Marriage

[Relambrien]

I caught a snippet of a CNN broadcast about declining marriage rates in the U.S.--rates are 20% down in the last ten years--just now. Following that, there was a discussion about why this could be, what are the repercussions, etc. Now, that was a CNN thing and I know the Internet doesn't like CNN, so what are your thoughts on this?

Here's what I'm thinking. At least one half of marriages in the U.S. end in divorce, and that's deterring younger couples from marrying. What's the reason for this? I don't think a less-responsible society combined with needs for instant gratification are completely the problem, rather, I think people's standards have risen a lot.

Think back to before the 1920s in America, casual dating was almost nonexistent. You had one relationship with one person your entire life, and that was the person you married. Even if there were arguments and strife, your oath to God necessitated that you remain together and forced you to resolve the issue.

Then the 1920s came along and people began to have casual relationships--dating didn't mean you would marry. With this, people had a choice about who they could have relationships with so they began to expect more. If a relationship wasn't working out, end it and find a better one.

I think now that trend is working its way into marriage. The whole "oath to God" thing isn't nearly as important, and with the accessibility and social acceptance of divorce, ending marriages today could possibly be compared to ending dating relationships from the 1920s. People get into a relationship and it's working out, so they get married, but then problems arise. However, rather than work 100% to solve these problems--and if they're irreconcilable, live with them--just get a divorce instead. The end result is a much higher divorce rate that turns away younger couples from the concept of marriage.

I've also heard assertions that cohabitation rather than marriage gives an economic benefit, but I can't honestly say I know anything about that. Additionally, some people claim that the lack of a formal "marriage" decreases stress in a relationship, since there's no set rules or standards to adhere to, thus making problems easier to solve.

What does marriage give, anyway? A chance for couples to express their undying love through a formal joining under the eyes of God? If that's it, then why do couples -need- a formal ceremony to know they love each other dearly? Is God used as an omnipotent third-party, giving validation to the couple's claims of devotion?

What do you all think? Should marriage be as important as it is traditionally considered, or is this decreased focus a good thing for society?

[Izzy]

It could have to do with how much easier it is to get around and see more people now. Communication has grown so much over the last 10 years. People don't seem as religious anymore as a whole country.

[devonin]

I think you'll find that divorce rates are actually falling in terms of meaningful statistics.

The rise in divorce rate stemmed from a large number of couples, married at a time when divorce wasn't really a social option, deciding to split up in later years when it was more acceptable to do so, coupled with at least one movement to start getting married younger.

People are waiting longer -to- marry, but in general, more newlywed couples seem to be staying together, likely -because- they are waiting longer than before to decide to.

[tsugomaru]

The rise in rates in divorce is related to women's right in some form another. It can't be coincidence that the divorce rates started increasing as soon as more and more women found jobs. Today, more and more women are entering the work force and they are getting ever so much closer to equal pay. No doubt that there would be conflicts in the family as both the husband and wife will try to strive to keep their job. If this argument can't be resolved, than a divorce is one of the ways out of it. It's probably also why families are getting smaller and smaller nowadays because if a couple have too many kids, the relationship can grow complicated because one of the two will have to give up their jobs in order to look after the children.

~Tsugomaru

[Relambrien]

@Izzy

I can understand how a decrease in religious feelings could result in marriage being less important, but how does improved communication result in a decrease in religious feelings?

@ Devonin

It isn't so much divorce rates that I wanted to focus this discussion on. I realize a large chunk of my post was dedicated to divorce, but that was to give an explanation as to why marriage rates are decreasing. I'm talking about the number of couples getting married, not necessarily staying married. You said that people are waiting longer to marry, and I'm assuming you implied that that is the reason for a decrease in marriage rates, but could you elaborate on that specifically?

@ Tsugomaru

While I can understand what you're saying, it seems sort of...far-fetched to blame increased divorce rates (on a larger scale) and declining marriage rates on the struggle for women's rights. Also, I doubt that occupation conflicts are the result of -too- many divorces, though I agree there are probably quite a few.

[tsugomaru]

But they do contribute quite a bit. As I said before, as women rights increased, so did divorce rate. Something about the two should be related, I find it difficult to believe it's coincidence.

Also, in no way or form am I saying women's rights are terrible because they increase divorce rates, it's just one of the reasons why they are.

~Tsugomaru

[sarahxjane]

I do not believe in marriage.
I have never dreamed nor wished to become married.

This could be because my parents were never married or my own views or both.

I find it to be a waste of time and money. It is merely a piece of paper and a special day in the end of it all. Both families dish out thousands of dollars for a big get together for the couple. I could care less if it religious. Vows are made and broken all the time. Just because a couple is married does not mean they will not cheat or what not.

I believe that if a couple is happy, whether they be the same gender or not, just being together should be enough. People can see your happiness and love without having to announce it to the entire world.

As for divorce, it seems like marriage is becoming less about couples in love and more about what is beneficial to both parties. Teenagers generally become married if they have a child. Celebrities become married to gain publicity. They are making a mockery out of what is sacred to those to believe in it.

I just don't see the point.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

@Izzy

I can understand how a decrease in religious feelings could result in marriage being less important, but how does improved communication result in a decrease in religious feelings?

I didn't say that for i used periods I guess that comment would go better with the first sentence.

[Relambrien]

Ah, sorry, I took your post to mean "The country is less religious as a whole because it's easier to get around and see people, along with improved communication."

[Zythus]

Its no suprise really. I argue in the contemporary soceity that the prerequsite relationships before marriage do not prevail long enough to flower into marriage.

Personally, I would not even consider "love". I have no interest with the pointless intricacies that comes with the package.

[darkness1477]

i think the media is to be blamed at least partially because they have downplayed the importance of marriage and it makes divorce seem like an outlet for marriage and many peopl don't want to have to expierience the pian of being divorced so they just avoid it altogether and the decrease of religion as an esssential part oif peoples lifes makes sex before marriage nt seem as a bad thing so why get married to have it seeing as you have to make a commitment when so many people are scared of commetment or just want to enjoy life to the ffullest which also stems from a decrease in religion since people are focused on life now ansd not the afterlife which has been happening more and more ever since the reniasance (i suck at spelling)

[justaguy]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

What does marriage give, anyway? A chance for couples to express their undying love through a formal joining under the eyes of God? If that's it, then why do couples -need- a formal ceremony to know they love each other dearly? Is God used as an omnipotent third-party, giving validation to the couple's claims of devotion?

Marriage gives definition and security for most couples. It's not really a chance to express their undying love, it's more an extension of it. Why do couples need a formal ceremony? It's tradition. You can't simply disregard tradition without being under the scrutiny and criticism of those around you. God really isn't a defining factor in the process of marriage, just an influence.

Originally Posted by devonin

I think you'll find that divorce rates are actually falling in terms of meaningful statistics.

The rise in divorce rate stemmed from a large number of couples, married at a time when divorce wasn't really a social option, deciding to split up in later years when it was more acceptable to do so, coupled with at least one movement to start getting married younger.

People are waiting longer -to- marry, but in general, more newlywed couples seem to be staying together, likely -because- they are waiting longer than before to decide to.

Okay, what statistics, if any, are you basing this off? You're making incredibly broad generalizations. Personally I think you're speculating in the wrong direction with regard to divorce rates.

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

The rise in rates in divorce is related to women's right in some form another. It can't be coincidence that the divorce rates started increasing as soon as more and more women found jobs. Today, more and more women are entering the work force and they are getting ever so much closer to equal pay. No doubt that there would be conflicts in the family as both the husband and wife will try to strive to keep their job. If this argument can't be resolved, than a divorce is one of the ways out of it. It's probably also why families are getting smaller and smaller nowadays because if a couple have too many kids, the relationship can grow complicated because one of the two will have to give up their jobs in order to look after the children.

~Tsugomaru

I actually agree with a large part of this. Increased divorced rates can be attributed to the idea that women are becoming more prominent figures in society. Because of this movement, traditional roles that once existed in family structure have dissolved and defining roles in marriages and parenting are really up in the air. While I don't think this is necessarily the only factor, I definitely feel this is a contributing factor to increased divorce rates.

Originally Posted by sarahxjane

I do not believe in marriage.
I have never dreamed nor wished to become married.

This could be because my parents were never married or my own views or both.

I find it to be a waste of time and money. It is merely a piece of paper and a special day in the end of it all. Both families dish out thousands of dollars for a big get together for the couple. I could care less if it religious. Vows are made and broken all the time. Just because a couple is married does not mean they will not cheat or what not.

I believe that if a couple is happy, whether they be the same gender or not, just being together should be enough. People can see your happiness and love without having to announce it to the entire world.

As for divorce, it seems like marriage is becoming less about couples in love and more about what is beneficial to both parties. Teenagers generally become married if they have a child. Celebrities become married to gain publicity. They are making a mockery out of what is sacred to those to believe in it.

I just don't see the point.

The only reason you actually believe what you do is simply because of what you stated at the beginning of your post:

This could be because my parents were never married.

You've witnessed it work, and you think it'd work the same for you. However, judging by your tone you aren't very open minded about the issue. I'd assume your parents came to a mutual understanding regarding the issue of not being married, and simply didn't find it necessary for them to engage themselves in it. Some couples require the satisfaction behind marriage to feel like they are truly a couple, hell, you might even need this. I wouldn't waltz into a LTR with preconceived notions regarding the necessity of marriage because it may not suit it.

I believe that if a couple is happy, whether they be the same gender or not, just being together should be enough. People can see your happiness and love without having to announce it to the entire world.

Believe it or not, some people may disagree with you.

As for divorce, it seems like marriage is becoming less about couples in love and more about what is beneficial to both parties. Teenagers generally become married if they have a child. Celebrities become married to gain publicity. They are making a mockery out of what is sacred to those to believe in it.

This is completely backwards. Maybe you're functioning in the past, or something. One reason for increased divorce rates is the pursuit of love. Love has essentially redefined marriage from being "what is beneficial to both parties," or from "marrying for the child," to pursuing an ideal counterpart. Because divorce has become a lot more socially acceptable, this is happening more frequently than in years past. Additionally, referencing tsugomaru's point earlier in the thread, the issue of redefined gender roles can be heavily attributed to increased divorce rates. I read (sorry, I don't have the source) that groups of women in Europe are marrying significantly less to pursue their career. Women already married may be under the same pressure to pursue a career while simultaneously raising a family. I feel most of these factors mentioned can be attributed to increased divorce rates.

[Grandiagod]

Everyone's operating on the basis that divorce is a thing to be avoided, completely overlooking the benefits of divorcing someone that you're not compatible with.

[devonin]

Personally I think you're speculating in the wrong direction with regard to divorce rates.

And yet you say

divorced rates can be attributed to the idea that women are becoming more prominent figures in society. Because of this movement, traditional roles that once existed in family structure have dissolved and defining roles in marriages and parenting are really up in the air.

Which is basically an explicit defense of my supposition of 'Divorce rates look higher because people who are already married are getting divorces because it is now more acceptable to do so thanks to the changing gender roles in society, but at the same time, already being aware of this shift, people are waiting longer to marry, and thinking harder about whether they want to marry etc. and thus newlyweds seem to be getting divorced less'

Everyone's operating on the basis that divorce is a thing to be avoided, completely overlooking the benefits of divorcing someone that you're not compatible with.

Well, as to this: I don't attach any religious or spiritual significance to the institution of marriage, and the state has plenty of legislation to extend marriage benefits to unmarried couples that live together, so I could take or leave the whole institution.

Fun Fact: It seems like simply cohabitating with someone of the opposite sex long enough will automatically make you common-law, but if the person you're living with is the same gender, you have to show (unspecified as to how) that you're actually in a sexual romantic relationship first.

[darkness1477]

divorce may have some benifits but it is supposed to be used as a last resort and some people just don't want to put forth the effort involved with having to spend your entire life with a person and just get divorced

[sarahxjane]

Originally Posted by justaguy

You've witnessed it work, and you think it'd work the same for you. However, judging by your tone you aren't very open minded about the issue. I'd assume your parents came to a mutual understanding regarding the issue of not being married, and simply didn't find it necessary for them to engage themselves in it.

My dad is unable to get married due to the fact that he has been married to a woman for over 20 years now.
They have been separated for that long, since my parents were together for that long.

I think I am being open minded about it. Perhaps even hypocritial.
I'm happy that my brother is finally getting married.
Also, my dad and his girlfriend are planning on it. He just needs to track my step mother down.
( I've never met her and she doesn't know about me )
I am excited for all four of them but not for other people.

*Shrugs*

I honestly don't care how people view this.

My opinion on marriage overall still stands.
Even if it is deemed ridiculous or contradictory.

[justaguy]

Originally Posted by devonin

Which is basically an explicit defense of my supposition of 'Divorce rates look higher because people who are already married are getting divorces because it is now more acceptable to do so thanks to the changing gender roles in society, but at the same time, already being aware of this shift, people are waiting longer to marry, and thinking harder about whether they want to marry etc. and thus newlyweds seem to be getting divorced less.'

Like I said, there are multiple factors that contribute to changes in divorce rate. In retrospect I should have reread your post after articulating my points and maybe I would've made the same connection, but I still refute the idea that divorce rates will forever decrease. I think once this peak in divorce dies down, divorce rate will fluctuate. This is pure speculation of course, but I'm basing it on the fact divorce has become, for the most part, socially acceptable. Thinking about what you said, it makes sense to label the past few decades as the ultimate rise and peak of divorce rates.


man **** CT it makes me think about what i'm writing can i go back to trolling

[Tokzic]

no once you enter ct your mind is bound here forever and you cannot leave alive

I don't put much weight in marriage. I'm not a creationist, so the whole being-approved-by-God thing doesn't apply to me. And for people who aren't religious, why should marriage make your relationship any more valid? There's only as much meaning in these things as you instill in them - valuing your relationship is good, but if having a ceremony over it makes you appreciate it more, it begs the question why you didn't value your relationship that much in the first place.

As for divorce, it's not inherently a bad thing. As Grandi said, if you're unhappy with your marriage and you don't get out of it (like most people), you are effectively pissing your life away. Frankly, I don't believe anyone can enjoy one single exclusive person's company for their entire life. I have limited evidence, and this obviously isn't provable, but I'd bet that a large majority of marriages that last over a decade are NOT healthy, but blowing the commitment out of the proportion results in staying together anyway. Which is horrible.

If the divorce rate is going up, that's a good thing, in my opinion. Marriage doesn't mean anything extra, but choosing to end a bad relationship in spite of feeling trapped in it is a very smart decision, and the more people doing it, the better.

[devonin]

but I still refute the idea that divorce rates will forever decrease.

Good thing I didn't suggest that divorce rates would forever decrease then. I pointed out that we -see- an increase right now that I'm linking to "A normal divorce rate, plus the people who would have divorced before but couldn't because it wasn't acceptable" and suggesting that soon we will fall back down to "A normal divorce rate"

Just because on average people are waiting longer, and thus ostensibly thinking harder about it doesn't mean people won't still screw up, or have their feelings change later, or decide to seperate for other reasons. Just means that less people are rushing into marriage because it's "the thing you do" and are instead actually waiting until they are sure they want it.

[darkness1477]

divorce does have it's benifits but marraige takes work and more and more people arent willing to put forth the effort. it is possible to love someone all your life beause whatever atrracted you to them in the first place is still there you just have to work past the problems that are inevitable to arise since where just humans and wre arent perfect