Ingame Song Information

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

emulord brings up a good point with Token Whore. Under qqwref's system, wouldn't TW be rated at a 1 since everyone who has unlocked it clearly has the potential to AAA, even though it's obviously harder than all the other 1s?

Yeah, I guess we'd have to do that one by hand, since we have no people of the appropriate skill level playing that file. (Another question: if this is the case for a file, does its difficulty rating actually matter?)

The problem I see by doing this is this: what if you are considering a user's score that doesn't reflect his/her actual skill?

Yep, this definitely happens. I think this will even itself out though, because given two files that are equally tricky, about the same number of people will get a good score on A and a bad score on B as the other way around. If lots of people improve and have no problem getting a good score on A but can't do one on B, then maybe B really is harder to score on.

Also, how are you going to consider raw scores that are something like 4-1-1-0, when that score is obviously not going to be recorded on the high score tables? Where will you find scores like that?

Those scores aren't (and can't, really) be considered. Difficulty FCing should be a component of difficulty, though. If everyone can get 30ish goods on song A but has trouble FCing with good PA, and everyone can get 30ish goods on song B and has no problem FCing it, then I'd say A actually is harder.

Lastly, hypothetically speaking, if everyone were to improve overall, by what you are saying, will that lower the difficulty of a given file?

Only if they don't also get improved scores on the boundary files.

I think the best way to determine the difficulty is to have a fixed file which marks the bounderies between two different difficulties, and relatively compare which one seems harder or not.

I agree. There are definitely some considerations to picking these files, though; they have to be popular and old (so we get lots of data) and they shouldn't be too biased towards one specific type of skill. So, we wouldn't want something like Starlight for the lowest-VC cutoff, because doing well on that song is entirely contingent on being able to do the jacks.

[bballa48]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I think we need to move far away from this objective formula.

I don't think the current system of subjective rating is bad at all. The only thing I think it needs is some sort of panel of "experts" (not necessarily all the best players, but rather players of varying skill levels who play the game enough to give consistent feedback). Having 1 or 2 people rate the files, while relatively effective, I think is kinda giving the cold shoulder to the community.

For example, Club is an 87 for me and a 75 for others. If I and someone else who sucks at jacking rate it, is would cause an outrage.


Tldr; Same system, just with more judges.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Ingame Song Information

How is 101 Kittens a 9 and Mute City a 10?
Something is wrong with this system lol

[iironiic]

Re: Ingame Song Information

How is 101 Kittens a 9 and Mute City a 10?

This is why I don't like our current system. We are basing two different difficulty scales on two different files, and are now getting absurb ratings like this. That's why I think it's best to fix a file emphasizing a variety of patterns (like what qqwref is saying) to determine whether something is a 9 or a 10. Without looking at the songs list, I am willing to bet that Mute City Remix was an older file than 101 Kittens.

EDIT: 101 Kittens was released on 02-24-08; Mute City Remix was released on 08-24-07. Clearly, we see that between these two dates, people have been improving to the point that something that used to be a 10 should now be a 9. We still observe this today.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Not only are the patterns similar, but in 101 Kittens the 24ths are faster(?) and trickier(!), the jump sections are more difficult, and the song is longer.
IMO, 101K needs to be moved up, not Mute City moved down. The whole difficulty of n migrating into n+1 territory thing never should have happened. Back before I got oni I kept saying that I was never going to get it because the difficulties of songs kept getting bumped up and 11s were becoming harder and harder.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

criticisms without showing suggestion for improvement (like "this system is wrong lol") won't help anything.

obviously we aren't comparing difficulties of all 1000+ songs there might be flaw on this system. so this thread exists for reporting suspicious ones.

101 kitttens is long/hard to PA, yet doesn't require speed/stamina.
10 worthy overall, though.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

- choose all players who have played file A and file B;
- throw out players who haven't passed both files, or who have at least 100 boos on one (mashing is not representative of real difficulty);
- for each remaining player, give one point to the file they have a better raw score on, in terms of points missing from the AAA (or do nothing if the two raw scores are equally close);
- the file with more points is easier.

process 2 - on high 12-13 songs, most people have 100+ boos (also in general, 100 boo FC on 13 is better than FMO AAA skill-wise). needs some adjustment?

process 3 - which parameters do you use for the calculation (total score or just good/ave)? I think calculation like this is technically possible, we need to do this for either "all players (statistically, requires large # of n)" or "selected players (can be biased but consistent)".

[igotrhythm]

Re: Ingame Song Information

JX actually raises a valid point for process 3. Goods and avs impact raw and total score the same as percentage of points scored for getting a perfect (good is 50%, av is 10%). This is before combo is factored in, of course. However, while 11 boos = 0.8 goods in total score, 5 boos = 1 good in raw score.

Still, I like this idea, but to reduce server load and to exclude fluke runs, perhaps the sample should be all players who have played both songs at least 10 times each. Not good enough to give feedback on process 2, though.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Ingame Song Information

criticisms without showing suggestion for improvement (like "this system is wrong lol") won't help anything.

I said that and then I went on to say

The whole difficulty of n migrating into n+1 territory thing never should have happened. Back before I got oni I kept saying that I was never going to get it because the difficulties of songs kept getting bumped up and 11s were becoming harder and harder.

Solution: Quit putting such a high standard on n and just call it n+1. I can see why there needed to be a difficulty rearrangement after the avmiss fix/introduction of speedmods, but the difficulties of songs have continuously become lower than they should be where there's no justification aside from the players getting better IMO.

If the players get better, make harder songs that still fit into the set difficulty system, don't call an obvoius 10 a 9 (Yes Gene Gadget Zone, I'm looking at you) with the idea that you're making the game harder because in fact, the difficulty placement of some songs are just wrong (and I know this is still a w.i.p. and everyone's trying their hardest, especially jx). Or just let the players get better without tampering with the difficulty system.

What's happening is that new songs are being introduced at a lower difficulty than they should be and they become the new high standard for that difficulty. After that, more difficult songs get added to that difficulty and they become the standard. After repeating this process a few times, n+1 is the new n which just discourages players who are trying to get better and anyone who uses the difficulty system as a reference.

--------------------THAT BEING SAID------------------

I didn't really post much of a suggestion to the solution of the problem because I forgot to mention that I support qqwref's idea assuming all the problems and exceptions can be worked out. He seems fairly confident and educated on the topic and I think he believes that his system can be successful.
+1 qq.

EDIT:

101 kitttens is long/hard to PA, yet doesn't require speed/stamina.

subjective. It's a 1700+ note song, that requires stamina especially when the majority of it comes from 16th and 24th stream. It may not require a lot of stamina if you're used to playing longer songs like that, but compared to something like Mute City, it's clearly more challenging PA wise and stamina-wise (length).

Also, Mute City is listed as a 9 in the OP lol.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

process 2 - on high 12-13 songs, most people have 100+ boos (also in general, 100 boo FC on 13 is better than FMO AAA skill-wise). needs some adjustment?

Remember, FC isn't necessary. Anyway, on a 13 most players will have 100+ boos, and you'll only get a few data points, but each one will be enough to prove that the file is harder than the hardest FGO (probably Revo). Even on very high FGOs like Grist, many players will have <100 boos. You will get the correct difficulty as long as enough people have played to be able to compare to borderline files - even one person getting a decent run on RATO will show that it's harder to score on than the FGO cutoff. Having a relatively tight requirement lets us eliminate people who mash the entire thing (which generally gives goods proportional to number of notes, and might rate a file like RWOB harder than a file like RATO).

Don't forget, this method is not for microdifficulties (1-99 scale), it's designed for the integer 1-13 scale. It won't give an exact value for how tough a chart is, but it will group files into the 13 difficulty bins in a consistent, objective, and useful way.

process 3 - which parameters do you use for the calculation (total score or just good/ave)? I think calculation like this is technically possible, we need to do this for either "all players (statistically, requires large # of n)" or "selected players (can be biased but consistent)".

I was thinking raw score (1.0*good + 1.8*avg + 2.4*miss + 0.2*boo) mainly because it gives cleaner numbers. Total score in goods would be something like (1.0*good + 1.8*avg + 3.1272...*miss + 0.07272...*boo), not taking into account the combo bonus. And I really do think "all players who have played both songs properly" is good enough.


As for 101 kittens: I could definitely see this as VC, in terms of PA and AAA difficulty. It doesn't require a huge amount of physical stamina, but it definitely requires a lot of mental stamina to do well on because of the length and trickiness, compared to other 9s.

[igotrhythm]

Re: R1 - Actual Song Difficulties V2

Oni is an elitest token, no doubt, but maybe instead of changing the reqs or locking it, just let people unlock it anyway and come up with a harder token thats the new elitest token?

^ Posted Feb. 1, 2008.

Fast forward to Feb. 14, 2011. St. Scarhand is released, requiring an AAA on Reality to unlock.

Mind = blown.

[G.S.M]

Re: Ingame Song Information

A question about "Through the Martian Hell" song.

I know most Doom music was inspired by Slayer, Pantera,etc (not sure about this one)... but shouldn't it be in Arcade seeing as how it is from Doom?

[Silvuh]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Arcade is a little lower on the priority list, so any video game remix that's in a rock style will be in Rock, and any piano covers will be in Classical.

See also (Rock) Four Blocks Madness, (Classical) Tetris Remix, 600 AD in Piano, The Games We Played, &c.

[krunkykai22]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I lost my password so it took a while to reply to this crap.
I never said it should be FMO, I actually asked them to leave Radical Rat as FGO so I could AAA, then it started become INCREASINGLY difficult for me to not split goods on the jumping jacks, I can AAA EVERYTHING in that damn song but those jacks and I get goods up the wazoo there for no reason whatsoever. I think it's a clear cut FGO and have never said otherwise. It should be FGO.

And I've been complaining about Night and Day for god knows how long. That song is hard as shit and one of my worst FMO's. It's brutal from start to finish, with crazy bursts, weird patterns, asshole jumps, and an ending that makes many a man cry like a sissy. The song is hard.

Sorry to re bring up something that "may" have already been discussed and ended. Personally, my all time best on Rad Rat is a BF when the site went down. I compared Rad Rat to Frictional Nevada/Reality/LoLo/Tageri.

Rad Rat is by far, in my opinion, the easiest of that set group. Even comparing it to TTE it's still easier, imo. Having Rad Rat as the CUT off line of FMO and FGO is perfect if I may say so. That song is VERY tricky and it is a perfect example of what's to come with FGO's. I'd say leave it as an FMO.

[G.S.M]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Arcade is a little lower on the priority list, so any video game remix that's in a rock style will be in Rock, and any piano covers will be in Classical.

See also (Rock) Four Blocks Madness, (Classical) Tetris Remix, 600 AD in Piano, The Games We Played, &c.

Oh I see! Thanks!

Yeah I completely forgot about those other songs. :P