is the esrb doing a good job

[Relambrien]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Can I ask you just one question? It seems that the very root of the confusion is the word "mature."

When you say "mature," what exactly do you mean by that? If someone is "mature" enough to play a game, what does that mean to you?

[Squeek]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

It means they understand what's going on (not in cases of difficult plots. Just overall).

Take R-rated movies. Guns, violence, explosions, sometimes even sex. Not something you want to expose to a young teenager in the first place. But in any case, I'm sure they understand guns kill people and all that. But can they differentiate reality from the movie?

Most of the time, when people talk about maturity, it's the ability to distinguish reality from a movie, tv show, or video game.

I pretty much agree with the Wikipedia entry:

Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner; often this implies a response that is reasoned or learned rather than impulsive.

But I never took the cop-out courses on Psychology, so I'm not too learned on the matter.

[intensez]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

I think the ESRB can be wrong sometimes. I mean Shadow the Hedgehog should be rated "T". I know it sounds stupid for a Sonic game to be Teen, but you are using weapons. REAL weapons from REAL life.

When my little brother bought this game, I thought it was fine. I could care less actually. But when I saw guns in the game shooting people, I was laughing because when did a Sonic game come to using weapons? Also, when navigating through the menus it makes like a reloading sound and when clicked, it makes a gun shot. Then again, you are only shooting increative piece of crap enemies, so it doesn't matter entirely.

I thought this was kind of gay either way, but I think it should be a "T". I think any kind of real weapon should be put to a higher rating. Otherwise, I think ESRB is doing fine. I think most of their games are getting the correct ratings. I don't really look into many games, so I'm probably not 100% correct.

[purebloodtexan]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Squeek, in all honesty, it's sometimes okay for the parents do give mature games to their younger children. They just have to make sure that the child doesn't try to turn their video game into reality. My parents made sure it didn't happen, and I understood that it video games are simply pixels on a TV screen, and that it shouldn't be recreated. That being said, I was able to watch South Park at age seven, and played my first M game at atleast eight years old.

[Relambrien]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Alright, that clarifies things.

So basically, in order for someone to be mature enough to play an M-rated game (I'll use Halo as an example since we've been discussing it the whole time), they need to understand that what's going on in the game isn't real.

In the case of Halo, it would mean knowing that killing people in the game is alright, but is under no circumstances allowed in the real world. Knowing that people don't have shields or respawn in 3 seconds, that aliens aren't really going to come and blow up Earth (well, you understand what I mean by this), and things like that.

Essentially, if you can tell that what happens in Halo shouldn't be emulated in life, then you would be mature enough to play it, right? Being able to react reasonably to what's going on in the game?

Well, that further increases my conviction that Halo doesn't deserve to be an M. I don't know any high school sophomores (age 15) who would think that it's alright to do in real life what happens in Halo. I don't know any that go crazy with power or bloodlust when they kill something in a video game, and I don't know any who would be offended by the game either.

You said earlier that only 5% of underage players are probably mature enough to play. This means 95% of underage players, for some reason, cannot distinguish between reality and the game, and for some reason think that what happens in Halo is real.

You do realize you're saying that 95% of Halo players age 16 and below would experience and act on impulses caused by just killing someone in the game, right? That sounds just a little bit ludicrous to me.

[agent000_77]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

All i am saying is that ESRB is crap. They judge a game on a 5 to 10 minute trailer from the company. Remember "hot coffee". It was blocked out until someone found out that you could unlock the "mini-game". Then they went all homicidal, banned the game in certain countries, gave it an A0 rating and called it good. WHY? The mini game was not unlockable on the PS2 unless you had a cheating system. On the pc you needed a patch. Most smaller kids don't patch games like that manually. AND what for...the mini game was not even complete, it was missing textures and everything! IT sucked...why? Because RockStar realized that it wasn't worth it. its stupid that they got so much flak...stupid soccer moms, what do they know about video games.

[Squeek]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

You would be surprised by that which you do not know.

Also, it's not just going "oh, but I'm not a guy in a MJOLNIR suit killing aliens". You're thinking WAY too literally.

It's a psychological / subconscious thing that goes way beyond what you actually see on screeen.

Edit: It's comments like the above that irritate me the most and put the ESRB in a negative light for gamers.

No, the ESRB employees rating games do not sit with a game for 5-10 minutes. The process lasts several hours.

San Andreas was, in fact, changed just because of that. Because it showed that the code of the game had nudity in it. Even if it wasn't in the main version of the game, the game itself had nudity. That gives it an AO while all other 3D versions of the franchise retain their M (which needs to change).

Relam, if your point is that you can't put Halo and GTA in the same rating, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. If there were to be an increase in the age group for "T" or a decrease in the age group for "M", or a whole new group all together, I'd put Halo in there. However, I'd DEFINITELY bump GTA up into an 18+ group.

[purebloodtexan]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Well, I rest my case: My mom made me understand that the violence in video games in not to be repeated in real life. Not only was it impossible, but I wouldn't even try to repeat what went on on the TV screen.

Maybe it's because I'm a fortunate child. Maybe it's because my parents had 14 years of parenting before my birth. I don't know, but I didn't touch a gun unless instructed to.

[agent000_77]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

What!? Your offended by a *little* hyperbole?

Basically, the idea is of ESRB is good. I just don't believe they have or ever will have the gamers best interest in mind. They were made for soccer moms with overzealous view on what is "bad" for their children. That being stated, they are never going to have a lot of support. I agree with lord_carbo on the fact that their system is kinda skewed. If they made it so that gamers themselves helped with the ratings, it might actually be a useful system...I think you underestimate the maturity of a lot of gamers...Game Player Data

How Many Americans Play Games?

* Sixty-nine percent of American heads of households play computer and video games.

Who Purchases Computer and Video Games?

* Ninety-three percent of people who make the actual purchase of computer games and 83% of people who make the actual purchase of video games are 18 years of age or older. The average age of the game buyer is 40 years old.

How Long Have Gamers Been Playing?

* Adult gamers have been playing an average of 12 years. Among most frequent gamers, adult males average 10 years for game playing, females for 8 years.

Will Gamers Keep Playing?

* Fifty-three percent of game players expect to be playing as much or more ten years from now than they do today.

Who Plays Computer and Video Games?






For Computer Gamers...

* Thirty percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.
* Twenty-six percent of most frequent game players are between 18 and 35 years old.
* Forty-four percent of most frequent game players are over 35 years old.

For Console Gamers...

* Forty percent of most frequent game players are under eighteen years old.
* Thirty-five percent of most frequent game players are between 18 and 35 years old.
* Twenty-five percent of most frequent game players are over 35 years old.

What about Women Gamers?

* Thirty-eight percent of game players are women.
* Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%)

How Much Time Is Spent Playing Games?

* The average adult woman plays games 7.4 hours per week. The average adult man plays 7.6 hours per week. Though males spend more time playing than do females, the gender/time gap has narrowed significantly. Whereas in 2003, males spent an average of 18 more minutes a day playing games than did their female counterparts, in 2004 they spent ony six minutes more each day doing so. Females spend an average of two hours more per week playing games now than they did a year ago.

How many Gamers Play Games Online?

* Forty-four percent of most frequent game players say they play games online, up from 31% in 2002.

Who Plays Games Online?

* Fifty-eight of online game players are male.
* Forty-two percent of online game players are female.

What Other Activities are Gamers Involved In?

* Gamers devote more than triple the amount of time spent playing games each week to exercising or playing sports, volunteering in the community, religious activities, creative endeavors, cultural activities, and reading.
* In total, gamers spend 23.4 hours per week on these activities, compared to 6.8 hours per week playing games.
* Seventy-nine percent of game players of all ages report exercising or playing sports an average of 20 hours a month.
* Forty-five percent of gamers volunteer an average 5.4 hours per month.
* Ninety-three percent of game players also report reading books or daily newspapers on a regular basis, while sixty-two percent consistently attend cultural events, such as concerts, museums, or the theater.
* Fifty percent of gamers are regularly involved in creative activities, such as painting, writing, or playing an instrument. In addition, adult gamers exhibit a high level of interest in current events, with 94 percent following news and current events, and 78 percent reporting that they vote in most of the elections for which they are eligible.

Sound just like we gamers need a rating system so that we don't kill people...right.

Info found here.

60% of console gamers are 18 or older
70% of Pc gamers are 18 or older

hmm...considering 18 or older is generally considered adult, don't you think they would probably have a good opinion on what is appropriate for younger kids...so why are the ratings crap? Well, probably because GAMERS...again I must stress GAMERS are probably not all that involved in the rating system.

In other words, IT SUCKS!

[Relambrien]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Relam, if your point is that you can't put Halo and GTA in the same rating, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. If there were to be an increase in the age group for "T" or a decrease in the age group for "M", or a whole new group all together, I'd put Halo in there. However, I'd DEFINITELY bump GTA up into an 18+ group.

Thank you! That's what I've been trying to say the entire time.

In a more general sense, I believe that the current rating system puts too many restrictions on the ESRB, which is the reason for a lot of games needing rating changes. If the ESRB becomes allowed to slap any age minimum for their rating, the system becomes so much more versatile and so much easier to understand.

I was just using Halo as an example of the flaws in the system. Even though it probably is appropriate for those under age 17, it probably isn't appropriate for those age 13. However, since it's vastly more desirable to overestimate than underestimate, it had to be rated M.

With a versatile number-based system, that wouldn't be a problem.

[purebloodtexan]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

If we were the first to think about rating the games by actual age as opposed to age groups, do you think ESRB would take this into consideration?

[Relambrien]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

If we were the first to think about rating the games by actual age as opposed to age groups, do you think ESRB would take this into consideration?

I doubt we're the first. I'd also be surprised if the ESRB didn't think of it themselves but discarded it for some reason. That's what bothers me: a seemingly obvious change hasn't been used, so why not? I'm wondering what the reason is myself.

[chunky_cheese]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Specific ages would not work because it is far too specific. People mature mentally at different ages depending on what they are accustomed to. Also, boys and girls mature at different ages.

[Relambrien]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

Specific ages would not work because it is far too specific. People mature mentally at different ages depending on what they are accustomed to. Also, boys and girls mature at different ages.

See, there are two reasons that argument doesn't work.

First, it's the same problem as the current system. All the current system is is a set of ages, noted by letters (3+, 6+, 10+, 13+, 17+, 18+). Also, since people mature at different ages, who's to say an 11-year old can't handle a T game, or that the rare 17-year old can?

Secondly, board games have used the system forever and haven't seemed to have any problems. (Ages 10 and up, Ages 12 and up, etc.)

Either way, they're still just guidelines.

[Squeek]

Re: is the esrb doing a good job

hmm...considering 18 or older is generally considered adult, don't you think they would probably have a good opinion on what is appropriate for younger kids...so why are the ratings crap? Well, probably because GAMERS...again I must stress GAMERS are probably not all that involved in the rating system.

In other words, IT SUCKS!

Here's where you're wrong.

If we had gamers in the ESRB, it would be biased. Biased opinions yield biased results. That's not what a company setting national standards that involve children should have in its staff.

The ESRB's site even says there are ZERO people from or related to the video gaming industry employed at their company.