A new beginning for our SM community.

[AlexDest]

You know, letting other people rate files from a 1-100 difficulty makes it subjective and hard to determine (unless you use mathematics to determine technique, the bpm of the file, intensity, etc). The Notes Per Second system rating for difficulty is objective and easier to tell what files you are going to experience with the patterns it has.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Kraezymann

I mean banner ads when I say ads, like what FFR used to have. A site like that is probably going to cost money, and you can't necessarily rely on donations alone.

When I said "thoughts" I didn't mean "thats my idea, discuss it now." I meant how is the site going to be paid for? Now, and in the future? I'm just curious about it, not trying to antagonize

Even though this is an issue, it's an issue better left discussed by the people potentially paying for it. I think if someone is going to pay for the site with someone else, money wise it shouldn't be important unless someone plans to contribute. I do agree if advertisements are needed that they could be suggested, but this is a more selective issue to be discussed by certain people.

Some sites will have a harder site getting advertisements than others. Dutch has payed for the server and site since 2007 (SMO.eu) which is ridiculous, but I don't convince him to get ads. It's really his choice. We do accept advertisements and have an email for that, but I personally don't go looking for it. If he hasn't and hasn't asked me to, then I rather not involve myself in his money.

But yea, I honestly don't know how open such topics like this will be. It's up to the people creating the site, which I assume are Shikari and Staiain.

[Kraezymann]

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

But yea, I honestly don't know how open such topics like this will be. It's up to the people creating the site, which I assume are Shikari and Staiain.

It doesn't exist yet, so I think it can be openly discussed. With such an open topic like this, it seems like they would appreciate any and all ideas brought to the table, about anything in particular.

And if they don't want to talk about it, then they can just let it be known

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Kraezymann

It doesn't exist yet, so I think it can be openly discussed. With such an open topic like this, it seems like they would appreciate any and all ideas brought to the table, about anything in particular.

And if they don't want to talk about it, then they can just let it be known

Very true.

What would be a great start to getting advertisements to support the cost of this site? I don't dabble in ads, so I wouldn't know.

[Bluearrowll]

Well before I start looking at files to rate, I would like some agreement upon whether we are going to do a difficulty rating of 1-100, or a NPS which would be really easy to calculate; just Notes / Time.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Originally Posted by Bluearrowll

Well before I start looking at files to rate, I would like some agreement upon whether we are going to do a difficulty rating of 1-100, or a NPS which would be really easy to calculate; just Notes / Time.

The NPS system fails at providing relevant difficulty details I would believe? Example: A song with JS (16ths) versus a song with 16th jacks. By reading a NPS scale, you couldn't tell which is more difficult... (I know nothing about this scale).

Any who, if pad packs are going to be a somewhat large part of this, I wouldn't mind looking through them for ratings (not sure if pad even matters within this era). But like BlueArrow said, nothing can really be done until a system is agreed on.

Another note, if ratings would be 1-100, I would expect a SM (theme) to be optimized for this right?

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Bluearrowll

NPS which would be really easy to calculate; just Notes / Time.

Really, this imo. You guys have a lot to do, and rating things shouldn't be taking more time (once again, imo). NPS is the easiest and most organized.

Originally Posted by Oni-Paranoia

The NPS system fails at providing relevant difficulty details I would believe? Example: A song with JS (16ths) versus a song with 16th jacks. By reading a NPS scale, you couldn't tell which is more difficult... (I know nothing about this scale).

Any who, if pad packs are going to be a somewhat large part of this, I wouldn't mind looking through them for ratings (not sure if pad even matters within this era). But like BlueArrow said, nothing can really be done until a system is agreed on.

Another note, if ratings would be 1-100, I would expect a SM (theme) to be optimized for this right?

Which is why I suggested that Fudge Factor. Voltage and patterns have to be taken into account.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

Which is why I suggested that Fudge Factor. Voltage and patterns have to be taken into account.

Can you post an example if you haven't already? I'm just curious to see the difference between the ratings rather than so much bickering.

[AsphyxZero]

Pure NPS, DCP system, Fudge Factor.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Oni-Paranoia

Can you post an example if you haven't already? I'm just curious to see the difference between the ratings rather than so much bickering.

If no one is bothered then yes. Can someone find the post from KBO that explained the fudge factor? Wasn't it by Patashu or something?

[Gundam-Dude]

At least calculating a file's density (so-to-speak) gives a much more plausible number to work with (e.g. it's impossible to rate files with multiple difficulties using DCP scale of 1-10 unless you bullshit the ratings). Currently only 6key has been utilizing NPS scale because the learning curve is so steep that beginners need a better estimate as to how hard of a file they can do. This applies to 4key if you're going to appeal to beginners with multiple difficulties.

Subjectivity would only fall in when you apply FudgeFactor™ (term coined by Patashu the mech dragon). Some (but not all) factors include: song length, hold usage, pattern usage (jacks, trills, hand bias, etc.), difficulty disparencies. The formula for calculating NPS is below.

total tap notes in song / [(time of last note - time of first note) + 1/8th note] = raw NPS (0-0.499 is rounded down, 0.5-0.999 is rounded up)

1/8th note is added to balance out extremely short songs. If a song is ended on a hold, the time used is the start of the hold.

Raw NPS just gives a base number to work from. In most cases, you're obviously not going to go with whatever number that's calculated. FudgeFactor™ applies pretty heavily pending on how the chart is (e.g. short but dense files give very high raw NPS in general, even with the additional 1/8th note being added to the equation). But even then the resulting number would usually only be bumped up/down by at most 3, speaking from personal use of the NPS scale for rating entire packs, unless the files are difficult or dumpy in nature.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Gundam-Dude

<Exactly what I needed>

Thanks GD. Which is why I said a difficulty like between 11-13 is better than difficulties ranging from 2(Xoon rating?) to 16(ITG rating, or even higher insome cases, like Alice's rating).

And thought ITG rating only applies to paddable songs, a song from tachyon that was 16 could be considered a 12-13 in that subjective old school rating, or a 2 or 3 in that Xoon rating (which I never figured out how it exactly worked, I saw it and was like huh?)

[who_cares973]

the thing about stepman stepping classes is that all we will do is give you information. its up to the person thats learning whether or not they apply what they learn. i can teach someone about colour theory, ACA, PR, layering schemes, mine usage but that doesnt necessarily mean that they will need to apply it into all their files. the same way english teachers teach you grammar usage and spelling and what not but you dont really follow the rules to the "T".

theres nothing wrong with making knowledge available. its when you start telling people that files need to be stepped a certain way thats wrong

[who_cares973]

stepfile philosophy 101

[Gellenduo]

As I said, I also think that if they want to adapt other people's techniques and whatnot it's up to them. However, this is propaganda, because these lessons are a showcase for ffr's perspective, and how simfiles can be made to make the people from ffr and its neighbours to enjoy them. If anyone from bemanistyle/OD/QED's YT channel/some other place where not a lot of people from ffr hang out at were to hold these classes, they would teach techniques that might not be seen as fun over here.
If you're not going to teach about every communities perspective on what they think is fun these classes will be biased, and that seems quite hard to do, at least in my opinion. Thus I think that you should just teach them the basics and let them adapt their own style without being influenced.
I just think that if you're going to merge all communities together ffr's perspective shouldn't be claimed to be more right than any other community's.

[who_cares973]

protip: just because we're on ffr that does not mean im representing ffr and its stepping mindset. as far as i know OD Bemanistyle and QED dont have any techniques that are implemented in stepfiles other than layering which is something that is universal amongst all styles of stepping.

i dont think we have the same idea when someone says stepping classes. also you're jumping the gun by assuming that all that will be taught is the way we step. any good stepartist is versatile and uses various techniques when the chances arise. whether its vocal jumps(mostly done in anime files aka OD) ghost notes and filler notes(QED simfiles) and basic straightforward streams and basic layering schemes(bemanistyle for the mos part)

also im pretty sure it wont be just people that have posted in this thread that will just be hosting classes. if anything there will be several representatives from all the major sites giving tips and general knowledge on stepping basics and techniques. so how about you give this a chance before you go drowning it with criticism

[ddrxero64]

Everyone's against the stepping classes because the words themselves sound wrong. But if done right, it can be good. Like wc said, providing knowledge is good, influencing people isn't. I had an example, but it probably went ignored/unseen.

Instead of saying no to something we haven't tried, how about we give examples? If anything, we should write these lessons and whatnot and have them approved. As for the approval system, I don't know how it'd work. I wouldn't even base the approval on how well it was explained, but on how unbiased it was written. If it's approved past that, then worry about how well explained the content actually is.

[Shikari]

This amount of (good) discussion while I was out is very good to see, guys. Now, let's do some tl;dr shit, if you don't mind:



To all of you discussing the use of the NPS system, I agree with Oni-Paranoia: Raw NPS system does not give a proper base to set up difficulties, since it doesn't take in account patterns usage. If the use of Fudge Factor (which I didn't know yet, so I'll look for the thread on KBO, unless someone can link it to me) can help setting up these difficulties, then why not using? And you guys must being wondering: Why 1-100? Seems a big number, I do agree, but it'll be easier to set up achievements based on this, and it'll be easier to not fall in subjectiveness when giving this ratings. I mean, let's take the 70-79 ranging, probably for JS files and not hard speed files. It'll be easier to tell which one is harder inside this ranging if one is rated as a 70, and the other 78. And, no, it won't be subjective, since we can use the Fudge Factor, plus patterns comparison because, in my honest opinion, people get used faster to Jumpstreams than to Jacks. There are exceptions, yes, but I believe it's true. And we can all discuss this new system further more because, believe me, an unificated system for KB files and a Tier Points/ranking system will atract a great number of players, looking for something competitive and challenging, since it takes years to be a good Stepmania player, we all know that. To finish my opinion, what I think would be great is to reunite players and stepmakers to come up with a good way to rate these files, then maybe bringing up to public for more opinions.
---

Originally Posted by customstuff

Hey Shikari, I'm up for making the Dumpstep pack compatible with this if you're interested. It won't be released too soon really, but if you want you can help with difficulties and stuff?

Please, do that. I appreciate that you came up with it on your own, without anyone asking, really. If you can do it, I'll add it to the Tier Points system.
---

Originally Posted by Kraezymann

And if they don't want to talk about it, then they can just let it be known

About the advertisement idea, Krazeymann, I do agree that it's a good idea. But, since it seems like we're going to use stepmania.com website as our new "home", it'd be good to discuss this with the SSC dev team, who's in charge of this website. But, using ads as a way to raise some money for server/site maintenance is a good thing, in my point of view.
---

Originally Posted by Oni-Paranoia

Another note, if ratings would be 1-100, I would expect a SM (theme) to be optimized for this right?

Yes, since I don't think either SSC or 3.9 can "support" 50+ difficulties. Since you're willing to help with themes, you can help SSC dev team with that, right?
---
Gellenduo, I said I want to bring the FFR's idea back to the life, but I didn't mention that would be ONLY for keyboard players and stepartists, and people from FFR. Since all this is about an unificated community, of course I'll ask people from OD, Bemanistyle and KBO some help. I consider them separated "categories" because of a multitude of reason: Stepping style, required skills to play, number of players, since we have people who play pad, but not KB; people who play KB, but not pad; people who play OD's files, but aren't aware of keyboard challenging files and pad files, aside of DDR games; people who play solo, and don't play singles anymore. See? They're sorta separated, even being part of the same game. But, like Carlos said, we don't want to tell people what's right and what's wrong about stepping files, we want to give to people interested in making charts hints and techniques to actually create these files. It's like teaching art for a kid: You can teach Surrealism techniques, Cubism techniques, Impressionism techniques, and so on, but it's up to THIS KID what he/she will use and what style he/she will adopt as his/her own, do you understand? And having more stepartists will be interesting for stepmaking communities, because it'll mean more files, more packs and more options for players to enjoy Stepmania.


Sorry, really sorry for being so much talkative. If any of these things aren't clear, lemme know, I just woke up from a 4 hours sleep, haha. but, it's really great to see people giving ideas and actually helping to create this new community.



Edit: Gellenduo, I payed more attention to the final lines of your post and seems like you took this idea almost completely wrong. The idea was originally made in FFR, yes, but I NEVER, I repeat, I NEVER said FFR was more right than other communities. I just thought it'd be a cool idea to keep the stepmaking community on movement, and when I say "stepmaking community", I mean the WHOLE community, because people don't only play keyboard files.

[Kraezymann]

SSC goes up to 99. I have a Supa Dupa Fly pad file that hits 99, so I think that should be okay

[Oni-Paranoia]

Originally Posted by Shikari

Yes, since I don't think either SSC or 3.9 can "support" 50+ difficulties. Since you're willing to help with themes, you can help SSC dev team with that, right?

If nobody minds I'd be more than happy too. I've done a lot of theme work in the past, but like my courses and other knowledge, I don't brag. XiaoUnlimited definitely should be contacted for this as well.