Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Relambrien]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

You know, I'd really like to make a long in-depth post on the competitive vs casual mindset, why glitches aren't necessarily bad, placing the health of the game first, having fun through competition rather than recreation, etc, but there really is no point. This argument's been beaten to death probably five times within this thread alone.

Can we add a Godwin's Law to this thread? Basically, if things start to become an argument about competitive vs casual play, glitches, or anything of the sort, the entire discussion just ceases, everyone drops the subject, and something completely different is discussed.

Please?

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

I think we should make another thread so the "casual" gamers can see where "competitive" gamers stand. Not a thread for arguing. A thread for discussion. As for your post squeek. I read it. I didn't understand why not to use "techniques" vs noobs? If they don't put in the time why should they have any chance of winning? So we don't hurt their feelings?

For example. Soccer. I'm 5 yards outside the 18. I play for Manchester United and I am playing an American college team. I have the ability to curve the ball around the wall and into the net. This team I'm playing isn't good though and can't do what I'm about to do. Should I just pass it back to a player so we can pass it around or bend it into the goal? Well a good player would put that ball right into the goal whether they are playing a good or bad team. What if you are giving that bad team a chance and they ACTUALLY win? You know how much that hurts, to lose to the inferior player or team? Pretty bad. You know what it will do to the non better team? Push them to be better(HOPEFULLY).

[tsugomaru]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

So it is okay to use steroids and drugs to increase your running speed? Oh wait, it would be cheating because you're not suppose to abuse something to enhance your performance.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

So it is okay to use steroids and drugs to increase your running speed? Oh wait, it would be cheating because you're not suppose to abuse something to enhance your performance.

~Tsugomaru

That is cheating. Steroids is a drug not a technique.

[Squeek]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

No one is flaming lol. Your just getting upset. I asked you a question and you didn't even answer it. I'm trying to see where you are coming from.

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Please be mature about it too lol. Don't get upset.

[Relambrien]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

Fine then. I'll go all-out then. And I'm not trying to quell debates. I'm trying to quell a flamefest that's been done so many times in this thread already that there's really no point in beating the flaming horse again.

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Also, I don't think that l2awr is flaming those who play casually, but those who play casually and claim that it's the best way to play, condemning competitive play because it uses "illegal" techniques. I don't care how people play, but I care when they look down on others' playstyles because they don't play the same way.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

A competitive player strives to get better using any methods deemed legal, to win. Because that's what's fun for them. They love competition. A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual. I beat my brothers pretty much 99% of all matches in SSBM, and I still have fun. Lots of it, because I'm winning.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

When wavedashing was introdcued to Melee, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You people who condemn so-called "advanced techniques" because they are glitches are so closed-minded about what a glitch is. You automatically think it's something bad, horrible, and illegal. Well guess what? It isn't. A glitch is merely an unintended result of game code. In the case of advanced techniques, it's a fortuitous mistake. The introduction of advanced techniques increased the depth and competitive value of Melee far beyond what it could've been otherwise, with absolutely NO game-breaking effects. There was no "Instawin" button. People had to learn advanced techniques and apply them properly to win, and the variety that exists within advanced techniques helped the game so much that it's mind-boggling. Why can't you see that? Why can't you see that glitches can be beneficial, and thus shouldn't be discarded simply because they're glitches?

You don't seem to realize that how the developers made the game isn't necessarily the best way to play. See: Half-Life 2 and Garry's Mod. And also, here's a quote from Masahiro Sakurai, head developer of SSBB:

But still, it’s not like I want everyone to play through every single portion of the game. I think I’d rather you played small portions of the areas you find interesting a little at a time.

Whether you choose to go solo or play with friends, you’re covered, because Brawl is about playing the way you want to play.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

I have more to say, but I think it best if I just stop for now. I'll continue in another post later.

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Squeek, I think you need to look at things from a different point of view. Do it to learn because you know not everything you think is right, is actually right. Thats not meant for flaming. I think looking at things from a different point of view just turns you into a better/smarter person.

Nice post Relambrian. Your way better at expressing your ideas than I am lol =\

[blindreper1179]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

i come here to read about ssbb and all i see is tl;dr.

[tsugomaru]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

It's not a question of looking at more than one view, it's a question of preference. It's really insulting to see people say you suck at a game just because you don't think this or that character should be in the game or if you think that exploiting glitches, yes, that's right, I said exploiting glitches, should be used or not.

I'm pretty sure that there will be glitches in this game that people will exploit, giving them an unfair advantage in the game, but hey, if that ever happens, I'll choose not to play multiplayer or competitively. But there should be no reason to see people say I suck just because I don't exploit a glitch. Using my earlier analogy (a poor one, but you'll get it), I shouldn't have to hear from people that I suck at running because I don't take steroids for running faster or cut corners.

~Tsugomaru

[Relambrien]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

It's not a question of looking at more than one view, it's a question of preference. It's really insulting to see people say you suck at a game just because you don't think this or that character should be in the game or if you think that exploiting glitches, yes, that's right, I said exploiting glitches, should be used or not.

This I agree with.

I'm pretty sure that there will be glitches in this game that people will exploit, giving them an unfair advantage in the game, but hey, if that ever happens, I'll choose not to play multiplayer or competitively.

Incorrect. Wavedashing (to use the most infamous example) is not a glitch that is exclusive to some group of people. Everyone has the option of doing it. The reason it isn't an unfair advantage is because it's available to everyone.

What you're saying is comparable to saying that if you use Guard Impact against someone in Soul Calibur who doesn't know how, then you have an unfair advantage. If you can pull together strings of combos that others can't, then you have an unfair advantage. These techniques are available to everyone, which is part of the reason they're fair.

The difference between this and your steroids example is that, while both advanced techs and steroids are available to everyone, only the former has been vetted as legal by the community that runs the related competition.

But there should be no reason to see people say I suck just because I don't exploit a glitch. Using my earlier analogy (a poor one, but you'll get it), I shouldn't have to hear from people that I suck at running because I don't take steroids for running faster or cut corners.

And here you fall back into the imaginary "moral" line, where you assume all glitches to instantly be bad. There is no reason to assume, upon hearing something is a "glitch," that it is unfair or gamebreaking. As I've said before, glitches can be, and in Melee, are, beneficial to the game. You can't assume something is evil just because the developers didn't intend to put it there.

[tsugomaru]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

And here you are assuming my morals. Nowhere have I said I thought all glitches are bad and should never be used. I will more than willingly play with people who use these glitches and I won't complain if they are beating me because of it. However, when others start mocking me for sucking just because I'm not using the glitch, then we've got problems.

Take items, the second we turn it on, I suddenly become way better at the game and my friends have some trouble keeping up with me occasionally and they complain about me cheating and that it's unfair although they too can use the items that drop everywhere.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

And here you are assuming my morals. Nowhere have I said I thought all glitches are bad and should never be used. I will more than willingly play with people who use these glitches and I won't complain if they are beating me because of it. However, when others start mocking me for sucking just because I'm not using the glitch, then we've got problems.

Take items, the second we turn it on, I suddenly become way better at the game and my friends have some trouble keeping up with me occasionally and they complain about me cheating and that it's unfair although they too can use the items that drop everywhere.

~Tsugomaru

If you "suck", why not get better?

If your friends are hurting feelings then you need to sit down and talk to them about that or break their nose(kidding).

[plasmix]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Ok Squeek stop saying that snaking is a glitch. It is not.

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Ok Squeek stop saying that snaking is a glitch. It is not.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8il3gbVE1zE

THATS what you were complaining about?!? WOWWW.

It looks like it is making you move faster. Correct me if I'm wrong. Who would not want to do that? And if you are saying it is wrong because some or most people do not know how to do it, then they obviously do not care enough about the game to go learn it. If they did then they would go learn more about competitive Mario kart. I never knew Mario kart was competitive before this lol..