For FFR [10 or 11]

[rushyrulz]

For FFR and Southern Cross are the only Very Challenging songs with a maximum of 5 tier points while all the others have a maximum of 4.
The Ending of For FFR is worse than the wall in Skeletor because of speed and spacing + framers.
It's a blue note file with more frame issues than you can shake a stick at.

Main reasoning here is that if it's good enough for 5 TPs, it's good enough to be called an 11. Same goes with Southern Cross, but that's a different thread.

[stavie33]

totally an 11. One of the only 2 VC's I can't AAA, and the only one that isn't due to a background and off syncness, the roll wall and inverted rolls are harder than stuff in most low FMO's. The rest of the file is piss easy, but that wall is long enough, and it's change to inverted rolls make it harder than Novo Mundo and Heavenly Spores (two other predominantly easy files with some single hard parts that are NOT anywhere near as hard as For FFR's). Take 300 for example, song is undeniably VC till the end, but that end, although longer, is not as tricky as these roll walls. And blue note syndrome. How is this not harder than 0 (piano version) and Disconnected Hardkore? Seriously? This should be low FMO, but not even the lowest. It will take me forever to fix my 2 boos.

[Anaru]

I think it's a solid 10.
The same argument goes for Skeletor I guess..

The song is relatively easy except the hard part at the end. And even then, the ending isn't very fast. Skeletor is an 11 because the roll part is faster, and the rest of the song is faster than VC songs in general.

For FFR is a solid 10 because of its other parts that are not as hard (I would even say the song is a 9 or less without the ending.)

If you look at other songs like Bus Rides With People, Didj PVC, Twelve, and some other VC's, they require much more pattern knowledge and speed than For FFR. The only reason why For FFR is a 10 is because of the ending. No need to bump it to a 11.

[bballa48]

11. Mid 11. Heck, take the isolation file with just the ending and it is still an 11. The ending is so far and away harder than every pattern in every single 10 that we have in the game. It is slow enough that it can't be cheated, yet fast enough to demand incredible roll control. Plus, the transition from 1423 to 1234 is nasty.

[DossarLX ODI]

For FFR's ending is actually very bizarre in the sense that its ending is a GIGANTIC frame interval mess. The split rolls are littered with a mix of 1-frame and 2-frame intervals. Also, you cannot rely on the music in that part either. The song is playing at 16ths while this part was stepped as 24ths.

Edit: Turns out the file plays at 180 bpm. Well yeah, 270 bpm 16ths don't work out so well in terms of split roll frames.

Also, the roll in the beginning (148-171 combo) also is a gigantic mess of frame intervals. This file is very hard to score on if you're trying to go for consistency. I personally have to look out for 1 frame intervals because going constant makes it too easy to split goods from how the frames work out.

I wouldn't mind this being put as a low 11.

[qqwref]

For FFR is not all that bad to hit, I guess... but PAing and AAAing is a super huge bitch. I know of several players with 5+ FMO AAAs who don't think they're capable of nailing this one without massive luck. And in the old Tier Point list (which is still in use ._.) it was given more points than several low FMOs. I think it's definitely an 11.

[DossarLX ODI]

For FFR turns out to be more gallops than actual split rolling if you're trying to score on it.

[rayword45]

For FFR's ending is actually very bizarre in the sense that its ending is a GIGANTIC frame interval mess.
Edit: Turns out the file plays at 180 bpm. Well yeah, 270 bpm 16ths don't work out so well in terms of split roll frames.

180/30=6

Unless I've been misinformed about frame issues my whole FFR life, then this = WTF!?

[DossarLX ODI]

Not sure what you're trying to say with that, rayword. 180 bpm 8th notes are all 5 frames apart. However, 24ths means 2 notes in between those 8ths, and that obviously won't have nice placements.

[qqwref]

180/30=6
1800/180 = 10
So the 4th notes are 10 frames apart, which means 16th notes are 2.5 frames apart (half chance of 2-framer, half chance of 3-framer) and 24th notes are 1.66666 frames apart (1/3 chance of 1-framer, 2/3 chance of 2-framer).

[DossarLX ODI]

Going into intervals:

For the first two pictures, red is for up/right and yellow is for left/down.

For the third and fourth pictures, red is down/up and yellow is left/right.

For the fifth and sixth pictures (last two), same as the first two pictures.

The frame intervals should be easy to distinguish with the difference in the slant of the lines. This is basically why the file is more about "gallops" since trying to do constant will make you rush the 2 frame intervals and split the 1 frame intervals that are a lot faster. (2 frames = 225 bpm 16th, 1 frame = 450 bpm 16th)

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr1.png

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr2.png

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr3.png

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr4.png

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr5.png

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad328/DossarLX/ffrtips/forffr6.png

So yeah, I think it should be an 11 from this.

[Anaru]

Lol now that I see it the frames look so screwed up ;c

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

What dossar said

[igotrhythm]

Yeah, it's a mess when you dissect it like that, but it's not so obvious during play. Framers do start to come into their own in VCs and up, but as extreme as the case of the rolls is, the rest of the file is sufficiently easy to keep this in 10 territory.

Hyrogashi would be so damn proud right now. That file was supposed to be pretty much impossible when it first came out (recall how many people had FMO AAAs when Otaku Speedvibe was released). To know that it's still ragebait to this day...

[Elite Ninja]

For FFR is not all that bad to hit, I guess... but PAing and AAAing is a super huge bitch. I know of several players with 5+ FMO AAAs who don't think they're capable of nailing this one without massive luck. And in the old Tier Point list (which is still in use ._.) it was given more points than several low FMOs. I think it's definitely an 11.

I have over 25 FMO AAAs and I can't even SDG For FFR (just got 12-1-0-0 on it recently and its the only VC I haven't SDGed). I have also SDGed near 50+ FMOs (not sure exactly how many). For FFR definetly should be an 11...... but I would rather much rather just see it removed from public ranks and moved to token ranks like many other songs should be.

[EzExZeRo7497]

270 BPM is quite a lot of speed demanded for a VC.

Like kono spoon, it can't be jumptrilled.

For that ending only... 11.

[hi19hi19]

If we're talking ability to achieve good PA/AAA, this song is clearly an 11.
If we're talking ability to pass/read/FC, then this song is just a high 10.

The ending is not too bad in terms of speed required, it only feels like an FMO if from the viewpoint of trying to PA it.
But it is definitely FMO from that viewpoint lmao

I vote +1 to making it FMO, seeing as the ratings at the higher end of difficulty usually are predominantly based on difficulty to PA/AAA.

[bmah]

A reminder to some people...please include a reason/argument to accompany your opinion. "definately an 11" is insufficient content for a post for example.

[Jerry DB]

sorry just figured everyone covered why, it's an 11 because the ending is a bunch of hard to hit random frame rolls and would I can think of about 30 master songs that are easier to aaa then ffr.

For ffr is usally most players worst level 10 song also on their level ranks, it's been around forever too and has less aaa's then some master songs that came out YEARS later, with less gameplays

[SK8R43]

In my Opinion, For FFR is not an 11. I have 4-1-0-1 on It and did it with One Hand, come on people its really not that hard. I can AAA the ending just about every try but the rest of the file is dumb. Just my 2 cents.
Edit: @ bmah- I just find that the ending is not that hard, it might be really really fast which could make it an 11(which i dont mind either way) But the patterns arent difficult to pull off even with the framers issue. Sorry if you dont like my 2 cents lol
All in all doesnt matter to me, could possibly go both ways but imo its more of a high 10

[bmah]

I personally have a hard time deciding for this one. I've always said in other threads that I would determine difficulty by the ability to FC a song without mashing. In that respect, For FFR isn't overly difficult to FC. Even so, the statistics (both scores and age of the file) show otherwise. One thing to note is that the hard part occurs at the very end of the song. It's easy to get not one good, not two goods, but a whole slew of goods or averages, simply because an extremely fast 1324 pattern that's not jumptrillable is very difficult to pull off period.

It certainly would look nice if it turned into an 11 as it'd remove one of my worst 10s. But personal scores aside, it looks like everyone else has the same problems (with the exception of, hmm, bluearrow who apparently finds these patterns very easy to him). The fact that people consistently have the same problems as mentioned above has me leaning over towards the 11 side.

In my Opinion, For FFR is not an 11. I have 4-1-0-1 on It and did it with One Hand, come on people its really not that hard. I can AAA the ending just about every try but the rest of the file is dumb. Just my 2 cents.

Anecdotal experiences aside, -what- do you find easy in the file? That's the question you have to answer in your post. You need to convince others as to why it should be a 10, and saying that the song wasn't hard for you isn't convincing at all.

@rushy: that's right. (if you're referring to what I said above, that's not a part of my argument...I already mentioned physical aspects of the file)

[rushyrulz]

For the record, "I have 500 FMO AAAs and I can't AAA this one" isn't a valid argument ever.

[lumphoboextreme]

Well I AAA'd on a lucky run but I say it's an 11.

[Zon Fire]

its a 10. the ending is the only "difficult" part. Because jump trilling is not very a practical method for PA'ing it

[rayword45]

I'm torn on this one. The ending prevents me from an SDG which makes this a lot harder for me then most low-end FMOs. However, I could luck out (did so several times on isolation file) and the hard section is very brief.

The only way I justify a hard part bumping a song difficulty is if:

A. It takes up 10% of the files time
B. It's above the rest of the file drastically so that the short section is above the actual rating with everything else below (See: Largiloquent Dithyramb, RunnyMorning)

Is the hard section of For FFR really FGO-worthy though?

[gnr61]

wait this file is currently a VC? lmfao

[rushyrulz]

A. It takes up 10% of the files time

It takes up around 10% of the file's total arrows in a short period of time, definition of a difficulty spike.


B. It's above the rest of the file drastically so that the short section is above the actual rating with everything else below (See: Largiloquent Dithyramb, RunnyMorning)

It is.


Is the hard section of For FFR really FGO-worthy though?

FMO not FGO

[rayword45]

FMO not FGO

Then in that case it should be a VC if the hard section is only FMO-worthy.

The jacks in LD and RunnyMorning are definitely FGO-worthy but everything else is high 9/low 10 level.

[leonid]

I vote 11

[rushyrulz]

The jacks in LD and RunnyMorning are definitely FGO-worthy

ummm?

[reuben_tate]

I'm gonna put the subjectivemanias aside and just show some statistical data to show why it should be an FMO.

For FFR
Release Date: 2003
AAA's: 74

Southern Cross
Release Date: 2007
AAA's: 135

Black Key Etude
Release Date: 2009
AAA's: 111

EHHS
Release Date: 2006
AAA's: 148

wait this file is currently a VC? lmfao
I know right? xD

[Winrar]

Oh no it has a harder ending than the rest of the file so it has to be an 11 right? I don't understand why people only judge files if it has ONE difficult part, the entire file is a joke except for the ending which is slow enough to not jumptrill.
Blue notes aren't an excuse to bump it up since there are synth files that are right where they belong.
10.

[i love you]

This is a really tough one to use from because of the inconsistencies of this file. I think really the problem for most people on this file is because of the fact that the notes are blue and not colored. I think if this file was colored then more people would AAA. Also, most of the file is around a 9 but then those rolls/spins in the file have a HUGE difficulty spike for it to be a high 10. I would say just leave it as a 10. Just because the majority of the community have problems with the ending does not mean that it should be changed to a higher difficulty especially when the majority of the file is basically a 9 overall other then the rolls/spins.

[reuben_tate]

Oh no it has a harder ending than the rest of the file so it has to be an 11 right? I don't understand why people only judge files if it has ONE difficult part, the entire file is a joke except for the ending which is slow enough to not jumptrill.
Blue notes aren't an excuse to bump it up since there are synth files that are right where they belong.
10.

Maybe we should move Pandora to an 8 then since it's only difficult at that one part?

[Winrar]

Maybe we should move Pandora to an 8 then since it's only difficult at that one part?

When that part of Pandora reaches a spike of 27 NPS (6 off from RATO which is a 13) and happens to be harder than almost every FGO there's an exception.

There are 10s that are harder than For FFR and spike higher than 18 NPS.

[reuben_tate]

NPS is a poor determining factor when looking a file's difficulty. It also depends on the pattern selection at that NPS. For example, jacks at 27 NPS is much more difficult than [12][34] jumptrills at 27 NPS. Also, could you be less vague and name some of these 10's that are harder than For FFR?

[Hakulyte]

I'm sure a ton of top players AAAd FGOs and still had trouble fixing this file because unlike other charts, it's not just about getting your muscle memory down and pulling a no brainer, you need to deal with the awkwardness of the frame mess and since all the arrows are also blue, the file is not guiding you at all into the right direction. Even worse, if you play by sound, you will also mess up because of the lol 24th in the middle of all these rolls that doesn't even follow music. If this file is not a 11, Story of Snowman and Sunshine Girl is a 4 and everyone who ever got a good on it should feel about as ashamed as when they got one on all the other perfectly on-sync difficulty 4 files that flows perfectly. Oh wait- SSSG is a 4..

.-.

tldr;

List of overlooked reasons of why it's hard enough to move to 11:

- Frame mess.
- Blue notes only.
- Brutal ending that cannot be jumptrilled.
- Less than 75 AAAs and the file is out since 2003.

I don't even see a reason to not judge a file by the ability to AAA it. If 90% of the file is easy and 10% of it is completely insane, you will need the skills to nail that 10%. The 90% remaining is not going to have an impact of how hard the file truly is. >:

This file would easily turn back into a 10 if they updated the sync and added colors or helped somehow players to find a way to demystify it's difficulty, but right now it's most likely a 11.

[rayword45]

ummm?

I was merely proving a point. The hard parts of those 2 songs are FGO but the rest is 9/10, which is why they stay at FMO.

Contrastly, For FFR stays low 9-level (below Tension) for almost all the time, has a brief 32nd roll, and a hard ending. But those 2 parts are very brief and don't seem to spike above FMO-level for more then 7 seconds, which would make it VC.

I'll say For FFR is an 11 if TTE is a 12 though.

[CammyGoesRawr]

In all honesty, i believe that yes, the ending is straight FMO worthy, but the rest of the file is very low VC, even sitting at a high 9 for most parts. The patterns are simple and speed doesnt become an issue except for the 24th roll at the 150 combo point, and the ending. One difficulty spike that lasts about 5 seconds shouldn't constitute a difficulty bump.

tl;dr = 10

[Arbliterator]

Oh no it has a harder ending than the rest of the file so it has to be an 11 right? I don't understand why people only judge files if it has ONE difficult part, the entire file is a joke except for the ending which is slow enough to not jumptrill.
Blue notes aren't an excuse to bump it up since there are synth files that are right where they belong.
10.

This is a really tough one to use from because of the inconsistencies of this file. I think really the problem for most people on this file is because of the fact that the notes are blue and not colored. I think if this file was colored then more people would AAA. Also, most of the file is around a 9 but then those rolls/spins in the file have a HUGE difficulty spike for it to be a high 10. I would say just leave it as a 10. Just because the majority of the community have problems with the ending does not mean that it should be changed to a higher difficulty especially when the majority of the file is basically a 9 overall other then the rolls/spins.

In all honesty, i believe that yes, the ending is straight FMO worthy, but the rest of the file is very low VC, even sitting at a high 9 for most parts. The patterns are simple and speed doesnt become an issue except for the 24th roll at the 150 combo point, and the ending. One difficulty spike that lasts about 5 seconds shouldn't constitute a difficulty bump.

tl;dr = 10

Same as my thoughts, if it were far longer then I'd say 11 would be appropriate but not for this. +1 for keeping it at 10.

[Winrar]

NPS is a poor determining factor when looking a file's difficulty. It also depends on the pattern selection at that NPS. For example, jacks at 27 NPS is much more difficult than [12][34] jumptrills at 27 NPS. Also, could you be less vague and name some of these 10's that are harder than For FFR?

Number of AAAs is also a poor determining factor. If it's a terrible file (which in this case it is) then that would drastically lower the amount of plays/attempts on it. as for 10s that are harder, let's start with the most obvious choice which is Bus Rides With People.

If you want it to be an 11 why not start with the borderline difficulty song.

Also whoever said that the ending is 10% of the song, 10% of the total arrows maybe, but length wise it's not even 10 seconds long. Saying it's awkward = too bad, that's you finding it awkward not everyone.

[One Winged Angel]

11 and god some of you make terrible arguments.

More than half of you guys who are arguing for 10 don't realize how massive of a spike that ending is for a 'VC' file. And arguing that 'it's short' or 'the rest of the file is easy' is hilarious.

Imagine if Crowdpleaser was just the megatrill. A two second, 30 note file. I'm sure most of you would agree that it would still be a 12 or maybe even a 13. Now add in the rest of the file. How in the flying fuck would adding more notes to the file decrease the difficulty of that 30 note file? There is no logical way to argue that CP should now only be a 10 or 11 because the rest of the file is VD-worthy. Adding more notes to surround the iso file (and if any of you argue that the 30 note file would only be an FMO, then lol) only increases the difficulty.

I agree with bballa. For FFR's ending is six seconds long. Take the six second long ending alone and it's already an FMO. Adding another two minutes of file content to precede the ending wouldn't decrease the difficulty through saturation. Split rolls are absolutely horrendous to PA and when you framer fuck the living shit out of them at a really gross bpm like 270, they only get exponentially worse.

And again, you can always look at the song stats, which reuben already posted.

edit: and before some smartass tries to come in and say 'oh, so since the Runny iso is FGO-worthy, it's FGO then'....no. I picked CP as an example for a reason, although I suppose I could've picked something like Almost There as well, but the 'spike' section is a bit longer so there's less 'wtf was that bus that just hit me' feeling. The TtE bursts as iso files would not be FGOs. The Largilo jack alone would not be FMO/FGO. I realize there's a lot of subjectivity involved in evaluating when a spike is large enough to push a difficulty over the higher end of the barrier, but it's very clear as to why CP is an FGO, which is why I chose that. For FFR's ending has enough oomph to it to put it in the same boat.

[DossarLX ODI]

10 goods and 5 misses on a 30 note file (CP megatrill): WTF INSANE
10 goods and 5 misses on a 1236 note file: Not that bad!

Crowdpleaser is also a good example because when you take into consideration any nerves, a slow file can be ridiculously painful to play through since you'd have a tendency to go too fast. More notes doesn't decrease the difficulty of AAAing or FCing.

I don't see how this could be a 10 especially after OWA's post.

[i love you]

I personally still think it is a 10 but if majority wants it changed to 11 then let it be changed so we can all move on with our lives xd

[tofurox]

I agree this should be an 11. I don't really have anything new or insightful to add because most everything has been stated, but I do believe it should be an 11.

[Elite Ninja]

I played an isolation of just the ending on For FFR on Haku's engine and my average score that I got was 30 goods with some averages and boos. I've tried many different methods on trying to AAA it or even get good PA on it and nothing has seemed to work. I've gone from jumptrilling (REALLY bad lol), to hitting it like [14], [23] alternating jumps (works the best but I vary between 12 goods to 30 goods on average), and to viewing it as a one hand trill on each hand (only works for a little and then I completely go off course). Even though the rest of the file is easy that does not make it a 10.

[MrMagic5239]

Its not that hard but yeah should be an 11

EDIT: Just to be completely honest my opinion is so obviously not biased to the fact that I AAAed it before a massive **** ton of great gurus on this website even did lol