El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

[devonin]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

That's the kind of false equivocation that gets trotted out any time somebody levels a reasonable criticism against America's lax gun laws.

"We should improve gun control somewhat"
"So you think all guns should be ripped out of our hands and destroyed?!?!"

[Sanjixcon]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

Lol i'm saying there are times where having a "good guy with a gun" around can be a very good thing. It's not black and white.

[devonin]

Can you even show me, say...five such cases in the last 10 years? And then argue whether those cases justify the offsetting hundreds and hundreds of not prevented mass shootings?

If the cost of 'good guys with guns' who might get to save the day 1 in every 2000 mass murders is the other 1999 mass murders, I don't think you're arguing a very sustainable point.

From the study that DBP linked above:

We found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Owning a gun puts you at a larger risk of being murdered, not a lower one.

[Sanjixcon]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

I looked and found several different sites that have way more than 5 cases and you can easily find them with a quick google search (litterally top links on the first page). But I didn't want to get into a stats/math argument with you I was more just wanting to bring the consensus on "guns are always a bad thing" more towards the middle where I believe the truth lies.

[devonin]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

I'll go out on a limb and say that yes, civilian gun ownership for purposes besides hunting and sport shooting is always a bad thing.

Edit: I suppose on further reflection, I need to explicitly account for people who live in rural/farm areas where there are actual animal predators capable of killing livestock etc, but I mostly lump that in with hunting.

[flashflash account]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

How did he get an "ak47 style rifle" btw I haven't heard

[DaBackpack]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

Lol i'm saying there are times where having a "good guy with a gun" around can be a very good thing. It's not black and white.

Theoretically it can be a good idea. But would you allow 10 more El Paso shootings to happen if the "good guy with a gun" only pops up a single time? Based on what we've seen those are just terrible odds to bet on, so little it's not even worth entertaining seriously.

EDIT: Maybe there's a middle ground but asserting that Batman with a gun is gonna save us from mass shootings ain't it chief.

[Sanjixcon]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

How did he get an "ak47 style rifle" btw I haven't heard

that's a good question.

@dabackback
I'm not betting on the good guy with a gun to save the day... i'm just saying that at least that's better then nothing at all.

[Funnygurl555]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

Can you even show me, say...five such cases in the last 10 years? And then argue whether those cases justify the offsetting hundreds and hundreds of not prevented mass shootings?

If the cost of 'good guys with guns' who might get to save the day 1 in every 2000 mass murders is the other 1999 mass murders, I don't think you're arguing a very sustainable point.

From the study that DBP linked above:



Owning a gun puts you at a larger risk of being murdered, not a lower one.

i don't think this is an appropriate statistic to support the claim you're making.

when you share a home with someone, you trust someone enough to be vulnerable with them, so oftentimes you wouldn't actively think to protect yourselves against them. so, the presence of a deadly force in the home will increase the risk of someone who already wants you dead doing it successfully, granted they have access to the gun themselves

but the statistic shouldn't be used to defend guns not being at home, or on someone's person. rather, the gun that someone does have should be safeguarded against others, especially those with precarious mental states. and while i'm at it, children.

I'll go out on a limb and say that yes, civilian gun ownership for purposes besides hunting and sport shooting is always a bad thing.

Edit: I suppose on further reflection, I need to explicitly account for people who live in rural/farm areas where there are actual animal predators capable of killing livestock etc, but I mostly lump that in with hunting.

this is almost as bad as if my "everyone should have guns" comment were unqualified

[DaBackpack]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

that's a good question.

@dabackback
I'm not betting on the good guy with a gun to save the day... i'm just saying that at least that's better then nothing at all.

-----but is that small percentage a worthy tradeoff for the larger percentage of crimes you could pevent entirely

that's the question

[Funnygurl555]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally

[DaBackpack]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

but the statistic shouldn't be used to defend guns not being at home, or on someone's person. rather, the gun that someone does have should be safeguarded against others, especially those with precarious mental states. and while i'm at it, children.

This specific paper controls for mental instability and histories of violence. That said, I'm not sure the conclusion dev made is justified by this paper by itself. I listed it to challenge the notion that "gun ownership in the home" is a sufficient condition for "being safer" (to some degree of confidence). The correlation is not that simple: there are factors, known and unknown, that actually raise mortality in these situations.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally

Maybe they're a *bit* too prevalent though if all these 21 year olds can buy them no prob. You think a 21 year old skin head could afford black market weapons?

[Funnygurl555]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

This specific paper controls for mental instability and histories of violence. That said, I'm not sure the conclusion dev made is justified by this paper by itself. I listed it to challenge the notion that "gun ownership in the home" is a sufficient condition for "being safer" (to some degree of confidence). The correlation is not that simple: there are factors, known and unknown, that actually raise mortality in these situations.

rip i should read LOL

edit:i guess to be clearer this invalidates my recommendations

Maybe they're a *bit* too prevalent though if all these 21 year olds can buy them no prob. You think a 21 year old skin head could afford black market weapons?

i don't think cost'll be a notable prohibitive factor to someone who wants to kill a bunch of people

[DaBackpack]

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally

Complete prevention will never happen and arguments like this are often used to refute any attempt at solution-making. "Nothing will work completely, therefore let's not do anything."

Incremental change is still valuable.

I also want to point out that nobody thinks that gun control is the only step required to reduce gun violence. Gun control is a part of a larger plan that we think can reduce gun violence.