The Point of education

[psychic25]

RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

Well, in response to that essay:

A big part of high school is the social stuff- true. However, that social stuff is actually very important (from what I've noticed, at least). When you get a job later in life, there is a need for social skills of some sort. Every job requires some sort of interaction- with your boss, with your coworkers, etc. School is good training for this, although I do agree that sometimes the social stuff does get in the way of learning- stress over something like clothes can cause you to forget to do that book report or huge project.

I do enjoy learning- I think it's pretty cool to find out why something happens a certain way, or to learn how to say new things in a different language. I believe that most people enjoy this as well. Granted, some people may not like certain things- some people don't care about history (I don't) so they don't like learning ideas from that subject. However, everybody has interests, and likes at least one subject that they teach in public schools. Everybody likes learning, but not everybody likes what they "have" to learn.

Also, I believe that grades are crap. Grades exist to set standards for learning, right? Well, a lot of people that get good grades don't have to learn anything- a lot in school is memorization. I'm not talking about the vocabulary stuff or language words (these are needed and I have no problem with learning these)- I'm saying that all you have to do to get a high grade in the class is memorize the things for one chapter, remember them until the final, and then forget them forever. You don't need to have any idea of what they mean, you just need to "know" them. If you don't take the effort to memorize all of these seemingly useless facts, you are perceived as stupid, both by the teacher and your peers. Because of this, you now have a bad attitude toward that class and the "learning" that goes on in that class, which can easily extend to learning in general. Learning in general can include real learning- the things that you will take and keep and treasure forever. These kids would like to learn, but they won't because of a bad experience with rote memorization (read: "learning").

Wow, I really used "learning" too much in that.

[Ybom]

RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

I'm very interested in the learning process of society today. I think a big part of the problem is the communication, and right after that is stubbornness. I pose a question to every single one of you who have posted here. How do you propose to fix this learning mess?

[The_Q]

RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

I say to you this, Ybom. Is it a mess? I find it absolutely wonderful that so many people are dropping out of the competition early. Why is this bad?

I gain from their loss. It's just that simple. You gain from it, assuming you are not part of the mess. Your so called "mess" is my blessing.

Education for the masses? Bah! Private schools all 'round!

Q

[Ybom]

RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

(The) Q, I find it riveting and quite amazing that you think completely outside of the box on this subject. I appreciate it and absolutely love it in fact.

The problem I have is that I had a bad experience at the 'american' version of the education system, and I expect based on my problems that many others in many different places have had some level of difficulty as well (I hate overgeneralization, since I definitely used it there). Technically speaking, percentages don't matter to me. If one person out of six billion has had a bad experience growing up in any education system around the world, that one is too many, no matter who benefits from his or her malady.

I agree that imperfection yields a quite vast and dynamic society, but I think nature peeks through into everything (which is probably why it's fun to stomp on ants...imperfectioning a perfect system). Why I'm tossing nature into the mix here is for a very good reason.

You see, applying the dynamic and chaotic structure of nature invariably into everything that you can find in earth experiences, even perfect education (where everyone is enlightened at the end let's just say) means that it won't be grey or bland or redundant. If it is, then we're not talking about a perfect education system (yes I believe there is more than one way to perfection), instead we're talking about an unreal system of cold hard mismanufactured forcefed memorization (erm I meant education).

The benefits of providing everyone in the world a perfect education, while sort of off topic, most likely would include a better society due to reduced miscommunication, better technology, better proportioned time and energy management, and so on. Many people, including myself and you probably on some level, 'spin their wheels' on everyday tasks that could have been simple (or simpler) otherwise. Essentially, the benefits on a humanistic level would be reduced stress and more fulfillment.

A metaphor, how I see the system: I liken this to a process of getting milk from cows prior to pasturization. How long did milk last back then? Compare this to the current (bah doesn't even have to be average) level of attention spans if you will (or even better liken it to the small percentage of well fulfilled people). It just didn't last/get any better, man! Not much chance for us, or the milk. Don't you think a better (I hate this next word) standard would make a higher percentage of people happier? Pasturization did, why can't 'enlightenization' do the same thing?

I know, call me stupid for relating two unrelated things, but somehow I have to try to get this concept across. The process and the results should have a similar look anyways. I just really want people to understand what it is all of us higher folks feel even if I have to sacrifice some difference in potential between us. I guess a decent interpretation is 'stop beeing so selfish' with our cloud nine! I think this is a big issue that really needs to be repaired, overhauled, or replaced quickly so I can talk to ten intelligent people in maybe eleven, instead of one in hundreds.

As for ways to fix the system, I don't think it'll be easy at all. However, I think a new thread needs to be made for that. I think there's a big difference between knowing about a problem, and trying to fix the problem.

Now, Q, can you please critique this and find problems with what I have said? I have tried to edit it to the best I could for a simple thread post. Some logic may have been flawed in the process from the vague idea grasp to the submit button, so please do me the honor if you would. Thank you in advance! (I already fixed a few minor problems on my own; I may edit it more later)

[The_Q]

You're sorry for relating milk to education? What's wrong with you, man? Using models is absolutely wonderful! I love it and I'm sure almost everyone who read that (fabulous) post would agree that it really did help the read go along much more smoothly.

Now, I don't believe a scrap of what you claimed at all. I'd say that your ideology is fantastic and absolutely unbelievable. Of course, it makes perfect sense to believe that the average joe would believe such nonsense about a "utopia". Unfortunately, utopia doesn't exit, won't exist, and shouldn't. Especially not your utopia.

What is it about an equal society that makes it perfect? Its the fact that everyone is unequal that makes our society run. For instance, your method to make everyone produce more is total bull. Why, if everyone gives as much output as me, would I want to do any work if they could just do it for me? I'd slack off. If everyone else had that mentality, they'd do the same. Because many people do, that means a decreased productivity, and not just a little bit.

Now, on the other hand, we have the incentive method. Sure, you'd get some incentive to compete if everyone else had an equal level of enlightenment as you, but not as much as if there are few with quite a bit of enlightenment. Those that monopolize the small amounts of knowledge are the ones who succeed, and the want of the people to acheive that level will cause them to strive for it (and in the process, produce more).

Ok, what's wrong with that. I might have missed a few points but it's 1 AM.

Q

[blahblah18]

just because it was set up so nicely, I ahve to quote 1984... or at least paraphrase since i left my copy at school....

There are three classes, the ruling class, the middle class, and the lower class... The ruling class maintain power at any cost , but primarily by bribing the middle class into thinking they can ascend into the ruling class... The middle class preaches justice,fariness, and equality to get the lower class on their side but their goal is merely to overthrow the ruling class and become the ruling class themselves... The lower class, will inevitably remain the lower class.

[The_Q]

There are three classes, the ruling class, the middle class, and the lower class... The ruling class maintain power at any cost , but primarily by bribing the middle class into thinking they can ascend into the ruling class... The middle class preaches justice,fariness, and equality to get the lower class on their side but their goal is merely to overthrow the ruling class and become the ruling class themselves... The lower class, will inevitably remain the lower class.

QFT

That's the way the world works. Get used to it.

Q

[whorlichan]

Re: RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

A big part of high school is the social stuff- true. However, that social stuff is actually very important (from what I've noticed, at least). When you get a job later in life, there is a need for social skills of some sort. Every job requires some sort of interaction- with your boss, with your coworkers, etc. School is good training for this, although I do agree that sometimes the social stuff does get in the way of learning- stress over something like clothes can cause you to forget to do that book report or huge project.

Yes and no. I went through most of high school with a very small group of friends--but I didn't meet them until just before freshman year ended. For most of that year (which was traumatic for other reasons as well, mostly because I went from a 300-person private school to a 3500-person public school) I was a total loner. I ate alone, sat alone, read alone, and knew NO ONE in my classes...which was bad as I tend to skip school a lot. Still, I managed to get a job just fine and can handle myself well around people, even though I don't like most of humanity.

I do enjoy learning- I think it's pretty cool to find out why something happens a certain way, or to learn how to say new things in a different language...Everybody likes learning, but not everybody likes what they "have" to learn.

True, and yet still not quite there. You may not like history, but like Santayana said, those who forget it are doomed to repeat it. If we don't know what went on in the past, what goes on now will not make much sense. I don't like learning math, and I suck at it terribly, but I know that it will come in handy for my other classes--physics and organic chemistry and genetics--EVEN THOUGH I will not actually use the mathematics part once I'm out of college.

Also, I believe that grades are crap. Grades exist to set standards for learning, right? Well, a lot of people that get good grades don't have to learn anything- a lot in school is memorization...I'm saying that all you have to do to get a high grade in the class is memorize the things for one chapter, remember them until the final, and then forget them forever. You don't need to have any idea of what they mean, you just need to "know" them.

Again, not completely true. My classes this semester seemed that way on the surface--here's the chapters, memorize them and spit out the information and you'll be fine. But when we got to the actual tests, the teachers had manipulated the stuff we learned by rote. They turned it inside out and backwards, or made you work from a different direction than the examples in the book, or even asked a question about something you had memorized, but in such a fashion that it was not immediately obvious. You actually had to look and think about everything before you just filled in a blank or bubbled on a scantron.

And here's the rub--my lab partner, who's very very good at book-learning and memorizations--she did terribly in these classes, which she is not used to because she got straight A's on everything else she's ever done because it WAS just memorizations. I got straight A's this semester and I actually learned a lot.

[Tasselfoot]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

Ybom... the reason Qs analysis is so interesting to you is because his reference point is Economics. everything he argues is based around monetary gain and productivity, and through those to him making money through being as inactive as possible.

and, to further Whorli's point to psychic... i'm going to go out on a limb and venture you aren't in college yet. when you get to college and start taking courses for your major, you will realize that everything you learn is relevent and needed for working with the next course. like in math... if you don't know how to take integrals (calc 1), you will have a very challenging time with more advanced courses (calc 2, 3, etc)

ps - hehe... you said rub hun. <3

[Ybom]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: The Point of education

I respect how y'all feel. I must say though that 1984 was a fictional piece of work, although most people seemingly take it as a real life history book sometimes. I'm not even coming remotely coming to that setting anyways.

As for why I think Q's posts are interesting, he is helping me easily see the monetary gain side of life, and I really respect how he takes the time to really get in depth as to how he feels. It makes sense, does it not?

As for how the world works, I genuinely believe that the world does not have to rely on money to get along.

I would like to know if you, Q, could give any type of prediction, no matter how far fetched it is, as to what would happen if 95% of the world population wasn't focused on the short term benefits of profit so much as the long term benefits of technological gain. Can you do me a favor and try honestly to do a paragraph or two? Essentially this is for S&G's...nothing more nothing less...

[torres1287]

This is great to sit back and read everyone's views on the education system. The fixing part of it is where I come in at. Here where I live, I am a junior school board member. Meaning, I get to listen to everyone talk and complain about the school system and then mold it to where everyone is happy...and finally...relay this to the school board and make changes. Just this past meeting, we talked about supplying more classes and so forth. Keep talking...I'm really enjoying this thread.

I love school! I take what many people would call "the harder classes". I hate being forced to learn and I don't do it to learn...I do it to keep myself busy. I am extremely intelligent in the things I know a lot about...and this is why I MUST take harder classes. Where I am, they focus mainly on those who are lagging behind and not on those who are well beyond their classmates. I don't want to make the image saying I'm better than everyone else...that's not my goal. I'm just saying that there's quite a few people who share the same problem of not being challenged enough.

[QreepyBORIS]

The purpose of education is well summed up by Pink Floyd's album "The Wall".

Also, to make you make money for your country!

[torres1287]

...never heard the album...*imagines a wall with many MANY people banging their heads into it*...

[QreepyBORIS]

It's about how the system crushes you like a wall. It is also about how the system crushes you into a braick, which is a replacable part of a whole.

Actually, only 3 songs out of like 30-40 are about the education system, but, eh.

[torres1287]

*has seen the light* why thank you...my interpretation wasn't off by much now was it?...