Almost There (12 or 13)

[hi19hi19]

Besides Revolutionary Etude, this was the only other file to be rated a 92/100 in the old out-of-100 system. Considering Revo is now a 13, we should visit this file's rating as well.

The principal reason for moving it up is of course the 150 bpm 32nd stream. While 300 bpm is "slow" for streams as far as top players are concerned, you have to take pattern into account. The Almost There streams are so difficult because they are extremely trilly, and 300 bpm trills = 150 bpm hidden anchor jacks (2 bpm faster than Revolutionary Etude!)
The rest of the file is certainly easier than the stream section, but it's still not trivial, especially considering nerves when you manage to come out of the stream with a solid score. Between minijacks, fast polyrhthms, dense JS sections with 32nds layered in, and awkward jump transitions there are plenty of places trip you up in the latter 2/3 of the file as well.
I should mention the scoreboard as well, specifically that there are just four scores out of the top 200 on this file with zero boos. That speaks volumes on how difficult the patterns in the stream are to hit properly.

Trying to spur further discussion on the 12/13 border, and after moving Revolutionary Etude up this is the next song to visit.
So, is Almost There a 13?

[i love you]

Not sure if 13's are defined yet on FFR but I will go on ahead and post my thoughts on it since no one else did. This file is a tough one to consider because there is only one section in this file that would be considered a "13" in my opinion, the 150BPM 32nds with the trills in them. The rest of the file overall varies between a MID FMO to a HIGH FMO however it is easy to mess up some of those sections like those awkward jump transitions, those 24th polyrhythm bursts, and some of those dense jumpstream/mini-jack patterns.

Executing a file like this as a whole is ridiculously difficult and requires some luck and speed nailing that long 32nd section and not messing up the other sections of the file. A file like this should really be considered a low "13" in my book. I think that stuff like RATO are at a much higher level then a 13 because it requires a lot more pattern flexibility and it has a lot of various places where you might have to sacrifice some boos/goods just to combo a few sections. I should also mention that it could easily cause a lot of random splitting and rage LOL. DP, on the other hand, i think should be fine as a "high 13" instead of just a "13". I am sure I am missing a few more files.

In conclusion, I'd say a low 13 for Almost There.

[awein999]

150 bpm 32nd stream alone=13

150 bpm 32nd stream with shit before and after=13

[One Winged Angel]

If AT's gonna be baseline 13, Husigi should get an auto-bump......maybe even AQD

I'll agree that 301bpm minijack stream is eons more difficult than 225bpm broken jumpstream a la Lolo or incredibly simplistic and pattern friendly 260bpm stream a la Reality or ERv2. Anything with 300+ bpm stream for an extended period of time is more FSO worthy imo.

Also, consider the current difficulty rating distribution of streamier files and the bpm gap between those files. If Purple, at 230bpm, is a VC, and Reality, at 259bpm, is a high FMO/low FGO, then AT, at 301bpm with MUCH more dickish patterns, should logically belong in a difficulty category higher than FGO.

+1 to lowest 13

[DossarLX ODI]

It's an interesting thing to note that the 32nd section has a few 2 frame minijacks.

The 32nd section is also a "fake stream". You have some some short-lived roll type patterns that leading into large sections of minijacks and jacks. There are indeed a few one-handed jacking transitions that are very hard to nail without getting boos. However, viewing these parts as minijacks offset on both sides makes it a lot better to handle.

And that 32nd triplet anchor part near the end. That's really easy to trip up on and I remember it screwing over a blackflag run into 3g haha.

Anyways, I say keep this as a 12. It's much better to play through if you see it as a series of one handed minijacks on both sides and play it like that rather than a "32nd trilly stream". What makes that part a pain to score on there is that some of the 32nd transitions can make you hit jumps in 2-frame intervals which really sucks for AAAing.

At this point though, I strongly consider using a system of 1-15. Maybe even 1-16.

If you want a really subjective/biased view, Almost There was a lot easier for me to AAA than A Quick Death and Eclipse. WAY easier. But I think the majority of the problem is that it isn't being hit as minijacks/jacks, but more as a stream-type pattern which screws people over.

[EzExZeRo7497]

Knew this thread is going to be made.

AT is basically a file that's about all out speed. FCing it without mashing is really difficult, more difficult than Eclipse Solar, despite being 30 BPM more.

The patterns aren't forgiving either, with 150 BPM hidden minijacks and such.
What about everywhere else? Despite being 11 material, it does nothing but bring nerves and **** you up. I rememver tripping hard on them, I FCed the stream thrice but derped somewhere.

Only reason why I say it's 12 is because there is little room between it's too fast and I can destroy this territory. Then again, not many of FFR players can do fast stream.

All in all though, highest 12 or lowest 13.

[Hateandhatred]

It's an interesting thing to note that the 32nd section has a few 2 frame minijacks.

The 32nd section is also a "fake stream". You have some some short-lived roll type patterns that leading into large sections of minijacks and jacks. There are indeed a few one-handed jacking transitions that are very hard to nail without getting boos. However, viewing these parts as minijacks offset on both sides makes it a lot better to handle.

And that 32nd triplet anchor part near the end. That's really easy to trip up on and I remember it screwing over a blackflag run into 3g haha.

Anyways, I say keep this as a 12. It's much better to play through if you see it as a series of one handed minijacks on both sides and play it like that rather than a "32nd trilly stream". What makes that part a pain to score on there is that some of the 32nd transitions can make you hit jumps in 2-frame intervals which really sucks for AAAing.

At this point though, I strongly consider using a system of 1-15. Maybe even 1-16.

If you want a really subjective/biased view, Almost There was a lot easier for me to AAA than A Quick Death and Eclipse. WAY easier. But I think the majority of the problem is that it isn't being hit as minijacks/jacks, but more as a stream-type pattern which screws people over.

All the way with you.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Well with how Hi19 has phrased his argument I'm inclined to agree that it has to be moved up because of Revo.

Now this being said, 13 shouldn't be the LOL STUPID TROLL charts. Since Vrofl I think was put to 14 (because it is a TROLLLOLOLOLO chart) we should weave a few more charts into the 13 spectrum to get a feeling of what is really the hardest batch of reasonable and doable charts in FFR.

Tldr - Let's make Almost there a 13 and begin to look at AQD and Eclipse.

I also agree with OWA that Husugi has to be moved as well (though probably should have been a 13 in the first place to be fair.)

[bballa48]

Baseline 13. It just feels in a different category than high 12s.... yet at the same time it feels easier than all the 13s. I think it would make a perfect cutoff file.

And though this isn't the thread for it, bump Husugi as well.

[hi19hi19]

And though this isn't the thread for it, bump Husugi as well.

I made threads for every other borderline 13 as well ;)
They just haven't been approved yet for whatever reason.

[bballa48]

I made threads for every other borderline 13 as well ;)
They just haven't been approved yet for whatever reason.

Haha fair enough.

Also, I am currently kicking myself for not saying "Keep it at a 12. It is Almost There, but not quite a 13."

Silly me.

[hi19hi19]

"Keep it at a 12. It is Almost There, but not quite a 13."

lmfaooooo


...that joke is so obvious in hindsight

[who_cares973]

I have 36.4.33.10 as my best score for almost there.

I say bump it to 13 so I can have one really awesome 13 score

[kmay]

yea my best PA is in the 50's i think... doesn't shout FSO to me. other thank the trills which you can jump mash

[bmah]

I made threads for every other borderline 13 as well ;)
They just haven't been approved yet for whatever reason.

You're going to have to wait a bit, since Jae, jx and I need to discuss a bit more on the lvl 13 difficulty (despite having a few new 13s now) - or a new scale for that matter.

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Jae, jx and I need to discuss a bit more on the lvl 13 difficulty (despite having a few new 13s now) - or a new scale for that matter.

I understand him being a mod, but what the hell?

[hi19hi19]

You're going to have to wait a bit, since Jae, jx and I need to discuss a bit more on the lvl 13 difficulty (despite having a few new 13s now) - or a new scale for that matter.

Oh okay.

[Reincarnate]

This file is a high 12, no question.

Yes, there's one tough section, but the rest of the file is AAA-fodder. The trills are learnable.

Revo is a good call for 13 IMO. I always envision 13's as the realm where no PA is safe or guaranteed for a good portion of the file density.

Yes, Revo has fodder too, but the last, what, third of the song being absolutely tough is a far cry from a couple seconds of AT being tough.

[Mau5]

Kind of agree with Reincarnate, i always imagined a small chance of hope for me someday in Almost There, but with Revo it'll always be a file i'll never succeed in haha

[omega_grunt666]

I don't know, in the current system it feels right as a high 12. Even basing off FCs it has almost twice as many as any of the current 13s.

Maybe if we bump Vrofl to 15, throw the UNDENIABLE 13's into 14 and bump the harder 12's into 13...

[Herogashix]

Maybe if we bump Vrofl to 15, throw the UNDENIABLE 13's into 14 and bump the harder 12's into 13...

Or we could categorize 8+ as level 2s, and anything below that as level 1s, and vROFL, Death Piano and RATO can be level 3s. :D
LOL bad idea. But that'd be funny to see.

edit; Oh yeah, AT is a 12. You can't argue it. It's not hard enough or stupid enough to be a 13.

[FontSize72LOL]

Haha fair enough.

Also, I am currently kicking myself for not saying "Keep it at a 12. It is Almost There, but not quite a 13."

Silly me.

Hah, yeah i'd have to agree. The trills are the only thing in there i see being 13 worthy, but its not enough to push it over the edge. I'd definitely say its a harder 12 though.

[yo man im awesome]

I don't believe we're looking at this from very many perspectives. Instead of just looking to see if the file is 13-worthy, why not see if it's 12-worthy?

I'm sure it's quite obviously that there is an absurd difference in difficulty between files like Almost There and Lolo. Lolo, being the lowest 12, is above most 11's, but isn't exactly right in the middle of the 12 spectrum. Almost There on the other hand, is one of the highest 12's out there, is clearly more difficult than the vast majority of 12's, but isn't a "perfect" 13.

tl;dr, Like lolo, keep it as a baseline file for the next difficulty up. (+1 for 13.)

[who_cares973]

just played almost there again and yeah lets just keep it as a mid fgo. i wouldnt even say that almost there is the hardest fgo either

[Poison-]

Not hard enough for a 13. If I was going to be biased based on my skill, I'd say 13, but only because I'm not a speed player. I don't think it's the hardest FGO either.

[bballa48]

just played almost there again and yeah lets just keep it as a mid fgo. i wouldnt even say that almost there is the hardest fgo either

Just curious, what 12s do you see as harder?

Edit: I just thought of RAIN. Definitely harder for me, but probably not for people who can jack well.

[hi19hi19]

I brought it up because it was the highest rated FGO under the old out-of-100 system.
I did make threads for files such as Winter Wind Etude, A Quick Death, and Husigi. I definitely think those three are harder.
I would prefer if all of them were moved up to 13, so that it wasn't such a joke difficulty. And that's exactly why I am trying to get this discussion going.

[bballa48]

I don't see how A Quick Death is harder. The patterns aren't that hard to cheat.

Husugi, for SURE.
WWE to me is not bad at all, the ending just requires one really quick trilling hand.

[Poison-]

AQD, WWE and Husigi are harder. I find Rain [YMCK] harder as well.

[who_cares973]

Just curious, what 12s do you see as harder?

Edit: I just thought of RAIN. Definitely harder for me, but probably not for people who can jack well.

CCCP
husigi
eclipse
scrap syndrome
slashmaid
mourning the lost
j'ai
rain
schmollbluk
zombie sunset
la campanella
magical 8bit tour
betrayal
devour
AQD
WWE

all these files take more skill and have harder patterns and transitions than almost there

[Poison-]

That's a pretty solid list.

[yo man im awesome]

Wait, Mourning the Lost is suddenly harder than AT? Where have I been

[rayword45]

CCCP - Not sure
husigi - Yes
eclipse - No to me, but apparently to Doss
scrap syndrome - See above
slashmaid - No
mourning the lost - No
j'ai - No
rain - Yes
schmollbluk - No
zombie sunset - No
la campanella - Can't say cause this song is my weakness
magical 8bit tour - See above
betrayal - Dunno
devour - Dunno
AQD - Perhaps
WWE - Yes


Only 3 definite harder songs IMO.

[Vanilla Mnm]

Revo & Almost There should both be 12s.

[rayword45]

Wait, Mourning the Lost is suddenly harder than AT? Where have I been

Having both high and low baselines = Bad idea.

Revo & Almost There should both be 12s.

Are you aware we're reorganizing the 13 list?

[bballa48]

Wait, Mourning the Lost is suddenly harder than AT? Where have I been

LOL, not a chance in hell.

Other than this, the list is fairly reasonable though.

Edit: Mourning the Lost score : 2-0-0-0
Almost There score: 161-54-0-197

Yeah, pretty equivalent :)

[who_cares973]

improve that almost there score you know you just mashed for the fc

[gnr61]

CCCP - high 12
husigi - 13
eclipse - low 13 (the stream is highly divisive in skill requirement; a top tier player can hit it and say lol12 but for 99% its a cluster****)
scrap syndrome - ?
slashmaid - ?
mourning the lost - ?
j'ai - borderline, some patterns are really really unfriendly but i'd say 12
rain - BB Evo of 12's
schmollbluk - ?
zombie sunset - ?
la campanella - high 12
magical 8bit tour - 12
betrayal - ?
devour - only played the first 15 seconds cuz its awful idk
AQD - 12 very cheatable patterns and flows well
WWE - 13 worthy because of the ending alone imo, also pretty draining and brutally repetitive for average players

[popsicle_3000]

I don't know, in the current system it feels right as a high 12. Even basing off FCs it has almost twice as many as any of the current 13s.

Maybe if we bump Vrofl to 15, throw the UNDENIABLE 13's into 14 and bump the harder 12's into 13...

this exactly!
Revo & Almost There should both be 12s.

lol revo has already been bumped up

[One Winged Angel]

Carlos you must be a really weird player haha half those files are nowhere close to AT in difficulty

[who_cares973]

you're a weird player ;______;

[TC_Halogen]

scoring difficulty and full combo difficulty on this song are both incredibly high, in multiple sections.

the jumps are very easy to gain bad habits on due to a lack of flow within certain patterns (unintentional mini-jacks?), and the stream itself is just outright insane because of the mini-trill interruptions. a few of these are one handed.

i'm willing to see this as one of the top three FGOs in difficulty, or one of the bottoms for FSO.

[EzExZeRo7497]

To be honest I can count the amount of FGOs harder than AT with one of my hands; Husigi Usagi Milk Tei and Winter Wind Etude.

Carlos you're weird as hell brah haha

[Hateandhatred]

To be honest I can count the amount of FGOs harder than AT with one of my hands; Husigi Usagi Milk Tei and Winter Wind Etude.

And SSSG.

Seriously though, Im surprised no one named Scrap Syndrome.

And tbh, AT should be the final mark of the 12. I don't remember it to be so hard.

But there again I don't even know why revo etude got bunped, but I can tolerate that one, but do I smile? was a must bump...

Revo should be the very easiest 13 imo. The only one left that should get up there is winter wind, and MAYBE scrap.

[stavie33]

And SSSG.

Seriously though, Im surprised no one named Scrap Syndrome.

And tbh, AT should be the final mark of the 12. I don't remember it to be so hard.

But there again I don't even know why revo etude got bunped, but I can tolerate that one, but do I smile? was a must bump...

Revo should be the very easiest 13 imo. The only one left that should get up there is winter wind, and MAYBE scrap.

why does everyone find scrap syndrome hard, like at all? It's a high FGO no doubt, but the whole file is pretty manageable, it seems far easier than La Camp, which would honestly be my next throw in for 13, the amount of people that can handle those trills are very, very few. But nothing about scrap syndrome screams absurd, it's just a long, draining, tricky chart. Winter Wind is far worse in every way. Maybe I haven't played it enough but anyone want to tell me why SS is considered a really high FGO?

[bmah]

Regarding high-levelled difficulties, I'm thinking of implementing a 1-15 difficulty system on a temporary basis. Eventually, I hear that we're going to switch to a 1-100 difficulty system. That would definitely require a restructing of difficulties for all songs.

[hi19hi19]

Why the temporary system? (possibly a new thread explaining this?)
Seems unnecessary to restructure everything twice, but maybe I am missing exactly what you plan to do.

[omega_grunt666]

Why the temporary system? (possibly a new thread explaining this?)
Seems unnecessary to restructure everything twice, but maybe I am missing exactly what you plan to do.

Well probably because for 1-15 you really only have to move Vrofl to 15, 13's to 14, and the upper half of 12's to 13. Where as 1-100 requires much more time and effort because it effects every song. Ideally 1-100 makes it easier to rank songs difficulty accurately, but a 1-15 system would definitely take the pressure off until all the songs can be re-evaluated.

[nois-or-e]

The system bmah is referring to is slightly different, and is already in the process of changing. Stay tuned guys ;D

[emulord]

I got the Almost there mash FC WAYYY before Revolutionary etude, La Camp, Winter Wind, and a few others.

Also, you can get pretty good combo scores from hitting the minitrills sloppily, and the rest of the file normally. Probably better than a similar skilled player playing Revolutionary etude with its ugly uncheatable patterns.

I vote 12, close to the top of the scale, but still solidly a 12.

[Poison-]

Difficulty should not be rated on how hard it is to mash a FC...

Also: I think 1-100 is the best system you could use. But hey that's just me.

[hi19hi19]

I got the Almost there mash FC WAYYY before Revolutionary etude, La Camp, Winter Wind, and a few others.

Also, you can get pretty good combo scores from hitting the minitrills sloppily, and the rest of the file normally. Probably better than a similar skilled player playing Revolutionary etude with its ugly uncheatable patterns.

I vote 12, close to the top of the scale, but still solidly a 12.

... the minitrills in Almost There are actually denser than the Revo Jacks!
Meaning if you are hitting the Almost there minitrills as jumpjacks (150 bpm jumpjacks) you are basically doing the same kind of thing as Revolutionary Etude (148 bpm jumpjacks) except you are also getting an assload of goods and averages as well because of cheating the patterns. The anchors are slightly longer in Revo so it's not a perfect comparison, but keep in mind the NPS of that section is higher than Revo, and the section is longer too.

[emulord]

The thing is the directions switch often enough for you to cheat and still maintain FC. I bet assuming best case, you need to mash faster and for longer to maintain combo during the "hard part" of Revo compared to Almost there. So you can begin the pattern legit and slide into sloppier play, rather than being focused on mashing fast enough to keep up combo.
Id put up pictures showing the difference but I'm too lazy :P

[hi19hi19]

The thing is the directions switch often enough for you to cheat and still maintain FC. I bet assuming best case, you need to mash faster and for longer to maintain combo during the "hard part" of Revo compared to Almost there. So you can begin the pattern legit and slide into sloppier play, rather than being focused on mashing fast enough to keep up combo.
Id put up pictures showing the difference but I'm too lazy :P

No that does make sense. The anchors are longer in Revolutionary Etude which would make them harder to FC if you can't keep up with that speed of jacking.

Talking about non-mashing scoring difficulty though, I still maintain the two sections are pretty similar.

[leonid]

Same difficulty as Magical 8bit Tour

[Vanilla Mnm]

Are you aware we're reorganizing the 13 list?

No I wasn't. Does that mean Death Piano & RATO are going to be 14s? cause they should not be the same difficulty as even Revo, Almost There, WWE, or any of those songs.

[rayword45]

No I wasn't. Does that mean Death Piano & RATO are going to be 14s? cause they should not be the same difficulty as even Revo, Almost There, WWE, or any of those songs.

I'd say WWE to RATO is better then WWE to TTE or FN

[Vanilla Mnm]

I'd say WWE to RATO is better then WWE to TTE or FN

Yeah, true. But RATO i feel is far harder than WWE. RATO, WWE, and FN should all be different levels..

[DossarLX ODI]

Yeah, true. But RATO i feel is far harder than WWE. RATO, WWE, and FN should all be different levels..

1-15 goes for that; a general difficulty range.

1-100 just causes too much subjectivity.

[Findarian]

Alright, there are two ways we can grade difficulty, a meshing of both will only cause confusion.

Option 1: Sort difficulty based on how hard it is to AAA
This option makes these songs 13s

husigi
La Camp
WWE
(DeVour? Not sure because i'm not skilled enough)

Rest are 12s.

Option 2: Sort difficulty based on how skilled a player must be in order to FC with no boos.

This option makes these songs 13s

husigi
La Camp
WWE
rain
j'ai
DeVour
Schmollbulk
AQD
Eclipse


That's my two cents, and I put them in this thread because it was the most recent one talking about 13s


EDIT: just heard about the system changing.. so really the only point of this then was to say that we need to choose one way to judge files, not multiple ways

[V-Ormix]

almost there was a 12 when it came out, so in my mind it will always be a 12. If anything this is a high 12, but 13... I don't know bout that x)