TWG XIV - Tossing Out Some Info...

[chardish]

I've got a new idea planned for XIV but I want people to comment and opine about it before the actual game starts.
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CONDITIONS FOR VICTORY:
This is a tribal TWG. You have two affiliations: a race (Human or Wolf), and a tribe (we'll call them Red and Blue right now.)

The humans win if all the wolves die. The wolves win if there are even numbers of humans and wolves.

Your tribe wins if you completely eliminate all members of the opposing tribe: all humans and wolves on the opposing tribe.

It is possible, however unlikely, to win for both your race and your tribe. But as soon as one of the victory conditions is met, the game is over.

WOLVES (4, 2 per tribe) know which tribe they're on, but not which tribe any of their fellow wolves are on. As usual, they know who their fellow wolves are.

One wolf on each tribe is a Tribal Seer - they pick a human every night and they learn which tribe they're on.

All 4 wolves must arrive on a consensus as to who to execute every night. I will send every wolf a series of confirmation codes - 1 per night per player. I must receive all 4 correct confirmation codes from all 4 wolves before the death takes place. This is to prevent one wolf for "speaking for the wolves" in an attempt to take out members of the enemy tribe.

Remember, wolves, even though you might be inclined to stick together at the beginning, it's always to your advantage to try to take out members of the enemy tribe in case your tribe is plotting without your knowledge to push for a tribal victory. Or in case they lynch a wolf from the other tribe (or you're the only wolf left, for example) and suddenly it becomes easier to win as a tribe. It is never to your advantage to completely ignore one of the teams you're on, be it wolf/human or red tribe/blue tribe.

CHIEFTAINS know which tribe they're on, and the identity of their fellow chieftains. One of these on each tribe is a seer who can detect both the race and tribe of another player, and the other chieftain is a guardian. The guardian cannot guard himself or his fellow chieftain.

HUMANS do not know which tribe they are on, or the race or tribe of anyone else in the game.

The basic thrust of the game is that everyone is on two teams, but both those teams can't win at the same time. Meaning different people might be strategizing different ways, or different people might be pushing for different victories. Everyone has an agenda; alliances could be formed and broken, etc...since both teams can't win together, you're going to have to backstab one of your teams eventually. I see a lot more opportunity for conspiracy and intrigue in a TWG like this.

Comments? Suggestions? Improvements?

[QreepyBORIS]

It's like survivor!

The resemblance is uncanny. But since the first survivor was so awesome, I want to play this anyway.

[chardish]

Tass thinks humans should know the tribe they're on. I think I agree. Do you?

[Kilgamayan]

Would they be allowed to tell others what tribe they're on?

[chardish]

Would they be allowed to tell others what tribe they're on?

They're also allowed to lie about it, yeah.

[Kilgamayan]

What would lying about it accomplish?

If people know each other's colors, then we would have humans intentionally working against humans, and even possibly voting based on color instead of who they think are wolves.

[GuidoHunter]

What would lying about it accomplish?

If people know each other's colors, then we would have humans intentionally working against humans, and even possibly voting based on color instead of who they think are wolves.

Exactly. That's one of two ways to win.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kefit]

Humans should definitely know what tribe they are in. They would be far too in the dark without it. The informational benefit enjoyed by a special role in a regular TWG as compared to a human is already substantial, and this game would just compound that problem.

Furthermore, I have a hard time believing that all of this color stuff will actually accomplish anything. The reason that TWG works is that the wolves inherently have more information than the humans do, and thus it is possible to weed them out or for them to slipup. These colors, on the other hand, really give no one any more information. In other words, there is absolutely no way for the color of someone to be deduced, since all one has to do is lie (if they so choose) and that's that - the lie won't affect or involve any other players in the game, and it will be very easy to keep up said lie.

Really, what I see happening is that colors will be completely ignored, since it will be impossible to come to any real conclusion on them. Either that, or this game will become a backstabbing session among the wolves (since they will be the only ones who have any real means of deducing colors), leaving all the humans bored out of their minds.

[chardish]

If people know each other's colors, then we would have humans intentionally working against humans, and even possibly voting based on color instead of who they think are wolves.

That's the point.

Say I'm a red seer. I've recently discovered that Wolf A is not only a wolf, but also another red. Is it really to my advantage to kill him off? I've already told a few of my pals about about him who I know are fellow reds, and we decide that we can use him to push for tribal victory. Wolf A now knows that killing me, or anyone on my tribe who I already know for sure is on my tribe, means certain death for him. In other words, he'd have to pull off some really, really cool scheme to try to get a wolf victory at this point. But it'd be doable.

Also, let's say that human B and human C are both on the chopping block. Neither is a wolf, and I know that, but B is on my tribe and C is not. What possible motivation would I have for voting for B?

EDIT: The basic idea is that since I prefer voting for people not on my tribe, then it is possible to deduce colors, similarly to how people deduce wolves by their voting habits, not voting for people who are wolves, etc.

[Kefit]

All the stuff I said being said, I think this can work, as long as more people have access to some way of coming to a solid conclusion on colors. Perhaps more color seers would help with this. Hell, I think a truly great game could be had by allowing every human to see the tribe of one player every night.

EDIT: The basic idea is that since I prefer voting for people not on my tribe, then it is possible to deduce colors, similarly to how people deduce wolves by their voting habits, not voting for people who are wolves, etc.

If you are a seer, sure, this is possible. But the vast majority of players wont have access to information like this, and wont have anyone that they know for sure is another member of their tribe, and thus wont be able to come to any conclusions like this.

[Tasselfoot]

If everyone has the ability to see others, you know that myself, blah, and maybe eb/hans would be seen by everyone... putting specifically blah and myself at a huge disadvantage, with many people knowing what we are and nothing in return....

Also, through a simple network, everyone would know everyone's color by the end of day 3. Wouldn't be hard to get a 3-person alliance on day 1, those 3 see 3 more, get who they saw on day 1, all see different people on day 3, bam... just about everything is known about everyone, cept who the wolves are.

That isn't a good idea.

I still don't like this idea, but I'll play. And I will be a hardass like I said I would be.

[chardish]

If you are a seer, sure, this is possible. But the vast majority of players wont have access to information like this, and wont have anyone that they know for sure is another member of their tribe, and thus wont be able to come to any conclusions like this.

4/18 people have the ability to see colors. That's unprecedented. Networks will pop up rather quickly. There will be lying.

[flux_]

This seems like a pack game with a little twist on how the teams are set up. I like the basic idea of it, but I think only one side should have a seer (randomly selected). Maybe the other side can have a psychic or something. I'm not sure if I like that the wolves have that ability, though.

I think the fact that the wolves are on different tribes, but also are still wolves together is a good idea. That'll throw another element in there that you never get from regular games, and you don't really get from pack games.

I'll probably try to play in this game after your post in the XIII after game, chardish. :]

[alainbryden]

nice idea, makes for some very complicated gameplay. It almost makes me want to wing it.

[Kilgamayan]

I still don't know about this.

I might sit this one out, I'll have to think about it.

Humans intentionally working against humans just...isn't kosher.

[chardish]

I still don't know about this.

I might sit this one out, I'll have to think about it.

Humans intentionally working against humans just...isn't kosher.

The game's what you make of it. You might push strongly for a human victory, people might follow your lead. This can be especially potent if wolves are pushing for tribal victory. Form alliances, and give it your best shot.

The whole gist of the game is that tribal isn't always the best way to win, and wolf-human isn't always the best way to win.

[Kefit]

Going for a tribal win is not a good idea. Why? Because it requires depending upon the wolves to kill a significant portion of the other side for you. Regardless of tribal affiliation, the wolves are not on the same side as you, and thus depending upon them to do something for you is not a wise idea.

Although I like the general idea of this game, I don't see it working as it is currently set up - the colors will simply have no affect upon the gameplay.

[GuidoHunter]

Going for a tribal win is not a good idea. Why? Because it requires depending upon the wolves to kill a significant portion of the other side for you. Regardless of tribal affiliation, the wolves are not on the same side as you, and thus depending upon them to do something for you is not a wise idea.

Although I like the general idea of this game, I don't see it working as it is currently set up - the colors will simply have no affect upon the gameplay.

I don't agree at all. If you can form an alliance with a wolf of your color, you can have him convince the other wolves to wolf someone of the other color while you and the rest of your side try to lynch the other color's wolves. Also, since few will have the opportunity to be assured of someone being a wolf, this could happen between two supposed humans. I think this could work really well.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[chardish]

Going for a tribal win is not a good idea. Why? Because it requires depending upon the wolves to kill a significant portion of the other side for you. Regardless of tribal affiliation, the wolves are not on the same side as you, and thus depending upon them to do something for you is not a wise idea.

Although I like the general idea of this game, I don't see it working as it is currently set up - the colors will simply have no affect upon the gameplay.

You keep thinking this way. You draw wolf, and you randomly start killing humans, not caring about which tribe they're on.

Meanwhile, a wolf from the other tribe is convincing you to kill off members of your own tribe. It's still a wolf/human issue - as far as you know. Secretly, you're being plotted against by your own team.

That wolf from the other tribe then conspires to have you lynched, and you're gone. There will be conspiracies - that's part of the game. TWG is great, but I wanted to see more scheming and plotting going on, which is why I developed this variant.

In case you can't tell, I love inventing social games like this.

[Cenright]

It is a little like the 2 different wolf teams game, but with much more cooperation.

Most people will make the other wolves a target, but after day 2 or 3 some will start to feel that maybe they need to go for the the other tribe instead. The thing with this, is that the humans need to identify whether or not certain people are seeming to go for less wolfy candidates. This wont happen until day 2 or 3, but then it is a constant problem after that.

[Kefit]

Chardish, I am thinking mostly from a human's perspective.

Indeed, this game should be a blast for the wolves to play. That is, if they can ever agree upon a wolfing target - I see potential problems with this further in the game.

However, I don't think there will be much scheming on the part of the humans. I can't think of a likely situation in which it would be a better idea for a human to try and ally themselves with a wolf (which will be necessary for a tribal victory) than to just go through the normal course of trying to lynch all the wolves.

[chardish]

Give it a chance, that's all I'm asking. I'm eager to see the postgame thread for this one already.

[Tasselfoot]

I'm eager for TWG 15 already......

[lightdarkness]

I'm eager for TWG 15 already......

I'm eager for Tass's mom! Who I hear lives rather close to me ;-)

[Kilgamayan]

This sounds like it's going to be even less fun for a regular human then normal.

Bleh.

Count me out.

[GuidoHunter]

The only problem I foresee for a human is this: In regular TWGs humans have to deduce who the three wolves are. That's a tough enough job as it is. Now, they not only have to deduce the wolves (okay, so they don't HAVE to, but it'd really help), but they also have to deduce everyone's color. It's also possible that everyone's lying.

The only way around this that I see is forming an alliance with the seers, and that's dangerous enough as is.

But, if this doesn't prove to be an obstacle, this game sounds incredibly fun for humans and wolves alike.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

I'm eager for TWG 15 already......

I'm eager for Tass's mom! Who I hear lives rather close to me ;-)

She was BORN close to you. She lives in philly.

[Kefit]

This sounds like it's going to be even less fun for a regular human then normal.

Bleh.

Count me out.

This is certainly a part of my problem. Actually, this is a problem for all TWGs, and I have recently been trying to think up of a game variation that somehow gives everyone some information to work with without completely destroying the way the game works. But that's a matter for a different thread.

Anyway, Chardish, I am definitely willing to give this a chance - indeed, the only way to find out if my concerns are really valid or not is to run a game. I'm thinking it will turn out like Infiltration, and will be more of a learning experience than anything else, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Rebirth0]

This sounds like it would work out and be pretty fun. As well as difficult which I like. You can certainly count me in this time.