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04-6-2016, 04:18 PM | #1 |
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A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Feedback greatly appreciated.
As the Hard Songs Batch nears completion, I would like to migrate from the 1-99 difficulty scale to 1-120 in order to expand and create additional breathing space for the upper echelon of files that will queued. In combination with this, I would also like to reinstate the 1-13 title scale, and attribute range AAA token unlocks (Otaku Speedvibe, Scarhand, Derby) to a complete title range. A few questions for players: I am unsure as to whether or not there is enough of a substantial gap from current 79 (beginning of FGO) to 89 (high FGO, min range for Derby unlocks) in order to reclassify 89 as the start of the 13th title (formerly FSO). Some players I've spoken to believe there is, others (myself included) believe there isn't. FSO is planned to be anything 100+ after the expansion occurs. If you agree, let me know. If you disagree, please state where you believe current FSO should begin. I am torn between current 92 (minus AQD, which should move down) and current 93. Ideally I would like to attribute the Derby token to the entire FSO range and nothing more, so if most players agree that 89s are enough of a gap to start the new title at, that would prove optimal. Otherwise, current 89s will probably shift to 95ish with either 92 or 93 becoming the FSO start at 100, and the Derby range will remain at 95+ (kinda shitty for my OCD because I'd prefer no overlap in title ranges but eh). Please let me know which starting point for the 13th title makes most sense to you. Current 79 (the starting point for FGO) will shift to 85. Current 66 (the starting point for FMO) will shift to 70. Both will remain the minimum unlock difficulties for Scarhand [Heavy] and Otaku Speedvibe [Oni] respectively. Very Challenging and Challenging ranges are what I'm currently toying with, and whether or not Scarhand [Standard] and Otaku Speedvibe [Heavy] should be awarded for AAA'ing any file in those respective ranges. Currently, Scarhand [Standard] is awarded two difficulty points ahead of where the VC range begins, and Otaku Speedvibe [Heavy] is awarded about midway through the C range. I would like feedback as to whether or not players would be alright with extending those unlock ranges slightly downward to the beginning of each title range (for reference, Scarhand currently is awarded for 58-65 and [Heavy] 50-57...after the shift it would look something like 56-65 and 46-55 using the current ranges [and 60-69 and 50-59 after the difficulty expansion]). Again, any and all feedback greatly appreciated. If you could touch upon all points discussed that would be great, but I could understand some lower division players not wanting to provide feedback on the high end and perhaps vice versa. Last edited by One Winged Angel; 04-6-2016 at 04:21 PM.. |
04-6-2016, 04:45 PM | #2 |
the Haku
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Wouldn't it be easier to work with the 1-99 difficulty range and move down the difficulty of everything to compensate the lack of space for the 89+ ?
Doing the difficulty for 1900+ songs from zero makes me want to faint because just playing each song once takes literally a month at a pace of 60~80 songs per day. I'm just curious of the reasons behind extending 1-99 to 1-120. Afaik, the less difficulties, the easier it is to properly judge them as well because the margin for error become smaller. e.g: Beginner/Easy/Very Easy: 1-20 Standard/Tricky: 21-30 Difficulty/Very Difficulty: 31-40 Challenging/VC: 41-50 FMO range: 51-60 FGO range: 61-70 FSO range: 71-99 Of course, you pick the numbers of how you want to make it work. Last edited by Hakulyte; 04-6-2016 at 04:52 PM.. |
04-6-2016, 04:54 PM | #3 |
Anime Avatars ( ◜◡^)っ✂╰⋃╯
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
We're going to be getting a good handful of songs that are more difficult than RATO.
The only way to slot them appropriately is to expand. At the moment, RATO and Death Piano are not rated appropriately, they should rightfully extend into the 100s. If we were to extend downwards instead, the low end would become incredibly compressed in order to slot the very difficult files appropriately. It's more work this way of course but it will make more sense at the end. I also want a somewhat normal distribution of files over the range covered. Most files in the game are in the C-VC range and thus that's an excellent midpoint for the scale. Shifting things downwards would result in the most populated difficulty being slightly ahead of the first third of the range, which is pretty ugly (and would result in a pretty barren upper half compared to an incredibly populated lower half) Last edited by One Winged Angel; 04-6-2016 at 04:59 PM.. |
04-6-2016, 05:01 PM | #4 |
Accuracy Player
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
With charts becoming not only more technically difficult as the skill of the general population of players increases but structurally more unique, the difficulty scale increasing would further provide more accurate ratings.
The stretching of the spectrum as well would relieve misplaced people on the leaderboards for getting a score on a chart that isn't on par with its rating (This happens more frequently around D2-D4). In other words, the increased scale would put players more accurately to where their skill is. FSO should be 100-120 in my opinion as the current 92-99 is where the upper percentile is currently at and those ranges would be stretched if/when the scale increases. 92s would not be stretched above 100 whereas DiS, Husigi, Miku, SoS, and Hetero would be imagined above 100 at the end of the increase (I cannot confirm this but I would believe those charts would definitely make the cut above 100 compared to Unconnected or System Doctor). I have more to say but I want to finish what I'm working on before I do so.
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04-6-2016, 05:21 PM | #5 |
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
This difficulty overhaul will definitely improve the accuracy of leaderboard standings. Since skill rating and levels are difficulty-based, Trumpet and I are planning to release a skill rating algorithm update, which combined with the overhaul will mean lots of shuffling around in ranks.
Last edited by PrawnSkunk; 04-6-2016 at 05:23 PM.. |
04-6-2016, 05:25 PM | #6 |
Anime Avatars ( ◜◡^)っ✂╰⋃╯
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
but listen here u lil shit answer my questions (heidy)
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04-6-2016, 05:45 PM | #7 |
the Haku
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Well, I agree with that system then. Looks like you're already a little ahead implementation-wise as well with leaderboards. I think you will be able to answer your own questions while working on it tbh.
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04-6-2016, 05:53 PM | #8 |
FFR Veteran
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Is 1-99 for 2k songs REALLY not enough to work with?
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04-6-2016, 05:55 PM | #9 |
Anime Avatars ( ◜◡^)っ✂╰⋃╯
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Potentially extending AAA token ranges downwards slightly compromises the skill level needed to have obtained them previously. I would much prefer getting feedback as to why this may be a bad idea now instead of just making the shift and having people complain after the fact (which would be an inevitability).
Last edited by One Winged Angel; 04-6-2016 at 05:55 PM.. |
04-6-2016, 06:02 PM | #10 |
FFR's Resident Trashpanda
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
I think it would depend on how far downwards they were shifted, if it's something like 1-2 points or very close to, I don't think it's a big deal.
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04-6-2016, 06:28 PM | #11 |
Digital Dancing!
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
I agree with your assessment of the current 92 being the start of the FSO range in the new system.
Also, leave the home run derby requirement where it is for 20 minutes after you release the new system so I can quick go and unlock it. Thanks
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04-6-2016, 07:14 PM | #12 |
The Dominator
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
1-999 or bust
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04-6-2016, 07:55 PM | #13 | |
Private Messages, please.
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
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04-6-2016, 07:51 PM | #14 |
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
in terms of division placements for tournaments, heavy, scarhand (both) and oni tokens are sort of heavily tied to division placements for d3+, like getting the token has always been sort of the benchmark measure. if you move the unlock requirements down a bit you have to decide whether or not you want to keep it like that (i.e. you'll be moving the division boundaries down a bit too), or whether you want to keep the division boundaries where they are and instead argue that the new-fangled leaderboard thingamabob thingy-thing is enough to determine division placements accurately enough without using those tokens as a yardstick.
having thought about it for a bit, i wouldn't be too opposed to moving the division boundaries for d3 and 4 down a bit, since in official tournaments in the recent past, d2 and d5 have always been by far the largest divisions. so if you move unlock requirements down a bit, d3 and d4 get bigger and d2 gets smaller, which evens things out. you still have the problem of what to do with a highly over-inflated d5. incidentally i feel like the d1-d2 boundary could do with a bit of a bump upwards oh and finally: i've read about the phenomenon of grade inflation, which is exactly what it looks like you're doing. here's my prediction: by 2060, it will be considered socially acceptable for humans to use robotic implants in their fingers for video gaming. in light of this, ffr difficulties will have expanded by then to include the full 1-999 scale with vrofl at the top.
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04-6-2016, 11:05 PM | #15 |
Under the scarlet moon
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Expansion proposition seems fine but I think derby range starting at new FSOs (100+) would be more appropriate. Because reasons.
1-999 seems good too. |
04-6-2016, 11:20 PM | #16 |
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
I wish it would've been like that from the start as it's quite a considerable bump in difficulty to shift from 89 to 92/93 now.
For reference, there's around 25 players that have an 89+ AAA but only 7ish with a 92/93+ AAA. I don't think it'd be fair to make the requirements significantly harder without removing the token from players that don't qualify for the new reqs, nor do I want to strip the token from anyone. Last edited by One Winged Angel; 04-6-2016 at 11:26 PM.. |
04-7-2016, 08:33 AM | #17 | |
Under the scarlet moon
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
Quote:
In any case the distribution of AAAs in the 92/93+ range should increase a bit with the increased number of songs due to the hard batch. |
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04-7-2016, 01:07 AM | #18 |
Vophie
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
I don't really see a downside to expanding other than the amount of work needed to do so. Also the possibility of "expansion" becoming a norm.. kinda like what zap mentioned. In time we will thirst for harder files, and eventually expand again, and again. But tbh that seems fine.
About the token thing... it's kinda like pianocore. and that other token.. I don't remember them quite well, but they require % amounts of fc/aaas and as we add more files to the game, the amount of charts needed to be aaa'd/fc'd increases, and if you aint played ina while you will fall under the required amount. I'm not sure how that's being handled currently, or if it's even still an issue BUT 1. I wouldn't mind losing a few tokens if I no longer deserve them. Times are changing, ffr is becoming more and more challenging and the average player's skill cap has increased with it. It'd be an incentive to keep playing and eventually become a better player to achieve those lost tokens once again. It also wouldn't be fair to newer players who have to work harder for the tokens that I got before the new requirements. 2. I worked hard for those feats.. You think I wanna AAA club again? There have been no indications of the tokens we unlock having the potential to be locked once again. it wouldn't be fair to those who have already proved themselves worthy. I'm gonna stand by point 1. here. i know most of our community consist of vets, but we do need to cater to future players, and not give older players any "special" treatment. ;;;
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04-7-2016, 09:22 AM | #19 | |
Digital Dancing!
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
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Back when I was a wee lad, the requirements for unlocking Oni kept changing and becoming harder. Back in 2011 or whatever, None Would Escape and Novo Mundo were valid unlocks for Oni and I had flagged them both, but could not AAA, despite my best efforts. Through gradual change of requirements, it kept "running away" from me, and I was trying my hardest to chase it. By the time I AAA'd Novo Mundo and None Would Escape, they no longer unlocked the token. Eventually I caught up with it on a lucky Largiloquent Dithyramb run two years later, and many other qualifying AAAs followed in the next few months. (There is a similar story for Scarhand [Heavy] btw.) Point being: shit changes, just gotta roll with the punches. I'm not necessarily in favor of revoking someone's token that they legitimately earned during a time in the past, and I would not lobby for removal of Oni from some D4 yokel that unlocked it on NWE in 2011. To be quite frank, token requirements shouldn't be screwed with that much anyway. Leave derby where it's at relative to the new system, and if you want to come out with some 100+ shit, make a new token for that. (And I'm going to regret saying that because it will be yet another one that I will never earn...) After all, there is a significant skill gap in AAA-ability between the two difficulties in question (25:7). I'm ok with making some tokens slightly easier and screwing with the division system a bit, since it's obviously not a perfect system anyway, but anything that would cause dramatic changes should be handled differently.
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Last edited by rushyrulz; 04-7-2016 at 09:25 AM.. |
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04-7-2016, 01:41 AM | #20 |
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Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties
I'm not too concerned with how many levels are in ffr tbh. Like I think you can make a reasonable scale starting from 1-10, 1-40, or 1-120, or 1 for every single song rated in order of how hard each song is. You do you, I know that you'll take good care of the difficulty system <3
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