Which stepchart, to you, is as close to perfect as it gets?

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by ilikexd

Oh yes, please do, stargroup. I'll go out right here and say that I don't think simfiles can be considered an art form.

I'm not well-versed in philosophy of art, so I'm gonna see if I can do any kind of rough description based on my intuitions

the reason why we see music as a form of art is that we can take base associations (how certain textures/chords/etc invoke certain feelings/emotions/thoughts) and transform them into highly structured, intelligent, complex works. someone who understands music well can take an example of a music piece that would be considered fine art can explain and extrapolate a lot of characteristics and patterns that demonstrate the artist's/artists' technical abilities and intelligence as well as creative thinking, and in some cases explain how it's influential and historically significant

and that's in a sense what notecharting is. you take the patterns that you can identify within the music and how you interpret the music and describe it with the notes. different people hear music differently, and if you can identify these things and understand the music better, chances are you can demonstrate this understanding through notecharting. in addition, it is a game that you can break down to explain how the different experiences associated with the game invoke certain feelings/emotions/thoughts, so it has aesthetic value here as well. this makes it parallel to music in many ways, so I tend to consider this an art form

for a lot of people, one reason why they discredit it as art is because of how specific and limited the medium seems, but there's one important thing I've learned about art: art mediums with many limits can actually be more impressive. from a local level, 4k has more artistic potential than 6k. the reason for this is because 6 keys means you need 3 fingers on each hand, and due to more limited and difficult coordination, it is more difficult to associate certain patterns to relevant ideas. as much as I advocate 6k and how much fun it is, I'm speaking more in terms of what has been unexplored and competitive limits. many charts in 6k can be converted to 4k but not vice-versa. on a more universal level, less restrictions on art means that we have higher expectations for what the art delivers. more restrictions means that when we do encounter a creative concept, it is easier to identify and makes us realize what we thought was limited may not be so simple in the first place. a lot of retro games are unique, nostalgic, and highly creative, but there are fewer examples in proportion when it comes to games on modern platforms, despite the higher potential and limits (though this is not the only factor that contributes to this phenomenon)

[stargroup100]

omfg choof plz LOL

[Wayward Vagabond]

hey sg why are you dodging my question

[stargroup100]

Maybe if you got on Skype I'd tell you

[kmay]

i really enjoy dot matrix hero

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

for a lot of people, one reason why they discredit it as art is because of how specific and limited the medium seems

Yeah, this is more or less what I mean. You're being bound by one specific artistic work; every single thing you put in the stepchart is because of something another artist already created ex nihilo in his/her music, but you aren't free to create absolutely anything in the stepchart because you'd end up with wrong BPMs, misrhythms, offsyncness, ghost notes, etc; real artistic freedom isn't there. Sure, there is some freedom, and it'd be unreasonable for me to reduce this to absolutely nothing. The way two different stepartists would step a track would come out very different, and if they're both competent and experienced, often both will come out enjoyable. But there is (artistic) freedom in any activity. You're probably already familiar with this idea: the degree of creative freedom in a certain medium, and at what point the degree becomes so small or so great that it can or cannot be considered art. This, alongside with the fact that I think stepcharts should (or at least in practice are) always made with intentions, i.e. made for the sake of being enjoyable by a specific audience that they are being presented to (even if the audience is very wide, e.g. FFR) reduce how much I think stepping can be considered art. Very often invoked is the idea of "I make stepcharts for myself; that anybody else might enjoy them is just a bonus." I frankly disagree with this completely. It's not inherently a bad thing to do, but when people say that I honestly feel they nine times out of ten are just being dishonest, because what often is the case is that they DIDN'T just make it for themselves, they'd already publicly released it somewhere to be played, and this sentiment is just an excuse to artificially stonewall themselves from any criticism. I don't think it's like a piece of music, or a painting, or another typical artist medium where you can creatively create whatever and claim some parts or all parts to only have personal meaning, or that its meaning is esoteric and hard to grasp quickly. A stepchart is just not equivalent. When releasing it to, let's say, FFR or some StepMania pack, it should be done with the intention of appealing to those who are going to play those things; it's something that's meant to be consumed and enjoyable. So also in a certain sense it can be said that there is some degree of objective grading or judging of a stepchart based on how much the target audience enjoys it (controversial opinion). I suppose that entirely contradicts the idea popularity vs. critical reception.

[rushyrulz]

HAELEQUIN is fuckin perfect too btw

[Pizza69]

For some reason, Undiscovered Colors just feels absolutely amazing for me.

[DigitalS3r4ph]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

from a local level, 4k has more artistic potential than 6k. the reason for this is because 6 keys means you need 3 fingers on each hand, and due to more limited and difficult coordination, it is more difficult to associate certain patterns to relevant ideas. as much as I advocate 6k and how much fun it is, I'm speaking more in terms of what has been unexplored and competitive limits. many charts in 6k can be converted to 4k but not vice-versa.

I have to disagree with this. 4k charts can be easily converted to 6k charts, and 6k charts offer much more room for interpretations of the song, granting a wider platform for artistic detail in charts. My 6k chart for Angel Eyes, which is basically a conversion of a 4k chart by MacGravel, is living proof of that.

I also deeply disagree with ilikexd's sentiments on the overall mindset of a step author, although I understand that's his opinion, we're converging into heavily subjective territory here. I can't speak for step authors of today (Although I have had conversations with a few "New School" step authors), and while you might be correct in the judgement of their mindset, I can confidently say that a good majority of people I worked with and were friends with stepped purely for their own enjoyment (as well as others, which was seen as a plus). For some it was even a meditative process that helped get them through tough times. People would also step songs because they really enjoyed the song, and there wasn't a good chart out for it yet.

If you look at my library of simfiles, there's a pretty crazy variety in there and each song was stepped for one random reason or another. Hardcore Overdoze was stepped because I thought the song was sick, and there was only a pad chart available for it at the time. Summer Jam is another chart I stepped because existing charts for it sucked IMHO. I felt like I could do better and have more fun with my version of the chart, so that's why I stepped it.

Me Pregunto was stepped because a girl I liked at the time wanted to see a chart for it, and I wanted to impress her. It turned out to be a solid underground hit that was enjoyed by people who played SM in foreign countries.

And Then We Kiss was stepped because trollolol.

Ganon Slayer and Tetrinet are the ONLY examples I can provide where ilikexd's assumption is actually correct: I stepped those files only because I truly wanted to be recognized as a legitimate step artist. At that point my name was out there, and I was free to step whatever I wanted. I have a really crazy taste in music, which is reflected easily in my library.

I feel that Art, as a painter, writer, builder, dancer; whatever medium you choose, is PURELY subjective, and that's the beauty of it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and so if you enjoy Stepping Mans as a hobby and outlet for creativity, then you're doing it right.

But just like there are critics in the field of Arts, there are critics in Stepmania, and whether or not you want to cater to that audience is up to you. I feel like if you want to at least improve yourself however, you can see what others are doing, and then take whatever critique as additional tools to bolster your skillset in making charts.

There's a lot more to say on the topic too, but there are other factors that play into the overall chart package, like the graphics for example. That's for another day though lol.

EDIT: BTW, after 6+ years we're still having the same stupid discussion? Lmfao jesus christ you guys.

[cetaka]

lol

[cedolad]

Jackhammer Madness is pretty accurate.

[Dynam0]

Beyond Abilities by MagnaTrick

Kappa

[___________]

stepmix 1

[blindreper1179]

4k hot looking babes by necros is pretty amazing.

[Dynam0]

bmxant's speed racer

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by DigitalS3r4ph

I have to disagree with this. 4k charts can be easily converted to 6k charts, and 6k charts offer much more room for interpretations of the song, granting a wider platform for artistic detail in charts. My 6k chart for Angel Eyes, which is basically a conversion of a 4k chart by MacGravel, is living proof of that.

I used to think this too. then I tried to convert certain charts and found them nearly impossible (drove through ghosts to get here, one of my unreleased lucky star charts, maybe not impossible but very hard to do with chords all night, robotomy very difficult as well, etc). I'm not saying you can't just move notes around make them 6k charts. I'm saying that there are techniques that some charts use that can only be done in 4k and not 6k due to the nature of the technique

just because you gave me one example of a successful conversion that does not prove that all conversions are possible. keep in mind you're talking to the person who led the odi2 6k conversion pack, a guy who converted most of his own charts, and eventually advocated 6k play enough to get a moderate number of people in this community to start following suit

Originally Posted by DigitalS3r4ph

EDIT: BTW, after 6+ years we're still having the same stupid discussion? Lmfao jesus christ you guys.

and we still have creationists and homeopathy. it doesn't matter how stupid something is, if it's something that few people will understand on their own, we will have to explain/teach it until the end of time

[DigitalS3r4ph]

Maybe it's just a puzzle that you simply couldn't solve, or the chart in question required a different kind of mindset to properly convert. What you're doing is conceding to failure and that's a cop out. I'm still not convinced. And I know who you are. :P

EDIT: For the record, I'm not doubting that you cannot correctly convert a 4k chart to a 6k one and make it have the same feel, but I do doubt it when you say that one cannot be created at all. Whether or not it's good is up to speculation and purely up to how well the person making that chart finishes the job.

[stargroup100]

in one particular case (drove through ghosts) it really is impossible

the climax section I wanted to employ a technique which, in a dumbed-down description, makes the player smash quads on large hits. however, there needs to be large chords in between these quads in order to fill up the space and feel full, but the chords can't be too thick or it just won't have much feel to it besides mindless smashing. as a result, there's a pattern regarding how large the chords in between should be, but also a pattern describing where there need to be spaces

in 4k it turns out the layering scheme works because the spaces occur where the chords can be smaller. in 6k, there's an overlap. you need a lot more of these spaces but that's also exactly where you need larger chords, so there's no way to satisfy both

when you try to do a conversion, either the chords feel way too thick to be able to make any sort of connotation, or the chords are too thin and aren't intense enough, or the contrast between the small and large chords is too drastic to match the feel of the song

I could make a totally different chart using a different layering scheme, but there's no way to actually use the techniques I employed in the 4k chart to a 6k conversion. I wanted to make this conversion quite badly too, because I wanted to see how it would turn out. unfortunately, I worked on it on and off for about 3-4 years before giving up

[DigitalS3r4ph]

I feel like it should be fairly obvious that you can't necessarily employ the same kind of layering techniques to a song's 6k chart as you could with a 4k because they are two different types of playstyle. If that is what you were getting at, then I misunderstood the original context of your post.

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

HAELEQUIN is fuckin perfect too btw

hi19 and i had to meet up in real life when we stepped this