Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

**Shamo0** · 06-9-2008, 08:15 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by Fire Lilly

I can't handle the competition. Everyone is far better then I can hope to reach... Everything I do can't seem to live up to what I hope to accomplish. Even after practicing with Term, Jity and my hometown champion, taking all advice I can and practicing for more hours then people, let alone those I'm training with, care to know.

I can't handle losing anymore. It's always been by three or more lives, and I can swear most damage I do is an accident. The results never change; I've self-destructed on my last life more times then I can count because I get angry… I get mad at myself as I begin to realize how it’s going to end.

I try playing for fun, but somehow I'll always get serious in the middle of a battle... It's just my personality and something I can't help. To me, this is a competition. That's what makes losing so much harder for me.

I'm sorry.
- Fire Lilly

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170664
Assuming peach is your main. If you want to get better, read up on ur char, watch people who are proclaimed to be good with said character and try to play like them. Learn the hard match ups and ways around them. You can train all you want but when other people are training with these huge and helpful guides readily available, you're only handicapping yourself. You can play smash for 10 years and not come across something other people deem amazing and perfected. The internet is there. Just use it.

You should also look into glide tossing. Since peach can produce turnips.

**Jor-Dan_the_greatest** · 06-9-2008, 08:48 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

there are a few reasons i lost.

#1. you're better than me. plain & simple

#2. you only main high tiers- of course you would beat me w/ them in those matches

#3. i don't main any low tiers. i main lucas, whom i beleive to be middle (whom i still lost with).

these are the reasons you beat me and it had NOTHING to do with tiers. i'm not saying tiers dont exist, but i dont think they should matter

**ddrapper25** · 06-9-2008, 09:17 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

sorry omni, i just didnt feel like really playin. the delay finally got to me

**abbiemonGoesRaWr** · 06-9-2008, 09:22 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

dogdude, I see you online. Are you going to be Brawling tonight? :3

EDiT:
Oh wait, Omni, you're back online. Can you play in about 10 minutes? :]

**dogdude84** · 06-9-2008, 09:24 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by abbiemonGoesRaWr

dogdude, I see you online. Are you going to be Brawling tonight?

Eh, I would but I'm tired. :/

**OmniOstrich** · 06-9-2008, 09:29 PM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by Jor-Dan_the_greatest

there are a few reasons i lost.

#1. you're better than me. plain & simple

#2. you only main high tiers- of course you would beat me w/ them in those matches

#3. i don't main any low tiers. i main lucas, whom i beleive to be middle (whom i still lost with).

these are the reasons you beat me and it had NOTHING to do with tiers. i'm not saying tiers dont exist, but i dont think they should matter

Lucas is debated between Low and Mid tier, largely in part due to the grab-release I performed on you.

I main DK (My list of Mains and Subs is likely to change soon, but for now thats who it is)

It would really be to your advantage if you started working on Lucas advance techniques, specifically zap jumping and wavebouncing.

here is all the advance techniques lucas has: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153793

Wavebouncing Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g

Here is copy and pasted wavebouncing:
The Wavebounce (b-sticking, as it has been named by SamuraiPanda, Levitas and I have reached a general consensus that you should (read: NEED) to switch to the b-stick, as it makes this so much easier and spammable) is an advanced technique in which a player uses a special (b) move in the air and also gains incredible backward momentum. Lucas can use this for his PK Fire and also, to a lesser extent, his Psi Magnet.

To understand how it works, set your C-stick to "Specials". Go to Training mode. Jump (short hop or not) and hold forward. Press backward on the C-stick.

Because you are moving forward, the PKF will go in the direction you're facing, even though you were supposed to shoot it in the other direction. However, you will be propelled backward through the air, for reasons I'm going to test with an Action Replay very soon.

It can also be done with PsiM. Instead of hitting backwards on the c-stick, hit back-down diagonally. You will shoot back about one horizontal Lucas's height. Lucas's Wavebounce with PKF, on the other hand, propels him about a third the distance of FD.

An interesting side effect of setting your right analog stick to specials is that you can auto-RAR. That is, if you are running forward (do not jump) and smash the b-stick backwards, you will automatically short hop RAR. You can use this to your greatest advantage in advancing on an oppononent and performing dairs as an approach.

Update: It has been discovered that this is possible without changing one's controller set-up. Jump right, shoot a PKF backwards, and then keep DIing to the right.

Here is copy and pasted Zap-Jumping:
apjumping is a strange glitch that occurs when Lucas performs his second jump and a PK Fire in the same frame. The jump gives him upward momentum, as it is supposed to do, but this momentum remains constant during the entire PKF, meaning he goes straight up at a fast speed for the entire duration of the PKF. If you were to turn FD on its side, that is how far you would go, roughly.

It has strange properties. For instance, if you RAR the PKF, the jump sends you diagonally at a 45 degree angle backwards (since you turned around, forwards from your original position), and for not nearly as long a time period. You move maybe 1.5x the length of one of the platforms on battlefield, if that.

In order to Zapjump, simply press B-sideways and jump at the exact same time. There are a few ways of doing this. First, swich your hand position briefly so that your index finger is on X and your thumb is on B, then jam right or left on the control stick and press both X and B at the same time. Some people have trouble with this, like me, so second, you can change the L trigger to jump. Then just smash L and left/right, and press B.

EDIT: Abbie I cant my internet goes off in like 1min literally >.< sry

**korny** · 06-9-2008, 11:48 PM

No one on this site goes to brawl tournaments. So no offense, but tiers don't really matter at all from the people i've played on this site. Manti is the only person i can't beat with more than 7 characters, characters that i never ever play as to begin with. I can assume (call me cocky) that if i played against every single person using the same character that they main, i would win. I have Smash bros. intuition. Stop saying tiers are for queers. It's not my fault that you are incapable of resourcing yourself with what's needed to excel as whatever character you choose to play as.

Now on a different note. I went to a brawl tournament today. It was awesome. Not. It's round 5 in the tournament and the quarterfinals are coming up and i'm wondering, why the hell i haven't played yet. Suddenly i hear the name of the guy who's ass i destroyed get called and i'm like wtf? So i go up there and ask the guy why he called that guys username if he had lost and he tells me that the bracket says i lost to him. This kid was 13 f****** years old and he goes to the guy who was running the tournament and tells him that he beat me because i trusted his little punk ass to not be a little prick and lie about the outcome. I guess he left immediately after he lost to me because when his name was called late in the tournament he was a no show. I was sooooo going to at least get second place. I was so pissed

**Afrombean** · 06-10-2008, 01:39 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by DarkManticoreX2

Jordan, you don't get progressivly worse, you just don't adapt. Once someone figures out what you like to do, you're kinda messed up. You need to throw some adaptations into your mix.

I don't do this, do I? I definitely don't consciously change my tactics, that much I know. The only way I do is if I notice them doing something character specific, such as if a Lucas gets wise to my down Bs, I switch up about half of them into aerial assaults, or I time them differently.

Originally posted by omni

I want to test out Falco some, I've never really had a knack for him but he has some beastly matchups and will endup high tier no doubt, being familiar with him will help.

Then you should be playing other people as Falco, not playing him yourself. All playing it yourself would do is let you know what kind of attacks he has, and I can tell you right now that that is not necessary just to learn what his attacks are.

Ask korny, tiers exist, I've seen him post on competitive smash community forums.

Dude, you have a gross misunderstanding of what tiers are. They're not necessarily better characters, nor are they more likely to win than any other. All they are is a SUBJECTIVE way of ranking how well the character typically performs in tournaments. If everyone played Yoshi, Yoshi would be winning a lot more than he is, and thus his tier would be higher. Does this mean Yoshi is a better character? No, it means he wins often in competition.

Your current top10 characters in order: Snake, Meta Knight, King DeDeDe, Marth, Wario, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Wolf, with Falco and Lucario very close behind.

Yes, those are all popular characters. And they're used by people who win regularly. But that does not inherently mean anything about the character itself.

Tiers are based on the hypothetical situation that the best players were to have matches with each other, which character would garner the most wins based on things like weight, priority, ko potential, combo potential, projectiles, chain grabs, spikes, and so on.

No, they're not. As I said before, they're a subjective way of ranking how characters typically perform in competitive situations. Just because many skilled players use a character and win with it does not mean that the character is any more likely to win any other match.

In the real world ultimately it does come down to one player being better than another, however, if two players are equal in skill and one player mains Bowser and the other mains Snake then sorry Bowser, you aren't going to win.

And what if Snake makes a minor mistake that allows Bowser to pull slightly ahead? What if Bowser SD KOs Snake repeatedly? It's all too meta.

At any rate, lets play some matches, I'll be snake, you can be whoever you want, you may witness top tiers firsthand.

Haven't I, with my lower tier Pikachu, been able to win against Snake? Stop acting like you're backing the winner or something; all you're doing is jumping on what other people have done and claiming their results make your future results more likely to be favorable. They do not. Tiers are not predictors of success.

You should also look into glide tossing. Since peach can produce turnips.

That's just a more difficult and less useful wave dash as far as I can tell. Perhaps an explanation as to WHY this would be worthwhile as a primary tactic?

reached a general consensus that you should (read: NEED) to switch to the b-stick, as it makes this so much easier

This reminds me. I did a "wave bounce" yesterday without touching my C stick. Totally on accident, used down B to thunder and it happened. Does anyone know how this is possible?

Originally posted by korny

I can assume (call me cocky) that if i played against every single person using the same character that they main, i would win.

Did we ever get a real Pika Pika fight between us? I think one time we tried it, but I was working off of like 3 hours of sleep or something equally absurd. Even if so, I'd love to play you some time with some of my new methods, particularly characters which are not G&W (or probably most of the defensive down B folks since the similar principle you apply to castrate me as G&W can be done with a handful of characters).

**Gray Fox** · 06-10-2008, 01:54 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by OmniOstrich

if two players are equal in skill and one player mains Bowser and the other mains Snake then sorry Bowser, you aren't going to win.

Not trying to feed the fire, but this reminds me of a certain match. Picture this, my first time in the finals and I pair up against a Snake mainer. We both had about the same skill although he was a bit better than me.

Sure I struggled and was losing to mind games and traps. The outcome? I actually won rofl.

**Shamo0** · 06-10-2008, 09:21 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by korny

Now on a different note. I went to a brawl tournament today. It was awesome. Not. It's round 5 in the tournament and the quarterfinals are coming up and i'm wondering, why the hell i haven't played yet. Suddenly i hear the name of the guy who's ass i destroyed get called and i'm like wtf? So i go up there and ask the guy why he called that guys username if he had lost and he tells me that the bracket says i lost to him. This kid was 13 f****** years old and he goes to the guy who was running the tournament and tells him that he beat me because i trusted his little punk ass to not be a little prick and lie about the outcome. I guess he left immediately after he lost to me because when his name was called late in the tournament he was a no show. I was sooooo going to at least get second place. I was so pissed

I loled. Little kids usually just cry when they lose at tournaments, alot of the times actually lol. But this one had balllllssssss

**OmniOstrich** · 06-10-2008, 09:44 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by Afrombean

Then you should be playing other people as Falco, not playing him yourself. All playing it yourself would do is let you know what kind of attacks he has, and I can tell you right now that that is not necessary just to learn what his attacks are.

By learning a character you learn some things that don't change from person to person hardly at all. Since Falco is the one in question I'll use him to explain. When learning falco I learned some easy ways to setup chaingrabs, laserlocks, and when to SHDL. I learned how to tilt combo at low %, how to use the reflector to trip, and how to setup some pillaring. All of these are very important damage racking attacks used by Falco. If I were to play a Falco I would have a base idea of what he is trying to setup when I'm at low %. Next I learned KO moves, and Falco has 5. Fsmash is the simplest to do, because it generally is an instant KO. It has deceptive range and now I know just how far it goes. Usmash is the next most common, and it can be used as DAC, meaning if I'm about dead and a Falco SHDL and runs at me, I can expect a Usmash. Dsmash is used when I spot dodge too close to him and it sends me horizontal so I can expect a bair or dair edge guard game.

Originally posted by Afrombean

Dude, you have a gross misunderstanding of what tiers are. They're not necessarily better characters, nor are they more likely to win than any other. All they are is a SUBJECTIVE way of ranking how well the character typically performs in tournaments. If everyone played Yoshi, Yoshi would be winning a lot more than he is, and thus his tier would be higher. Does this mean Yoshi is a better character? No, it means he wins often in competition.

Not really. Consider characters like DK and Wario. How many people main DK or Wario? Not that many. Despite this they are both winning, a lot. That means a fairly under represented character is winning, more than well represented characters, like say Ike, and dont get me wrong plenty of Ike's win, but in the end Ike is not top10, even though sometimes there are twice as many Ike's as there are Falco's or ROB's.

Look at Sonic. He has a huuuuuge fanboy base that are all playing him. He has one player consistently winning with him (Lucky).

Originally posted by Afrombean

Yes, those are all popular characters. And they're used by people who win regularly. But that does not inherently mean anything about the character itself.

Okay I think you missed something here, seriously. Look to my above post for popularity references. Then listen to me now. I have talked with more than one of the top25 brawl players. They dont pick there characters because they like them, with the exception of Anther and Gimpyfish. They pick there characters because those characters win them money. Dmbrandon, DSF, Psycho Midget, Bigfoot, Inui, Mew2King, PC Chris, Bum, all of them have said 'I play _____ because he is the best character for ______ reason." Good people want to give themself the best chance to win. The obvious way to do this is to pick the best character

Originally posted by Afrombean

No, they're not. As I said before, they're a subjective way of ranking how characters typically perform in competitive situations. Just because many skilled players use a character and win with it does not mean that the character is any more likely to win any other match.

Seriously, look up tier list on smash wiki.

Originally posted by Afrombean

And what if Snake makes a minor mistake that allows Bowser to pull slightly ahead? What if Bowser SD KOs Snake repeatedly? It's all too meta.

First of all come try and SD me with Bowser, please. Ask Jordn you can DI out of it and stay onstage. I've restated it multiple times. Second I didn't say the Bowser player couldn't win, I said he would have to outperform the Snake player.

Originally posted by Afrombean

Haven't I, with my lower tier Pikachu, been able to win against Snake? Stop acting like you're backing the winner or something; all you're doing is jumping on what other people have done and claiming their results make your future results more likely to be favorable. They do not. Tiers are not predictors of success.

First off, Pikachu isn't low tier, not even close, he is in fact currently climbing the tier lists. Secondly, we havent played 1v1 with Snake and Pikachu so I'm not sure why you seem to think this. Third, have you taken the time to look up 'tier list' on smashwiki yet? You still don't seem to understand the concept.

Originally posted by Afrombean

That's just a more difficult and less useful wave dash as far as I can tell. Perhaps an explanation as to WHY this would be worthwhile as a primary tactic?

Easy enough to answer. Glide tossing is useful because you essentially turn your character into snake, you can slide a smash attack across the stage and attack your opponent with lethal force. Peach, and Diddy, are the only two that can do this using an item, because in a competitive environment they are the only ones that can create items, and can glide toss.

**Jor-Dan_the_greatest** · 06-10-2008, 10:02 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by OmniOstrich

First of all come try and SD me with Bowser, please. Ask Jordn you can DI out of it and stay onstage. I've restated it multiple times. Second I didn't say the Bowser player couldn't win, I said he would have to outperform the Snake player.

ha! don't make me laugh! i never tried to SD kill you. i was doing that move to get you away from the edge. i don't SD kill unless a match is either for fun or if i am ahead a kill and i feel like being a jerk. neither of those were true, so i didn't try to SD kill you.

Originally posted by OmniOstrich

if two players are equal in skill and one player mains Bowser and the other mains Snake then sorry Bowser, you aren't going to win.

O.o

**Afrobean** · 06-10-2008, 10:08 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Dude.

No.

Tiers are not predictive, and they do not necessarily support the concept of a character being better or more likely to win. People who play top tier characters may choose who they do because they are choosing their best shot to win, but that's just it, see? It's the top players building the tier designations based on things external to the game's inherent values. They choose characters they think are best, they win as those characters, those characters are venerated. It's their actions that lead to the existence of tiers, not that tiers existing lead to them winning matches. And just because a top player chooses a high tier character and wins, that doesn't mean that that character being chosen in any other instance carries the same weight. It's all meta, it all relies on who is playing, and more importantly, there is no objective way to say that any one character is more likely to win a match based on character alone.

And my comments about SD KOing were perhaps a bit specific. I suppose I should have left it vague and said "what if something somewhat unexpected happens and the luck factor let's the one at a potential disadvantage to pull through and win". I think a pretty good example of this would be, say, Ganondorf's forward B being used accidentally and unexpectedly as a SD KO, using up both players' final stock. 8)

ps I guess I don't understand Peach's sliding turnip sliding throw as well as I thought I did, because my understanding on it was that she can only throw turnips through the slide, NOT do other attacks.

**Jor-Dan_the_greatest** · 06-10-2008, 10:24 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

first off i'd like to say that i do not care about tiers. i think their existance is just causing people to abandon their "favorite character" for a "high tier character". i will not abandon Lucas so easily, neither will Afro stop playing as Pika and Manti won't give up Samus or Wolf. We don't care about tiers and we think they sort of ruin the game for everyone. If I have spoken on your behalf Afro and Manti, and you do not agree, then I am sorry. This is just what I beleive to be true. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Also I think we just need to stop all the tier talk and focus on the ladder. It's just going to get someone mad and they may end up leaving the ladder for good. And for the sake of keeping all the members here, I suggest we drop all talk of tiers and how good/bad they may be.

**OmniOstrich** · 06-10-2008, 11:13 AM

Re: Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

Originally posted by Jor-Dan_the_greatest

ha! don't make me laugh! i never tried to SD kill you. i was doing that move to get you away from the edge. i don't SD kill unless a match is either for fun or if i am ahead a kill and i feel like being a jerk. neither of those were true, so i didn't try to SD kill you.

Falco vs Bowser
I stood next to the edge and waited, powershield other attack efforts, shining your flames. You went for the klaw just like I expected, and I DI'ed us to the center of the stage. Not once did I do this, but twice.

@Afro
If you accept that the game is not balanced, then you must also accept that this means there must be a best and a worst character. The purpose of tiers is to discover who is the best and worst character and the order in between, or at least as close to this as we can get.

EDIT: I'm going to be online, probably doing matchmaking with allisbrawl, I'll check the forums you guys let me know if you want some matches.

Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

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