Homosexual Marriage

[T0rajir0u]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Glad we've cleared this up. You posting this link makes you a poster of irrelevent information. Good to know.

I fail to understand how the information I posted was irrelevant. The primary deterrent to my posting in this particular subforum is that what is supposed to be a place devoted to Critical Thinking is too often devoid of exactly that. I particularly have a bone with people who post their lazy and/or cornpone opinions without actually doing any thinking (I am not accusing you of this).

I posted that link to remind some of the posters in here to at least attempt to conform to a somewhat higher intellectual standard, since I don't have to read this discussion to know that that's not what's going on here. I mean, this is the FlashFlashRevolution website. Why this subforum even exists (in a non-invite-only format) is beyond me.

I do appreciate your bolding of the relevant parts of the article. They were precisely my point.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Maybe because heterosexuality and homosexuality aren't the only two kinds of sexualities out there? Bisexuals, asexuals, pansexuals, autosexuals, etc. Although I could have just said "GLB" or "LGB" and gotten the same basic point across, couldn't I have?

GLBT would have worked, but it also would have been too broad for the context of the discussion in some senses. The variance in the acronym opens up the possibility of different causes for each among other things, you see.

So the exact opposite is what you're saying. But as you would say, you can't just assume that. He was closer with his mother and his sister's friends because he was homosexual? That doesn't exactly seem fair to assume, either.

When working in the dark it's not unreasonable to strike out equally in all available directions. If you assume a position, why shouldn't I assume the contradictory position? That's how debate is done about issues with little empirical evidence to interpret.

No, actually, I wasn't making that mistake. I never said that ending up not a heterosexual was all social. If I didn't properly communicate that, my apologies, I was in Intro to Computer Science while posting that. Just because a boy is closer to his mother than with his father and he's good friends with all of his sister's friends doesn't mean that he's gay, or will turn out gay; however, if there IS, in fact, something in his DNA or whatever that could possibly make him turn out gay, then being closer with his mother and sister's friends could help push him towards that end result. Did that make sense? I'm hoping I was more clear this time.

So in this model homosexuality is some sort of recessive trait which can be triggered by risk factors? This is more coherent, but I would still object to it as I doubt sexuality is generally influenced by external events.

Like....just because you have something in your biology that could be largely in part responsible for making you homo- or bisexual, that doesn't mean that that's the only reason why--studies have been performed which have shown that atypical sexualities are in your DNA and others have shown that they aren't in your DNA. It's all more or less inconclusive, I think, but it's logically impossible to completely agree with either side of the debate and be 100% sure of your stance because we still don't know for sure what the exact causes for each sexuality are.

That shouldn't stop me from advocating a position as long as the position isn't one of violence or coercion.

Yes, DNA is assuredly part of it, but it can't be and, as far as I can tell, isn't the sole factor in determining sexuality.

I don't think DNA is necessarily part of it, because the last time I checked not everything which is biological is genetic.

OK, yeah, I can understand that. Wow, I never really thought of it that way, but you're absolutely correct--society wouldn't even exist if it weren't for humans wanting to create and uphold it. That's very interesting, thank you for that.

No problem.

[sgkoneko]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

What's THAT supposed to mean?! If I take how I think you've implied it, then I'll tell you now I'm just as masculine as the next guy.

Anyways, these are my insights, and coming from a gay guy himself, maybe it might explain something... if anything... or disprove stuff. Take it as you will.

Jono

Um Kamunt said that in reply to one of my quotes. And I'm a girl. Most people assume everyone on the internet is a guy, I have no idea why, but they do. Probably found out otherwise and fixed it.

They weren't implying anything at all to you.

[JonoSasson]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

My apologies. It's easy to get caught up in the moment!

homosexuality is some sort of recessive trait which can be triggered by risk factors?

It's hard to say. I dunno what made me turn gay. I was completely heterosexual until the age of 13. It was like a time bomb waiting to happen perhaps? It's interesting... I mean you can't compare it with anything because we don't know the actual cause. For the sake of argument however, we COULD compare it with say... personality traits. These aren't decided for us right from the word go. They're something that develop as we do as a human being. And from one instant to the next, personality can change in an instant. Not that that's exactly possible with homosexuality, but remember, this is just for the sake of argument...

It's funny, I was watching Boston Legal the other night, and there was a case involving a judge sueing a religious-based... franchise I suppose you could call it. This group aimed at targetting homosexuals into renouncing their 'gay faith' for what Christianity belived to be morally and socially correct. This judge sued this company because they failed to 'de-homosexualise' (for lack of a better term) him. Of course, he won the case on the grounds that there wasn't much of a case to be had anyway! They said things along the lines of, "In 50% of cases we convince homosexuals that they're not actually gay" and in support of this, they showed a few guys who had been healed. What was funny/wrong about it though was that there was this completely flamboyant, undoubtedly gay man who was on the witness stand, renouncing his gay faith. He said something like, "Oh no, it's like so wrong, just thinking about two guys makes me sick, like totally" with the lisp and all. I found it amusing. Also, David Spader is a great actor lol

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

It's hard to say. I dunno what made me turn gay. I was completely heterosexual until the age of 13. It was like a time bomb waiting to happen perhaps? It's interesting... I mean you can't compare it with anything because we don't know the actual cause.

Good point. We can't compare it to anything.

For the sake of argument however, we COULD compare it with say... personality traits. These aren't decided for us right from the word go. They're something that develop as we do as a human being. And from one instant to the next, personality can change in an instant. Not that that's exactly possible with homosexuality, but remember, this is just for the sake of argument...

We don't know what causes personality either, but the assumption is generally that personality is more fluid than sexuality, unless you're Gore Vidal. However personality is generally thought not to be hereditary at all, although this is somewhat silly because there virtually has to be something other than society at least partially responsible for one of the fundamental aspects of individuals which determines how society operates.

[Kamunt]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Oh crap, what happened to my post...?! Damn, I thought I posted it already, but apparently not...

I fail to understand how the information I posted was irrelevant. The primary deterrent to my posting in this particular subforum is that what is supposed to be a place devoted to Critical Thinking is too often devoid of exactly that. I particularly have a bone with people who post their lazy and/or cornpone opinions without actually doing any thinking (I am not accusing you of this).

Oh God, I'm so sorry!! The whole reason why I said what I did in your quote was because I thought you were saying it in reply to something I said...Wow, I completely missed the mark there. I'm so sorry, there's no excuse for me saying what I did. I hope you won't hold it against me...

I posted that link to remind some of the posters in here to at least attempt to conform to a somewhat higher intellectual standard, since I don't have to read this discussion to know that that's not what's going on here. I mean, this is the FlashFlashRevolution website. Why this subforum even exists (in a non-invite-only format) is beyond me.

While I'd be the first to admit that this topic hasn't exactly been a cavalcade of Doctorate-level thinking, at least looking at the last few pages, however, there's been a reasonably minimal amount of stupidity, I'd say. Most of the first-postards don't seem to be clogging up the topic anymore, so I'd say that, if anything, is an improvement. As for why this forum exists, my best guess we be that awhile back the intellectual proportion of the FFR population wanted a place where they could be intellectual without their topics being invaded by blithering fools. That's only a guess, though, of course, since I was not a part of this website at the time of this forum's conception.

I do appreciate your bolding of the relevant parts of the article. They were precisely my point.

N-No problem, T0ra...

GLBT would have worked, but it also would have been too broad for the context of the discussion in some senses. The variance in the acronym opens up the possibility of different causes for each among other things, you see.

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science--why one would want to become this is a very interesting question. Transexuality is otherwise something that HAS to happen at birth, where you get an abnormal combination of X and Y chromosomes, I believe. Possible combinations are, I believe, XXY, XYY, YY (maybe?), and even rarer, XXYY. You can't modify your own chromosomes, so you're either trans at birth or you're not--there's not much debate there, hopefully.

When working in the dark it's not unreasonable to strike out equally in all available directions. If you assume a position, why shouldn't I assume the contradictory position? That's how debate is done about issues with little empirical evidence to interpret.



That shouldn't stop me from advocating a position as long as the position isn't one of violence or coercion.

Fair enough. I suppose that's reasonable. Works for me, at least.

I don't think DNA is necessarily part of it, because the last time I checked not everything which is biological is genetic.

True, that was my mistake. I hope my message was still gotten across, at least.

[devonin]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Just as an aside, Transexual is a term that applies both to those who have physically undergone a sex-change operation, but also to those who identify themselves as the gender opposite to what their physicality suggests. For that reason, you'll find in the transexual community, people referred to as 'pre-op' and 'post-op' transexuals.

[archbishopjabber]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

The concept of post-op transsexuals is slightly unnerving to me, because you might not know right away... especially after a couple of drinks.

I completely support the right of someone to undergo the surgery, but it can still add large adam's apples to the list of something you don't want in a hook-up.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science--why one would want to become this is a very interesting question.

I'm not sure why your brain jumped to that particular train of thought in response to my post, nor that what you're saying is necessarily even true.

Transexuality is otherwise something that HAS to happen at birth, where you get an abnormal combination of X and Y chromosomes, I believe.

You believe wrong. At least in respect to chromosomes. It may very well be something which happens at birth.

Possible combinations are, I believe, XXY, XYY, YY (maybe?), and even rarer, XXYY. You can't modify your own chromosomes, so you're either trans at birth or you're not--there's not much debate there, hopefully.

Chromosomal variation is only one of a number of potential causes for transsexuality. In fact it might not even be a cause, but simply something seen in accompaniment with it. Or it mighty even be that chromosomal variation rarely has to do with transsexuality in the conventional sense; individuals with inter sexed physicality often have a more fluid sexuality than others. At least if I can trust my source on that, but given that the concept of sexual fluidity hails back to a time when psychoanalysis was the dominant theory of human consciousness and the more drastic suggestions of the theory in this area have since been disproven, that may not be the case.

There was a study done in dissecting brains which suggested that there's something in brain physicality, specifically in the hypothalamus which corresponds to sexual identity, but the study hasn't been recreated to my knowledge.

True, that was my mistake. I hope my message was still gotten across, at least.

Somewhat. It's good to start with some level of understanding even in the most general sense as long as you try to refine it.

[Chrissi]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science, etc

I'd like to be the second to point out that what you are saying is 100% wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.

A transexual is anyone who feels that their gender does not match their sex. A transexual does not require an operation to be transexual. They could also have normal chromosomes. Nobody knows what causes transexualism.

I have the benefit of personally knowing and being friends with a M->F pre-op transexual. I knew him before he realized he was trans, and I know her now as a good friend. Before she realized it.... you could always tell, something was a little off about him. You couldn't really tell what it was, but he just didn't seem like a normal guy. Now that he's realized that he's trans, you can just see how much happier she is. It really makes a lot of sense. Anyone else who's known someone like this will know what I'm talking about. It just seems like THIS is her natural form, and she's been lying all her life as a guy. Comparing.... you can tell how uncomfortable she was as a guy. I only anticipate better things as she progresses and possibly goes on hormones and gets operations. The one she really wants, believe it or not, is electrolysis on her face. Imagine having to shave often enough that your stubble isn't even visible. I think she's doing a great job. Though I really feel for her, she has to spend a lot of time in the morning getting fixed up. She's beautiful, too.

[/story]

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Why does it even matter what a transexual Is? I mean reguardless of the type of person or sex orientation, this discussion has to do with gay marriages. Unless anyone has a way to tie a transexual (which I'm curious to know how anyone would relate) to gay marriage, I don't see where this is going.

[Chrissi]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Why does it even matter what a transexual Is? I mean reguardless of the type of person or sex orientation, this discussion has to do with gay marriages. Unless anyone has a way to tie a transexual (which I'm curious to know how anyone would relate) to gay marriage, I don't see where this is going.

Actually, transexualism is a big thorn in the side to people who oppose gay marriage.

When a transexual changes genders, it is nearly impossible, if not impossible, to have their sex changed legally on their birth certificate. Without this, even if they marry someone of the opposite gender, it falls under "gay marriage" because both people were born the same sex. So even if a F->M wants to marry a woman, the law sees it as two women marrying.

Refusing gay marriage is equivalent to never allowing straight transexuals to marry.

And get this. If the transexual happens to be homosexual, THEY MAY MARRY. It is technically a straight marriage, even if the transexual is homosexual.

Basically, we need gay marriage. Period. Not just for gays, but for everyone else. I'm sure I've made this argument before somewhere and I don't want to repeat my explanation of how genders and even sexes are not binary.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

Actually, transexualism is a big thorn in the side to people who oppose gay marriage.

True, but mostly in demonstrating paradox in conception rather than in legality.

When a transexual changes genders, it is nearly impossible, if not impossible, to have their sex changed legally on their birth certificate.

It actually depends on the state. Both Colorado and Michigan allow for changes in birth certificate, and a number of other states do as well. I imagine Texas doesn't, but Texas isn't even part of the union.

Refusing gay marriage is equivalent to never allowing straight transexuals to marry.

It can be.

Basically, we need gay marriage. Period. Not just for gays, but for everyone else. I'm sure I've made this argument before somewhere and I don't want to repeat my explanation of how genders and even sexes are not binary.

You have no idea how rare and perceptive you are to understand that. Gender essentialist perspectives are at the core of so many problems today.

[Chrissi]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

You have no idea how rare and perceptive you are to understand that. Gender essentialist perspectives are at the core of so many problems today.

Actually I do understand it is rare - I study psychology and sexuality and that's probably the only reason I understand the concept of a non-binary gender and sex.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: Homosexual Marriage

So in psychology and sexuality do you about what is legal for a transexual? If not, how do you know about transexuals and how their marriages work?(just curious)