If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

[jamuko]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Thanks, Tyren. I was honestly thinking the exact same thing as everyone else when I came to this thread, so I didn't post anything... but you've brought back the point that it's really getting at.

I'm not so sure about your debate example, but I think you've opened this up to more discussion nonetheless.

It's really a philosophical question about reality. We are merely humans with senses capable of giving us perceptions about our environment. If there is no perception, then to us, it is the same as if nothing was there. Our world consists entirely of our perceptions. We don't really know a desk to be a desk; it's simply a combination of how it looks when we see it, how it feels when we touch it, etc., and that's what we label "desk". If something were to somehow falsely give us the same perceptions of that space, we would also call it a desk, regardless of what true "reality" is.

Philosophy is kind of complicated and confusing to talk about, but hopefully what I said makes sense.

This kind of gets into "The Matrix"-type theories too. What is reality? How do we know that what we are experiencing IS "reality"? What we feel may seem as real as possible, but how can we prove it's not a dream?

"I had a dream that I was a butterfly. But when I woke up, I wondered if I was actually a butterfly dreaming of me."

What if there is no objective reality?

[bluguerrilla]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

What if there is no objective reality?

Thank you!

[devonin]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Well, actually the question is (If I'm remembering correctly) a koan along the lines of 'what is the sound of one hand clapping?' I mean, the Simpsons demonstrated that one but misses the point completely.

If we approach the 'tree calls' question from a literal scientific standpoint, the earlier assertion about how it only makes a sound if there is a reciever to interpret the pressure waves as sound is true.

The philosophical portion of the question is, as mentioned above, designed to make you question the nature of reality, and whether you can believe that events can happen outside of intelligent observation. Quantum theory has just as much to say about this as Zen philosophy does, and is pretty much its own seperate thread as a question.

[slipstrike0159]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

[Relambrien]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Reality in itself, for our sake, is basically just the general consensus of perception. Arguing whether or not we are experiencing reality is virtually pointless because in the general association with ones self and others around you will find a common sense of perception which gives you a firm grasp, or foothold rather, that you can start basing science off of.

As for those people who literally interpret this question and say no because no human was around to hear it, then what about sounds that only dogs can hear? We label them as sound without ever having heard it because of our difference in sound perception. I think for the most part we experience the effects of "sound" which lets us know it happened and that it existed (such as the whole dog whistle thing). So from this you deduce that sound was emitted because you could see the associated event that took place and from that result assume from all other previous experiences of perception that it did in fact create an audible sensation known as sound.

The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

[devonin]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

When the question is posed saying "And nobody is around to hear it" they don't mean just and only humans. You could say "And nothing is present to recieve and interpret the waves" which makes for a much less catchy phrase but explains the situation far better.

Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

[Relambrien]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Bear in mind once again though: The question as posed was philosophical, not literal, as evidence by the fact that the literal answer is so conclusive and easy to describe.

This is very true. And the Wikipedia article linked to earlier is an extremely comprehensive article describing the implications. All we have to go by is seeing a tree on the ground, so that by our perceptions of reality, it must have fallen and therefore hit the ground with enough force to create a vibration, which, had something been close enough, would have evolved into sound. This is an assumption because we have no way of knowing for sure.

[xinpig]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

think about this if i start playing an ffr song and then when i hear it i walk away and then it stops making a sound?

it still makes sound even though i am not there

BAM!!!

[arelik]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.

[slipstrike0159]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

The reason dog whistles create sound is because the three requirements of sound can be met...by dogs. A transmitter (the whistle), a medium (the air), and a receiver (the dog's ears) are all present. Thus, sound.

Read again... i said that for those that think that HUMANS have to be present.

[devonin]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Quoted from Wikipedia, the 'sound' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
"By sound, we commonly mean the vibrations that travel through air and can be heard by humans. However, scientists and engineers use a wider definition of sound that includes low and high frequency vibrations in air that cannot be heard by humans, and vibrations that travel through all forms of matter, gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas."

The scientific definition of sound shows that a "receiver" is not required for it to exist.

Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

[Shashakiro]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

The answer is all based on the definition of sound that you use

If you define sound to require a reciever, it makes no sound. Otherwise, it does.

Not really much of a debate to be made there. Unless I'm mistaken, it's just two different interpretations of the word "sound", neither of which has any reason to be more correct than the other. I personally think the idea that sound waves have to have a receiver before becoming sound is a rather stupid one, and I'm not sure why anyone would define it that way, but that's just me.

[Tyren]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

[arelik]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

Actually that definition says nothing of the sort. It says "Things can be sounds that are not able to be heard by humans" That says nothing about sound with no reciever. It says something about sound with no -human- reciever.

Alright, then that means the tree DOES make a sound because the sound waves are received by everything around it.

Arelik, It should also be taken into consideration that anyone can write on wikipedia, so one is only attaining a definition relative to the individual writing it, rather then as something that has been socially agreed upon.

You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

[theinsomniacnimrod]

Re: If A Tree Falls Does It Make A Sound?

You're not quite right because the sound article is important and has been read by many people, and if something wasn't right or socially agreed upon it would be corrected. The fact that the text I quoted is in the 2nd paragraph and it's the definition of what the whole article is about makes the chances of it being wrong very small.

Hmmm idk people spam wikipedia for fun - I mean, I looked up sedimentary rocks once and it said the source for their creation was "poop" - wikipedia is never a reliable source, no matter how convincing or obvious the answer is, and any professor or teacher will tell you that. Just because a lot of people believe something to be true does not make it so; if that was what we based science on we would have lots of problems...

But back to the topic, either way the tree has to hit the ground when it falls, producing vibrations - unless it falls in empty space - then we have a different scenario. The sound is there, but the human isn't. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thats like saying dinosaurs didn't exist just because we weren't around to see them. Humans aren't the center of all happenings and events in the universe...