07-6-2018, 06:34 PM | #1 |
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Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
I'm currently working on adding a few more metrics to the extended statistics of every files, with the help of PrawnSkunk to validate and integrate those to the website. I'm reaching out to everyone who has some knowledge in machine learning and maths.
The first stats I finished coding are the NPS (split just like the current total nps by different timeframes like .3s, .5s, 1s, 2s, etc.) for individual receptors (left, down, up, right). My intuition is that a 4 NPS section like [1,2,3,4] vs [1,1,1,1] have absolutely different difficulties, the latter being much more difficult. So, do you think that those + the total NPS would give a significant entropy gain (or any equivalent depending on the model) in computing the difficulties of the files ? Any ideas/questions appreciated. |
07-6-2018, 07:36 PM | #2 |
longing
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Could you factor in the occurrence of certain types of notes during sequences? Just as an example, a 20 nps section of single note streams is probabaly much harder than a 20 nps section of dense js where every other note is a jump, so maybe you could find some ratio of single notes to jumps etc
Obviously 4 nps of repeated jacks is harder than 4 nps of a roll etc, but there's also things like 20 nps of streams that are rolly are generally easier than 20 nps of streams with lots of ohts |
07-6-2018, 07:40 PM | #3 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
I'd be interested to see its results. I would think that there would be three basic pattern difficulties - NPS, jacks, and predominately one handed patterns. The coding would have to be able to read a song like club, which has a max NPS of only 16 but is considered a 75 currently. I would also think a song should get a bump in difficulty if it alternates between all three of those categories, or combines them, instead of just focusing on one. (I think its part of the reason "Southern Cross" has seen such a drop in its recognized difficulty - modern stepcharts are much more likely to mix in more variety of complex patterns over just having speed).
There are certain charts I've always felt were underrated, and if you had a draft program sometime, I'd give you a short list to test. |
07-6-2018, 07:44 PM | #4 | ||
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
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Thanks for your questions |
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07-6-2018, 07:51 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
For the one handed, I was already thinking about adding the same kind of nps splits but with left hand and right hand, so all {1} or {2}, and all {3} or {4}. That was the one handed trilling bias would be accounted for in the metrics, along with jumpjacks on single hand. EDIT: I kinda get what you mean with the alternating patterns, but I don't think I agree. Would you have any other examples for it so that I can check them out ? A metric of variety in patterns sounds pretty hard to define mathematically, although not impossible; it would still be computed by using some kind of normalized variance on the different nps metrics. For example, if the nps-per-receptor has definite peaks vs spread out progression vs constant nps, etc Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 07-6-2018 at 07:57 PM.. |
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07-6-2018, 07:51 PM | #6 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
What I think would be interesting is to get a few players together and make two chart with various patterns in it - one set of simpler patterns and one set with more complex patterns (jump jacks and handstream, etc).
Have each player submit scores on different rates of the chart and plot the decline in scores as the rate increases until they reach a point of just mashing. Use math then to determine the relative difficulty of certain patterns over others. Using this method, you'd be able to compare "160 BPM handstream vs 190 BPM Jumpstream" for example, or "jumpstream with mini-jacks vs jumpstream without them." Using multiple players will help reduce player ability bias. |
07-6-2018, 07:52 PM | #7 |
longing
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
I meant more so like, denser jumpstream patterns, like suppose for example you had
2 (13) 2 (14) As a pattern in jumpstream - in order to achieve the same nps with streams the patterns would be have to be faster since you don't have the double notes, but equally "difficult" streams would just be like, a 4 note one hand trill based on the pattern of js etc, but that wouldn't make up the same nps Also consider a situation, a pattern that's just a jumptrill (12) (34) (12)... Is arguably the same difficulty as (1) (4) (1) (4) or even (12) (1) (12)... Despite different nps |
07-6-2018, 08:03 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
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07-6-2018, 08:15 PM | #9 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
Here, example 1. and 2. would have the same nps-per-receptor, even though their total nps would be different by a factor of 2. So yes, the difficulty would remain similar. Idk about 3. |
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07-6-2018, 08:23 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
At higher bpms the disparity in difficulty becomes a bit wider (e.g. 375 streaming pushes a speed threshold that 250 dense jumpstreaming doesn't quite match up with) but eventually you hit a point where they're both outside the realm of possibility to PA for almost everyone anyways (450 streaming vs 300 dense js etc.) Last edited by One Winged Angel; 07-6-2018 at 08:26 PM.. |
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07-6-2018, 08:34 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
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07-6-2018, 08:42 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Yes with the latter part of my post you can assume the same as noted in the former, or better yet just a fairly equal note distribution for all four notes. Barring bullshit like anchors or one hand trills or patterning that trivializes the section almost entirely (like a giant roll), the stream would still likely have a slight edge in difficulty. I'd be willing to bet there's a considerably larger amount of D7+ players that can maintain better PA on 250 dense js over 375 streaming, despite equal nps.
edit: Quote:
I want to say patashu's TS difficulty calc took into account receptor nps and the results were super memey, but maybe you'll do it better (or maybe I'm mistaken and it just involved nps as a whole) Last edited by One Winged Angel; 07-6-2018 at 08:53 PM.. |
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07-6-2018, 09:04 PM | #13 | ||
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
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I just want to mention again that although I only talk about nps, there are Many metrics that can be extracted with that. What I mean with "judging with patterns" is any approach that tries to match hardcoded patterns in a file (kinda like a regex) and applies metrics to that; I believe it can never take into account every pattern and variation, as opposed to nps metrics that can model speed and hand bias in a way that englobes all possibilities. |
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07-6-2018, 09:12 PM | #14 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
I'm not home anymore so cant post the response I want atm but I appreciate you striving to create something to tackle this problem rooted in objectivity (would love the same), just fearful of potentially poor results based on what others have tried to do in the past in a similar fashion
Also hi chooby I saw u infracted me but I cant open PMs on my phone but that's ok I probably deserved it ps I missed u Last edited by One Winged Angel; 07-6-2018 at 09:13 PM.. |
07-6-2018, 09:16 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
EDIT: Even though I appreciate any comment about how x or y previous solution worked or not, since there are quite a bunch of ways to approach the problem, I'd prefer if details to the mentionned solutions are linked to or explained thoroughly. Otherwise, I can only guess stuff about the implementations and that would lead me nowhere most likely. More maths and machine learning arguments would be much more productive imo. Last edited by xXOpkillerXx; 07-6-2018 at 09:21 PM.. |
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07-7-2018, 01:47 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
Quote:
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07-7-2018, 02:06 AM | #17 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
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07-7-2018, 02:18 AM | #18 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
i could explain myself but then i'd have to kill you
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07-7-2018, 02:24 AM | #19 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
man the only thing more cliche than that response would be if i had already written extensively on all of the relevant areas of discussion
then carefully organized said writing into a document that was made public then spent thousands of hours doing practical implementation of testing of said thoughts gosh that would really be the b side of a bollywood movie tier script |
07-7-2018, 02:41 AM | #20 |
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Re: Entropy Gain for per-receptor NPS
rong
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