Ingame Song Information

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: Ingame Song Information

If you're jumptrilling rolls at that speed, then it's obviously going to land you goods without extreme precision in the late perfect frame.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Any rolls under 225 bpm have a chance of framer placements which force you to hit at least one 1-frame window if you want to AAA by jumptrilling. The further from 225, the more of those there will be, in terms of percentage. So stuff like Hajnal, Master Maid, Toxiferous Dystopia, and Skeletor will have plenty of 1-frame windows, and AAAing pretty much requires either hitting the rolls properly or having extreme luck ("extreme precision").

PS: Any roll of at least 112.5 bpm is technically possible to jumptrill and AAA... and any stream of at least 225 bpm can technically be AAA'd by hitting jumps. But I don't generally recommend this strategy.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Average percentage of max score or average score difference from perfect score can help determine ratings.

If we determine difficulty rating by people's scores (called statistical method), it will be take so long to get relatively accurate difficulties. I say at least n=5,000-10,000 is required.

I think it should be considered for difficulties as one of factors (along with technical factors like bpms, framers, tps) though, it's just difficult to compare the parameters between songs due to the number of players, release date, etc.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

If we determine difficulty rating by people's scores (called statistical method), it will be take so long to get relatively accurate difficulties. I say at least n=5,000-10,000 is required.

I think it should be considered for difficulties as one of factors (along with technical factors like bpms, framers, tps) though, it's just difficult to compare the parameters between songs due to the number of players, release date, etc.

Come on, you guys... I've already thought about stuff like this, that's why my proposal is different. This will not work and I don't know how many times I have to say this. If you randomly compare technical factors you will end up with a number that represents something roughly related to difficulty, but certainly doesn't represent what you want - a measure of how much effort and skill a typical real, human FFR player will need to get a certain score on the file.

Here is the biggest problem: even if you could make a formula like that, you would never be able to calibrate it. Exactly how hard is a 207 bpm anchoring pattern like 33[34]44, for an average player? Should the difficulty of a file like Crowdpleaser depend on the length of the file? How about a file like EHHS? (impossible to know, no, and yes) This is pure pseudoscience, and it's just going to be used as a silly justification of someone's opinions. You're never going to get a useful difficulty measure by looking at some formula, but only by looking at actual scores from actual players.


I'll outline my idea again. You compare two files by simply taking pairs of scores, the best score from the same player on each file, and comparing them by how far they are from the AAA (that is, PA). After you discard pairs that don't tell you anything useful (people who get over 100 boos on either file, people who haven't completed both files, people who have the same score on both, etc.), the file that has a worse score in >50% of the pairs is more difficult. A technique like this will produce a useful measure of difficulty, even in the worst case scenario, because it automatically gives a higher rating to files most players in the community have difficulty with.

[Darkbreezee]

Re: Ingame Song Information

This will not work

agreed here , well anyways , i guess the difficulty levels are well set.
but i'd like to see a rating that is kinda more precisely, maybe not even 1- 13
i mean the jumps between the difficulties beyond 10 are insane.
If u can easily AAA a lvl 10 u will still suck hard on lvl 12 songs.
(no argueing here guys , sorry if i repeat myself)

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I'll outline my idea again. You compare two files by simply taking pairs of scores, the best score from the same player on each file, and comparing them by how far they are from the AAA (that is, PA). After you discard pairs that don't tell you anything useful (people who get over 100 boos on either file, people who haven't completed both files, people who have the same score on both, etc.), the file that has a worse score in >50% of the pairs is more difficult. A technique like this will produce a useful measure of difficulty, even in the worst case scenario, because it automatically gives a higher rating to files most players in the community have difficulty with.

You have to consider player's advantage(there should be some bias for picking some players too), unlock requirement, # of players, release date, etc. how you define? If you can make a formula that makes sence for difficulties, it will be one of useful objective method. It's more difficult to determine the difficulties of easy files.

Also, it's almost impossible to make a formula for pattern difficulties but I still want to consider technical factors as a measure of difficulties (subjectivity etc but still).

[iironiic]

Re: Ingame Song Information

Is it possible to incorporate both ideas into one? I see pros and cons in the two ideas mentioned.

EDIT: If possible, can someone update the difficulties of the files with ?? in the 1-100 scale? I'm trying to figure out something using these values along with the ideas mentioned in this thread. Thanks!

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

player's advantage(there should be some bias for picking some players too)

Some people are better at one type of chart, some at another. Compare, say, GEP and D&D. If they are really equally difficult, the numbers should roughly cancel out. If most people are better at one chart than another, I'd say it really is more difficult.

unlock requirement, # of players, release date, etc.

Completely irrelevant to my approach. Players who haven't played both of the files don't get counted. That's where it differs substantially from the "count AAAs/SDGs/FCs" idea - you're not comparing statistics, but individual scores.

[emulord]

Re: Ingame Song Information

The only problem with that is when n is small. For something like Token Whore, nearly everyone who unlocks it will AAA. When someone doesn't AAA it, the difficulty might jump from 1 to 7 or something.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

No there're many problems other than that.

- It's still not easy to determine actual difficulty criteria, if you want to this completely objectively.
- If we can't get enough players, we need to get some trustworthy and active players with various skill level as control. They always need to do their best on their scores (if scores aren't serious, this method is quite useless).
- Basically we can't determine initial difficulties with that method.

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

- It's still not easy to determine actual difficulty criteria, if you want to this completely objectively.

What do you mean "criteria"? Isn't it reasonable to say that all VCs (for instance) should be at least as hard as some specific given song? That way you set a specific bar, and people know what to expect. You play a 6, you can expect that for most people it will be between the highest-5 cutoff song and the highest-6 cutoff song in difficulty.

- If we can't get enough players, we need to get some trustworthy and active players with various skill level as control. They always need to do their best on their scores (if scores aren't serious, this method is quite useless).

Sure, in the beginning a borderline song might be rated slightly higher than it should. But the big gain of a totally automated system is that it literally doesn't matter. If people end up getting better scores on the file in (say) a month or two, it will settle back down to the proper difficulty value without any intervention on your part. And if it doesn't, it was really that hard to begin with.

- Basically we can't determine initial difficulties with that method.

I think experience has shown that it's easy to determine an initial difficulty, plus or minus one, just by playing the song and roughly comparing it to other ones you know. And if you make a mistake on that, it again won't matter, because the script will automatically fix the difficulty in the future anyway. This is in sharp contrast to the situation now, where difficulties are regularly listed wrong, and then only the most blatant ones are ever fixed.

I would actually say that you cannot usefully place borderline files just by subjectively guessing how hard people will find the patterns. You have to actually have people play them.

[jimerax]

Re: Ingame Song Information

What do you mean "criteria"? Isn't it reasonable to say that all VCs (for instance) should be at least as hard as some specific given song? That way you set a specific bar, and people know what to expect. You play a 6, you can expect that for most people it will be between the highest-5 cutoff song and the highest-6 cutoff song in difficulty.

well, I just want to see the actual process.

1. pick all people (or some people) who have positive scores on both A and B?
2. compare average PA?

Also, how do you deal with non-pass, non-FC, mash-FC scores (100 boo cutoff ?)?

[qqwref]

Re: Ingame Song Information

well, I just want to see the actual process.

1. pick all people (or some people) who have positive scores on both A and B?
2. compare average PA?

Also, how do you deal with non-pass, non-FC, mash-FC scores (100 boo cutoff ?)?

I've posted the details at least once, but it goes like this:
- choose all players who have played file A and file B;
- throw out players who haven't passed both files, or who have at least 100 boos on one (mashing is not representative of real difficulty);
- for each remaining player, give one point to the file they have a better raw score on, in terms of points missing from the AAA (or do nothing if the two raw scores are equally close);
- the file with more points is easier.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Ingame Song Information

emulord brings up a good point with Token Whore. Under qqwref's system, wouldn't TW be rated at a 1 since everyone who has unlocked it clearly has the potential to AAA, even though it's obviously harder than all the other 1s?

EDIT: lol there really needs to be a scorewipe on token songs for people who haven't earned the token (excluding vrofl of course because that was public for a day).

[iironiic]

Re: Ingame Song Information

I've posted the details at least once, but it goes like this:
- choose all players who have played file A and file B;
- throw out players who haven't passed both files, or who have at least 100 boos on one (mashing is not representative of real difficulty);
- for each remaining player, give one point to the file they have a better raw score on, in terms of points missing from the AAA (or do nothing if the two raw scores are equally close);
- the file with more points is easier.

The problem I see by doing this is this: what if you are considering a user's score that doesn't reflect his/her actual skill? For instance, I still have 18-0-0-11 on He's a Radical Rat, but I haven't gotten a better score yet in spite of laziness and frusteration, but I know I can improve that.

Also, how are you going to consider raw scores that are something like 4-1-1-0, when that score is obviously not going to be recorded on the high score tables? Where will you find scores like that?

Lastly, hypothetically speaking, if everyone were to improve overall, by what you are saying, will that lower the difficulty of a given file?

EDIT: I also don't like the idea of determining the difficulty by the mechanics of the file. It brings to the same problem that people have different skills and weaknesses. Plus, what constitutes a file that's considered an 8 vs. a 9?

I think the best way to determine the difficulty is to have a fixed file which marks the bounderies between two different difficulties, and relatively compare which one seems harder or not. However there are a few problems to consider with this approach. Again, we need to consider differences with skills and weaknesses, but I think this could be remedied if we have more input from the community claiming which file is harder. Another problem is, which files should be the "fixed file?" That is something we need to figure out, but it seems that we have a general idea on this already.

EDIT2: I also see advantages in both approaches, so if necessary, we can consider both ideas and integrate them into one.