Is it wrong to be gay?

[bobeck]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

bobeck, your lack of ability regarding reading comprehension is astounding.

What's astounding is your relegation of this issue to personal attacks. (Yes, I realize this statement makes me hypocritical)

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Was playing devil's advocate to give an example of an argument which isn't based on religion.

I'm pretty much neutral to the whole gay parents thing, although I can see it makes sense to avoid it. It's got to be weird as **** for the kid in social situations, like if friends come over or something. A friend of mine, his mom divorced his dad and ended up with another woman. And I never thought much of it, but if I had met him when I was like 6 and had experienced the same thing back then, I think I might have been weirded out by it and been overly judgmental.

Maybe it would have weirded you out, but only because it wasn't the norm. The only way to not find it weird is to see it happen more often. Think of all the kids who could find homes if gay couples were allowed to adopt in addition to heterosexual couples? Certainly better than no home at all.

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

What's astounding is your relegation of this issue to personal attacks. (Yes, I realize this statement makes me hypocritical)

I don't mind attacking someone if they're trolling/retarded beyond belief. You're either one or the other.

[Afrobean]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Maybe it would have weirded you out, but only because it wasn't the norm. The only way to not find it weird is to see it happen more often. Think of all the kids who could find homes if gay couples were allowed to adopt in addition to heterosexual couples? Certainly better than no home at all.

Yeah, which is why I'm ultimately not really against it, even though it might be confusing for the kid at first in social situations.

[bobeck]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I don't mind attacking someone if they're trolling/retarded beyond belief. You're either one or the other.

Wow! Low baller. Alright you win.

Now, aside from MrRubix who is omniscient, What is it then that can or will separate the approval of homosexuality from eventually the acceptance of bestiality, putting the issue of rape and consent aside? (Since Rape and its inclusive elements applies only to humans)

On a different tangent so as to not stray any farther from the topic, the question is "Is it wrong to be gay"? Apart from any moral compass (such as religion), there is no wrong in any activity. The question could be, why is killing for fun wrong? The answer aside from the legal aspect is...nothing. One may argue that its harmful to others. Well, who said harming others was wrong? Yes the law has imposed restrictions on harming others, yet if our only definition of right and wrong is only what the law says, then we are dictated by the desires of a fallible law maker and what may be wrong today might not be wrong tomorrow.

Thus I think its necessary to clarify when asking '' is it wrong to be gay''. Is it LEGALLY wrong, or morally wrong? The legality issue can be easy to answer. The morally wrong issue is where, apart from some superior standard, the circular and really unsolvable debate begins.

[Niala]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Now, aside from MrRubix who is omniscient, What is it then that can or will separate the approval of homosexuality from eventually the acceptance of bestiality, putting the issue of rape and consent aside? (Since Rape and its inclusive elements applies only to humans)

Nothing; people 50 years ago would have said the same thing about homosexuals, and look where it is now; probably 50% of westernized society accepts it, if not more. But, if we, as a society now, didn't approve of homosexuality, you don't think we wouldn't just skip a step and go straight there? Keep in mind, too, that just as there's nothing saying that bestiality won't be accepted in the future, there's nothing saying it will be either.

/2cents.

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Wow! Low baller. Alright you win.

Now, aside from MrRubix who is omniscient, What is it then that can or will separate the approval of homosexuality from eventually the acceptance of bestiality, putting the issue of rape and consent aside? (Since Rape and its inclusive elements applies only to humans)

On a different tangent so as to not stray any farther from the topic, the question is "Is it wrong to be gay"? Apart from any moral compass (such as religion), there is no wrong in any activity. The question could be, why is killing for fun wrong? The answer aside from the legal aspect is...nothing. One may argue that its harmful to others. Well, who said harming others was wrong? Yes the law has imposed restrictions on harming others, yet if our only definition of right and wrong is only what the law says, then we are dictated by the desires of a fallible law maker and what may be wrong today might not be wrong tomorrow.

Thus I think its necessary to clarify when asking '' is it wrong to be gay''. Is it LEGALLY wrong, or morally wrong? The legality issue can be easy to answer. The morally wrong issue is where, apart from some superior standard, the circular and really unsolvable debate begins.

The reasons for approving homosexuality are totally different from the reasons for approving bestiality. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Quit equating the two and quit loading questions like "if we put this issue and this issue aside."

As for your point on morality, you bring up an interesting point that I do think is worth addressing. We, as a society, have defined our moral compass the way we have because it's a way to create a utility-maximizing social optimum for everyone involved. We put rules into effect that give us rights, and therefore allow us to create a stable society where we can achieve the maximum amount of happiness. For instance, if we were able to kill at will, our society would crumble around us, so we put that law into effect to keep ourselves alive. Any number of examples could fit this bill, and the end result is "human rights." The law evolves to keep this general notion under check, which is why there is always an uproar when these fundamental rights are breached. Again, if you legalize bestiality, you're also kicking the notion of consent in the face, which in turn kicks a dozen other issues in the face. It's just not going to happen, especially considering how few people actually have a desire for it.

It's not an unsolvable debate -- you just need to understand ethics.

I firmly believe that "meaning" is a purely human construct (which is one of my anti-theist arguments), and nothing is "objectively" right or wrong, but as humans, we have a natural desire to survive and enjoy the fruits of existence that come with being alive. As a result, we need a system that best ensures that we can do so, and those systems are society and law.

[Izzy]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Yeah, which is why I'm ultimately not really against it, even though it might be confusing for the kid at first in social situations.

I still can't decide whether or not I think it would be ok for gay couples to adopt children. It would be helpful to have a home rather than not having a home at all.

The only thing that I think would persuade me would be an actual study on a kid who's been raised by a male/female couple and one who's been raised by a male/male or female/female couple.

I'd except some people to believe that being raised by a gay couple would result in the child becoming gay themselves, but I don't think that would be true. Other then that I don't see any reason to believe that a gay couple can't raise a child. There are hundreds of thousands of male/female couples that are terrible parents as is. How can a gay couple be any worse than family's already are?

I guess I just persuaded myself. I think gay couples should be able to adopt children. I would still like hard evidence though.

Also I'd like to say that even though I don't like mrrubix I concede to the fact that I would agree with his logical reasoning most of the time.

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I still can't decide whether or not I think it would be ok for gay couples to adopt children. It would be helpful to have a home rather than not having a home at all.

The only thing that I think would persuade me would be an actual study on a kid who's been raised by a male/female couple and one who's been raised by a male/male or female/female couple.

I'd except some people to believe that being raised by a gay couple would result in the child becoming gay themselves, but I don't think that would be true. Other then that I don't see any reason to believe that a gay couple can't raise a child. There are hundreds of thousands of male/female couples that are terrible parents as is. How can a gay couple be any worse than family's already are?

I guess I just persuaded myself. I think gay couples should be able to adopt children. I would still like hard evidence though.

Also I'd like to say that even though I don't like mrrubix I concede to the fact that I would agree with his logical reasoning most of the time.

There are plenty of studies -- and almost all of them say the same thing. There's nothing negative that results from having same-sex parents. Again, there are plenty of dual-sex households that are very detrimental to a child's emotional growth. There are many more important matters to care about... it's a waste of time to argue over homosexuality in parents. At the end of the day, the best parents are the ones that are simply good parents.

On your final note, I'm not really sure why you "dislike me," unless you're referring to my obviously overinflated Internet arrogance.

[bobeck]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

The reasons for approving homosexuality are totally different from the reasons for approving bestiality.

Care to elaborate? And I really wish you would understand that the laws meant to protect humans such as rape laws and it's applicable elements, do not even apply to animals. So please, stop it with the consent element.

Again, if you legalize bestiality, you're also kicking the notion of consent in the face, which in turn kicks a dozen other issues in the face. It's just not going to happen, especially considering how few people actually have a desire for it.

I could not help but laugh at this comment as it offers a perfect example of where and how society progresses, especially in regards to the correlation between the acceptance of homosexuality and the acceptance of bestiality.

Consider 20 or so years ago when homosexuality was looked upon as disgusting as bestiality is looked upon today. I can imagine skeptics of the legalization of homosexuality saying... ''If you legalize homosexuality, your also kicking the foundation of the family and the institution of matrimony which comprises the whole of society. Destroying this institution destroys dozens of integral issues necessary in society". Just look were we are today and extrapolate.

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Dude, okay. You are obviously not very bright, so I will make this very clear to you.

Consent is the reason why bestiality is illegal. Consent is based on mental ability and status and communication. Consent has nothing to do with the acceptance of homosexuality. Do you or do you not understand?

And just because people said one thing was acceptable 20 years ago doesn't mean I would have agreed with it. It doesn't offer a "perfect example of societal progression" because you're more focused on social stigma than the underlying RIGHTS involved.

I fully believe that not allowing homosexuals to marry is a violation of rights and is discrimination. I fully expect there to be legalized homosexual marriage in the future once people come to their senses. It's honestly sad that it's taking so long to arrive at such a simple conclusion. It really makes me wonder how effective society is at handling social change. Most people are stupid, ignorant, and fearful.

[bobeck]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

Dude, okay. You are obviously not very bright, so I will make this very clear to you.

Consent is the reason why bestiality is illegal. Consent is based on mental ability and status and communication. Consent has nothing to do with the acceptance of homosexuality. Do you or do you not understand?

Because I'm not very bright, I must admit i DO not understand. First off, your comparing illegality vs. acceptance. Secondly, where do you get the notion that ''consent is the reason why bestiality is illegal? And thirdly you say consent plays no part in the acceptance of homosexuality? I say it plays a big part because without consent, it would be considered rape which definitely isn't acceptable.

And just because people said one thing was acceptable 20 years ago doesn't mean I would have agreed with it. It doesn't offer a "perfect example of societal progression" because you're more focused on social stigma than the underlying RIGHTS involved.

I could care less whether you agree with the statements. My point was to prove that actions the current society views as intolerable will most likely become the accepted because of the ''evolution of society'' if you can refer to it as such. Further in regards to these "underlying rights'', who gives them, where do they come from and how does one determine how much they can infringe on these rights?

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I'm comparing illegality versus acceptance because for some twisted reason, you keep bringing it up with crap like "What is it then that can or will separate the approval of homosexuality from eventually the acceptance of bestiality?" It's already been explained: CONSENT. If there is no consent, it is illegal. Comparing bestiality versus homosexuality is absurd because it makes more sense to compare bestiality versus human sexual activity in general. That's the LEGALITY side. You're bringing up "acceptance" with your question of what makes something "inherently" right or wrong. Do you even understand your own argument? Social acceptance and the law are different things, and you're mixing the two up.

I get the notion that "consent is the reason why bestiality is illegal" because it IS why bestiality is illegal. Animals can't consent, and if you try to bang an animal, you'll get hit with all sorts of animal abuse charges.

Consent has no role in the acceptance of homosexuality. Consent pertains to activities such as rape. Why do you assume sexual consent has anything to do with whether or not homosexuality is okay? Homosexuals are human and can say "Yes" just as easily as any heterosexual can.

I agree that certain "socially intolerable" views are a bit ridiculous, but only because I find human ignorance to be ridiculous. Everyone has their own way of living life, and as long as those fundamental, utility-maximizing human rights are not violated, there should be nothing against such preferences.

My mother, for instance, is a huge homophobe. She finds it disgusting. Whenever the subject comes up, she says the most bigoted things ever. Unfortunately, a large part of society is like this. However, fortunately, I think our generation is a lot more open minded and free-thinking compared to the traditionalist thought process of many of our elders today, and so I foresee a lot of change in the right direction as long as fundamental rights are kept in check.

I told you earlier how underlying rights are derived. Re-read again if you don't understand.

[devonin]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

I'll be the one to give bobeck the answer he seems to be looking for:

Bobeck, if there were no issues of consent surrounding bestiality (ie. If animals could give consent, or we lived in a world where for whatever reason, consent was not required) then I would be 100% perfectly okay with the idea that some people would have sex with animals.

I'll give you a general principle that is one that addresses basically every point you've tried to raise here: "If all effected parties consent to X with a full understanding of X, X should be allowed, universally"

[MrRubix]

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?

It's already been made clear as day that consent is what defines the illegality of bestiality. He keeps mixing up legality and social acceptance. In the case of bestiality, it is both illegal AND socially unacceptable, and will likely never change because of the issues regarding consent. This is totally different from homosexuality, where the issues are, in large part, the result of social norms and not something like consent.

And just in the event that Bobeck is after this type of response: I would also agree that if an animal could give consent, I would be okay with people engaging in bestiality, however disgusting I may personally find it. I don't care what social norms are: I will live my life the way I want to, and anyone else should be able to do the same. However, you can't violate fundamental rights and laws in doing so. This is why I feel homosexuality will eventually become more legally and socially acceptable, much like the way racial integration has evolved. On the same token, something like bestiality will never see the light of day in the US for reasons already hammered to death in this thread.