The Miss System: Part 3

[nestlekwik]

Alright. First off, sorry about the delay. I've been knee-deep in work, I'm in the middle of looking for apartments with my girlfriend and have been visiting relatives, so please excuse my absence. After once again reviewing the miss system threads it seems that the vast majority is still divided on the issue. Today I present actual solutions to the dilema in hopes to find the most popular one.

Since you people are still split on your decision, I have come to the conclusion that a mixed system would be the best solution. So, I have compiled the "offbeat" step rating.

Horrible timing window example (top to bottom) massively enlarged for easy viewing:
------------------------
<-----PERFECT----->
------------------------

<-------GOOD------>
------------------------

<----AVERAGE----->
------------------------


<-------MISS------->


------------------------



(rest of playfield)
<----OFFBEAT------->






------------------------
*The area above the stationary arrows would also have a similar PERFECT-GOOD-AVERAGE-MISS window.

The offbeat step works similar to the Beatmania system or a few of the more obscure DDR games. By pressing a key in the offbeat area or where there are no arrows on the screen, you are penalized but you are penalized about 75% less severely.

Offbeat Step
--------------
* -1 to the dance meter
* -5 to current base score
* -15 to end of song bonus
* Does not break current combo


If that still does not satisfy you, you can vote to keep the current system or to have the current timing window tweaked. By adjusting the miss system I assume you all mean something like this:
------------------------
<-----PERFECT----->
------------------------

<-------GOOD------>
------------------------

<----AVERAGE----->
------------------------


<-------MISS------->


------------------------



(rest of playfield)
NO INPUT RECORDED





------------------------

If you think none of these solutions are the best way to settle this dispute, vote other and please explain what the best system would be.

Thank you and please participate. You can leave votes and comments in this thread. Your participation will be greatly appreciated. This poll will run for 7 days, just like the others

[CMCAdvanced]

Now, I'm not saying that you're idea sucks (Well kind of :? )
But the offbeat system really doesn't work in dancing games.
In DDR pressing other arrows is something really hard not to do when there are no arrows. Some people need to press buttons to the beat of the song in order to do well. Others use the aforementioned method of keeping the beat in order to heighten their already disgusting skills (like my friend Rahkeem- Team member of SFSA www.ddrfreak.com look for his forum posts).

Anyways, tweaking the miss system should definitly be tweaked. A good idea would be to let people choose a difficulty that affects the timing window only for beginners. If you think this is a good idea just PM me allright.

Excellent. My plan WILL go as......planned.

[nestlekwik]

Now, I'm not saying that you're idea sucks (Well kind of :? )
But the offbeat system really doesn't work in dancing games.
In DDR pressing other arrows is something really hard not to do when there are no arrows.

1) FFR really isn't a dancing game. I can't say I've ever danced to FFR.
2) This isn't DDR. You play DDR with your feet; FFR with your hands. The schematics are nearly completely different.

FFR stresses accuracy. Why shouldn't someone be penalized for pressing a key 5 seconds before they are supposed to (Not exactly my opinion, I'm asking why to clarify this)? The offbeat rating would not include an offbeat window above the stationary arrows, so the rating would only be given if a key is pressed WAY before arrows are on screen or when there are no arrows on screen. I haven't heard anyone once complain that pressing/hitting a key on Beatmania, Guitar Freaks, Drummania, Pop 'N Music, etc., when they aren't supposed to gives them a poor rating, why should it be different in FFR? The point I'm getting to is why, schematically should this be changed? Tell me from an FFR perspective, not a DDR perspective because this isn't DDR. The point of this is getting to the root of the problem. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just challenging you to think and give me good evidence to back your opinion.
The offbeat system is merely a medium between the two opinions.

A good idea would be to let people choose a difficulty that affects the timing window only for beginners
I shall keep that in mind and mention it as an idea to Synth and bprc. Thanks for the input :D

[moketronics]

(as ive said before) Ive only been playing FFR a week or so but for what its worth the offbeat system proposed sounds decent. Still think it should break the combo but less penilization would be good...

[Spazzbite]

I gotta say, i have missed beats countless times because my fingers slipped and hit another button and gotten docked for it. What my idea is, is you dont get docked for pressing a button when an arrow isnt there, but if there is an arrow up, and you press an extra arrow, you get docked for it. Just a suggestion :wink:

[Hyrogashi]

Well, i think it should be reformatted to the regular stepmania and dwi way because of the following reasons.

First of all, in the arcade, as well as your fingers, You see people pressing arrows that arent there to """"Beatmap it"""" (I know that means something completely different, but thats what ill call it.) For example. in song DAIKENKAI (Des row, featuring alpha blah blah, which BTW is completely overplayed.) You see people in the begginning press the arrows twice as much as they should be, to get extra perfects. Its a very good strategy and i use it on my feet as well as my fingers. And secondly, I accidently press arrows sometimes and it ruins my whole life. lol.

[CMCAdvanced]

In response to nestlekwik's post.
What do you mean FFR isn't a dancing game. :x I count Bust A Groove for the PSOne as a dancing game, and it came out way before a dance pad was thought of. :cry:

What I really meant to say was Rhythm action game, not dancing game.

[marshmallowstomper]

I had an idea to implement difficulty levels in FFRR2, so this is kind of an expansion on that: I think that the timing window should be increased for the easier modes, and be decreased for the harder modes.

[NessTormented]

I am believ that there are should be no of change; its a good system.

[MEGAginge]

I voted for the tweak, IE the same system as stepmania

[MEGAginge]

I had an idea to implement difficulty levels in FFRR2, so this is kind of an expansion on that: I think that the timing window should be increased for the easier modes, and be decreased for the harder modes.

to supplement this, scores are halved in the easier mode so that it can only be used to get to grips with the level - to get high scores only the hardest difficulty can be used

[Hideokuma]

The system is fine the way it is. Stop complaining, and get better at the game itself. If you need to be hitting arrows to keep time, than it is a challenge for you.

When I play games, I play them for a challenge. I don't constantly berate the makers of the game when there is an element of the game that I am not good at. If you hit an arrow because you're in the flow, and are penalized, TOUGH! Your mistake. That's the challenge, NOT to do that. Being able to hit the keys when you're supposed to is one thing, but being able to NOT hit the keys when you're NOT supposed to is another. It's part of the game. Deal with it. I say if you don't like it, make your OWN game.

I've only been playing this game for a better half of a day, and I think the actualy gameplay system is just fine. Games are too easy these days anyways. Instead of trying to get the makers to make the game easier to make up for your shortcomings, why not get better? It's not the game makers duty to make it easier for you to get a better score. That's the idea behind games with scores, to be able to get better at what you're bad at, in order to get a better score. The idea is not to eliminate parts of the game that you suck at.

That would be like pulling out certain enemies in other games cuz you can't kill them. Pulling Akuma out of a Street Fighter game because you suck against him. Getting rid of Bubble man in Megaman 2 because you can't beat him. Might as well just get rid of the game entirely, and make it a game of who can type in the highest score possible. Who can hold down the 9 key longest?

-Hideo

[MEGAginge]

lol dont get so defensive of FFR u asked a question and ppl r answering it... :D Tbh i dont do this wierd thing Hiro was on about so i cudnt care less if it was changed - its just i do ***occasinally***make a mistake or like a tendon pulls if my hnds r tired and i hit an extra button - which is the only reason i say change it...

I actully think synth and bprc wud b best off using their time working on remix 2 and not reworking the engine...

[nestlekwik]

Well, of course, I'm just passing along the data from the forum input to Synth and bprc. What they decide to do with it is totally up to them. I was just sick of people bitching about it and not even giving solutions or practical answers. It was just always "I hate the miss system! It sucks! Change it!" It got old really quick.

[ColonelPanic]

IT SUCKS! I'm kidding... I think for those people that played DDR before (me, for instance), it takes a little getting used to, as far as getting docked for hitting arrows are concerned, but like they say, this isn't DDR... and besides, that would be an interesting feature for DDR, to see how may players could play without hitting extra steps. I hardly ever do, just for the challenge... I'm not that great at DDR, but I try not to hit arrows that aren't on screen, and it's not a terribly difficult concept to pick up.

[Freak83]

What all of you have said I'm sure is very interesting. But I'm too lazy to read any of it.

[CMCAdvanced]

I say if you don't like it, make your OWN game.


Can't, too lazy.

[Arch0wl]

Uh..
Nesle, I don't know about 5 key, but in 7 key IIDX you only get a poor if the notes are like, 1 bar away. I press notes all the time randomly and I don't get poors.

Also, in beatmania IIDX, you can still get a poor and STILL continue your combo. I do it all the time.

I think the miss system should be tweaked, really.

Or, an alternate suggestion:

Change the scoring system, towhere it's not so heavily based on misses.

I know I've said this alot, but I swear all the time this happens to me, I just play a song and out of nowhere I get a miss. I'm pressing arrows normally, and in like a millisecond after the arrow is already recieved as a good or perfect I get a miss. And yes, I hit the arrow fine. I know when I actually miss or not.

[CMCAdvanced]

It some time skips for me. I hate it when I get a really good combo, and then the arrows somehow skip.

Messes my groove up. 8)

[Arch0wl]

It some time skips for me. I hate it when I get a really good combo, and then the arrows somehow skip.

Messes my groove up. 8)

Same... and it's just spontaneous, out of nowhere skipping, not "Oh my god, I know this song is going to lag" from the start skipping.

[nestlekwik]

Uh..
Nestle, I don't know about 5 key, but in 7 key IIDX you only get a poor if the notes are like, 1 bar away. I press notes all the time randomly and I don't get poors.

Also, in beatmania IIDX, you can still get a poor and STILL continue your combo. I do it all the time.
Yes. From 5-Key to 7-Key it was tweaked a little bit and in 7-Key, your combo remains. It was changed too in the later versions of 5-Key, but 5-Key is pretty much dead now. In 5-Key, basically if there was a note to play on the screen and you pressed the button, you got a poor rating.

[Arch0wl]

Oh, well the only 5 key I've played is Core mix and in that one it doesn't do it... anyways, I think the scores should be changed so a miss really doesn't matter so it's like not getting a perfect or whatever... I think the scoring system should be heavily based on how many perfects/goods you got

[dave]

My computer is running so slow to day god :evil:

[nestlekwik]

Oh, well the only 5 key I've played is Core mix and in that one it doesn't do it... anyways, I think the scores should be changed so a miss really doesn't matter so it's like not getting a perfect or whatever... I think the scoring system should be heavily based on how many perfects/goods you got
The scoring system change is something I've pushed for. Supposedly, though, there is some sort of new scoring method in remix. I've documented reasons why the tournaments, definately, should not run on the combo scoring. I, too, think the scoring should be based on perfects/goods/averages instead of the combo.

[dave]

humm do tell :idea: :?: :?: :?: ¿Ö¿

[Kashell]

How about, instead of accually trying to solve the problem directly, use the indirect approach?


Like, a counterbalance.


Instead of changing misses, and how they work, change how perfects work.

Change perfects so they give two steps up on the scale rather than just one.

Problem solved.

[JiN_]

well i was just gonna go post in the other one but it was locked so it might be out of topic. ok i play ddr everyday in my lil household and well i dont like the miss system it should be like ddr what it says in the instructions is and i'm quoting "You are not penalized for hitting the incorrect dance steps you are penalized for not hitting the correct dance steps." which means u hit an arrow its the wrong arrow u get a good missing the arrow completely will be a miss get it? i hope this wasn't a waste of my time yeah? oh and sorry for the out of topicness ppl :roll:

[dave]

Kool hope u enjoy your stay at the forums :wink: