alternate universes what do you think?

[Z3ratul]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

I think the article is just explaining our different interpretations of time. I'm gonna say that time doesn't have any substance, it's just a way of measuring change in this universe. An irreversable progression.

[mattyohh]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

We need a bit of Aternate Oblivion in here. Wouldn't that get interesting. I AAA'd that universe.

[Charlotte21]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

the most pleasing thought to me is that if i were on my way into a singularity, there would be black all around me and and time would travel very very slowly.

[Reach]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

I mean, theoretically you could watch the end of the universe near an event horizon, but it would never actually happen; you'd die long beforehand.

And I mean, it's hard to say if we have choice or not. It's obvious that there is cause and reaction in the universe, but we're living organisms. Conciousness isn't exactly something we understand. Not to mention at a quantum level, you can predict what is going to happen but will never know what is going to happen; meaning that even if we are predictable and such, there should always be an uncertainty factor in whatever we're doing. And that's assuming the human mind works in such a way.

[Z3ratul]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

And I mean, it's hard to say if we have choice or not. It's obvious that there is cause and reaction in the universe, but we're living organisms. Conciousness isn't exactly something we understand. Not to mention at a quantum level, you can predict what is going to happen but will never know what is going to happen; meaning that even if we are predictable and such, there should always be an uncertainty factor in whatever we're doing. And that's assuming the human mind works in such a way.

That's exactly what I'm thinking... just wish I could put it as intelligently as you did.

[jlapointe]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

It's obvious that there is cause and reaction in the universe

Many would disagree with this (ie Hume).

Everything we know and think and see is entirely a product of perception.

Actually understanding the way the universe(s) work(s) is entirely hindered by our thought patterns as human beings, and by our culture ingrained into our general way of thinking.

I totally agree with this, and also with Charlotte's longer post.

However on a different note, I don't think you should leap to any conclusions about determinism. It seems like our thoughts are determined by nothing other than previous events, but what actually is a thought, or an experience? It would be hard to deny that we do have thoughts and experiences, and these things require a consciousness. Since we don't know what consciousness is, we can hardly say it plays no role in determining our thoughts. What if we're wrong about a lot of things, and it somehow stands outside the chain of cause & effect? Then you can no longer say we have no role in determining our own actions.

[Reach]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

I don't see how you could logically disagree. I punch you in the arm. Cause. Reaction? Pain. Or say, a star collapses. Cause. Reaction? Formation of a black hole.

Maybe if you were to talk about it in another sense, but that is exactly what I mean.

I agree with some things Hume has said. I don't quite get his passages on causation though. I mean, I understand what he is saying, but logically it makes no sense whatsoever to me. It just sounds like he's screwing with the definition of cause and effect to be honest, not the actual principle behind it XD Reminding me of the 1+1 does not equal 1 argument, which is an absolutely irrelevant argument. 1+1 is defined by us because we said it was true, it's an arbitrary definition. Saying 1+1 does not equal one does not mean anything, you can say 1+1 = 7, you are only changing the definition, not the principle of mathimatics.



I'll never believe we have absolutely no choice. Never, until it can be proven anyway. Sounds like something someone lazy would support. "I am a lazy useless human being, and it's not my fault because I have no choices in life!!!"

[jlapointe]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

Saying 1+1 does not equal one does not mean anything, you can say 1+1 = 7, you are only changing the definition, not the principle of mathimatics

Well...I don't think so. Because "1+1" isn't given by definition. Rather, "1" and "plus" are given by definition, as are all the other numbers and mathematical operations. And by those definitions, 1+1 must equal 2.

And Hume's causation argument goes something like this. Say you have two events, called A and B. If we see B happen after A a million times, our brain just says "B must always follow A", or "A causes B" even though there's no proof of it, we've just seen it happen a lot. There's no real reason why the two events must always happen together.

Furthermore, since there are so many cases where we see events constantly conjoined like this, we notice a pattern. We say, "hey, there are such things as causes and effects, and the same effects always follow from the same causes". But again, this is only based on observing things over and over again. There is no argument by reason alone that proves the existence of cause & effect (at least Hume didn't think so).

Now Kant wrote a book that apparently did show that cause & effect can be proven by pure reason, but I doubt everyone agreed with it, and I haven't read it so I can't say whether I do.

And oh yeah, I agree with your last comment. I think there are a lot of people who use that (as well as fate) as an excuse for everything.

[TheRaiRaiEatsBalloons]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

"I am a lazy useless human being, and it's not my fault because I have no choices in life!!!"

I agree with that statement, but I don't agree with living that way (though I wouldn't stop anyone from living that way if they so desired--their loss).

As I said earlier in this thread, I don't believe we have a choice, but we're generally required to live as if we do, or else everything pretty much goes to waste (moreso than it unquestionably does in the first place, anyway).

[Reach]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

Well...I don't think so. Because "1+1" isn't given by definition. Rather, "1" and "plus" are given by definition, as are all the other numbers and mathematical operations. And by those definitions, 1+1 must equal 2.

Which is essentially what I said, except you're being more specific. XD

And Hume's causation argument goes something like this. Say you have two events, called A and B. If we see B happen after A a million times, our brain just says "B must always follow A", or "A causes B" even though there's no proof of it, we've just seen it happen a lot. There's no real reason why the two events must always happen together.

Which I understood after reading some Hume. However, I don't see how this disagrees with cause and effect. Nothing necessarily has to happen, but that doesn't mean that whatever happened didn't have a cause, which is what I mean by cause and effect.

Everything in the universe would be, in essence, a self manefestation - a consequence of a fundemental action (big bang?). But again, this applies to things without conciousness, it really is impossible to deduce, even assuming everything is predetermined (which simply shouldn't be possible applying quantum), that we have no choice.


As for the actual question in the thread title, the thought of alternate universes has always bugged me. It's just hard to comprehend, because if more of them exist, who's to say there is not an infinite number of them and even an infinite number of things larger than universes? I have a hard time believing that, atleast until we get more information on the subject and can make more specific scientific speculations and close holes in critical missing information.

[Z3ratul]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

I agree with just about everything here, so it's hard to comment... but I have a few things to say.

It sounds to me like you guys just talking about probable causation. I agree; however, I've never been a fan of the 'cause and effect' relationship when used outside of physics' terms, even if it's logically sound in such cases.

Reach, I enjoy reading your posts. You strike me as a Libertarian, which is where I would probably fall too... more willingly though, an Existentialist.

And Rai... the point I'm trying to get to you is that if we have no choice but we NEED to live as such to function properly, then why not just believe that we do have free choice? It seems like that would give things more meaning... if you argue with the 'that's just not how I think, I'm made that way', it seems to me like you're doing just what the lazy person would do- accepting a fate. The other thing that your belief strikes me as the idea of justice and morality- according to your belief, it's seemingly, from an observable, uneffected standpoint, 100% okay for somebody to walk in your home, steal your stuff, rape your mom, and chop off your penis. For me to think that way, choice or not, is just too damn depressing.

[Grandiagod]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

To define 1+1 to equal 7 would just change the name and the relative meaning. It still would be 2 no matter what you called it. (Unless you want to talk quantum math)

[Z3ratul]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

It's a language barrier, we mean the same thing. Simple stuff. Quantum Math however, elaborate please... I am noob. I'm unsure of what you're talking about...

And adding to what I said... the idea of Determinism is also interesting when combined with Chaos Theory, since it's usually dependant on initial conditions, and while appearing to behave randomly, it's still determined in the parameters in which it can choose from. Makes ya wonder...

Back to Rai, maybe I'm asking the impossible from you, since we seem to have a gap. You think we don't have free choice, I (to certain extents) think we do. Meh.

[Reach]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

To define 1+1 to equal 7 would just change the name and the relative meaning. It still would be 2 no matter what you called it. (Unless you want to talk quantum math)

Exactly. But yea, there was this stupid debate on campus over wether or not 1+1 actually was equal to 2. And naturally, people taking philosophy began overcomplicating everything avoiding any logical statements put forth with lots of big words and ambiguous mumbojumbo.


Oh and Zeratul (ps starcraft is awesome), certain things at a quantum level happening randomly, or say, waves could have a perceived effect like, 1+1 being 3 ex. 2 waves collide and make what would appear to be 3 of them.

[Z3ratul]

Re: alternate universes what do you think?

2 waves collide and make what would appear to be 3 of them.

Ahh, that clears it up. thanks. XD