fuck Georgia

[aperson]

Re: fuck Georgia

you just can't convince me that the lower classes are voting to subjugate women (post-edit; you can't convince me that their primary motivation is to subjugate women, and not to protect the lives of the unborn); they just, overwhelmingly, have to feel like abortion is murder.

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm

Some scholars take the stance that this passage was not originally from Paul the Apostle and was later added. I agree with their analysis. Regardless, there is a long lineage of subjugation of women stemming from the word of God as written here.

You seem to have an extremely naive understanding of evangelical Christianity. I would recommend educating yourself before giving them the benefit of the principle of charity.

[aperson]

Re: fuck Georgia

Like sure, you've got funnygirl's poll showing breakdown of people who said "Yes I'm pro life" when asked if they were pro life, but if you actually look at who wants to actually create anti-abortion laws, it's almost nobody.

Yep. Polling is a clusterfuck and small changes in methodology can greatly change outcomes

[the sun fan]

Re: fuck Georgia

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm

Some scholars take the stance that this passage was not originally from Paul the Apostle and was later added. I agree with their analysis. Regardless, there is a long lineage of subjugation of women stemming from the word of God as written here.

You seem to have an extremely naive understanding of evangelical Christianity. I would recommend educating yourself before giving them the benefit of the principle of charity.

Firstly, I find this condescending when I don't think that that was warranted.

Secondly, my focus is not on evangelical Christianity. Its on the reasoning people give for their beliefs. But to mention this route, I think yes, there is a link between the reasons why people oppose abortion and their faith. I think that they don't justify their reasoning with whatever bible verse(s) mention(s) the subjugation of women to men. They just believe that abortion is equivalent to murder. I know of the verses you quoted; I had a long discussion with someone in high school whose church didn't allow women to speak (though I must admit that I am fuzzy on the details).

I also don't think I'm being charitable to anyone; I think, honestly, that there's too many people blinded by their own beliefs to see the other side clearly. On both sides.

[Funnygurl555]

Re: fuck Georgia



another poll from the same site

once again, men and women want this in equal amounts. it's a women's issue but not a men's vs women's issue. thanks for ya time

sunfan's also dead on.

edit: this sounded snippy so i also wanted to add that i agree with the criticism of the polls i linked the first time. but im not backing down on my claim

[Saiyanwannabe]

Re: fuck Georgia

wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.

[DaBackpack]

Re: fuck Georgia

internalized misogyny is a thing

[benguino]

Re: fuck Georgia

Siding with sun fan here in that I don't think a typical pro-lifer lays down in bed at the end of the day and thinks "Hmm... what are some ways I can actively subjugate women tomorrow?"

Just because an action has a certain consequence (e.g. women being subjugated due to anti-abortion laws being passed) doesn't necessarily imply that that consequence is the motivation of those that do or support such actions.

In addition, the exact motivations are going to vary depending on what subgroup of people are being looked at. The motivations and exact belief system of a typical low/middle class that self-identity as a pro-lifer is going to be different than a politician in a position of power to push forward anti-abortion legislation. Similarly, there are going to be differences if you compare atheists, typical church goers, and those in a position of power in their religion.

Looking at a typical person, they are going to be socialized to think that "Murder is bad!" in general. And many people are socialized to picture abortion as the "murdering" of an unborn "baby" (the quotes are intentional). This view of abortion makes it clearly "bad" if someone takes the belief "murder is bad" unconditionally without any additional thought.

However, we "murder" bacteria, plants, pests, other animals for food, etc. Of course, we really know that these things typically "don't count" as murder. So I think that most self-proclaimed pro-lifers either (1) haven't really thought much about the "conditionally" of murder or (2) have thought about it and have reason to believe that abortions still "count" as murder. These reasons might not make sense, might be self-contradictory with their current belief system, whatever.

I think I'm rambling and I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I'm trying to say that I was once young, dumb, and naive and growing up, the notion of "murder is bad" + "abortions are murder" together gave me the belief that "abortions are bad" upon first thought when I was much younger. I know this is primarily anecdotal and doesn't speak for everyone's experiences, but like sunfan, I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.

[benguino]

Re: fuck Georgia

Oof, almost forgot...fuck Georgia.

[mellonxcollie]

Re: fuck Georgia

I guess I'm trying to say that I was once young, dumb, and naive and growing up, the notion of "murder is bad" + "abortions are murder" together gave me the belief that "abortions are bad" upon first thought when I was much younger. I know this is primarily anecdotal and doesn't speak for everyone's experiences, but like sunfan, I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.

This is true for young, dumb, naive people like kids who grow up in the church. But once you got older you thought critically about it and thought differently, right?

Church going type people in general want to give off this air of naive innocence, "I just have my own innocent beliefs", but a lot of the time its a facade. They get it. I think if they really believed abortion is murder, they wouldn't use such bullying tactics and instead would offer compassion. They don't want to help the women prevent pregnancy, they want to punish them after the fact. Anyone who can't or won't think critically about this issue doesn't get a pass from me just because "they really believe it" anyway but honestly, that's not as common as you guys are making it out to be. Religious people are very subtle like this on purpose

[mellonxcollie]

Re: fuck Georgia

Theres an execution scheduled in Alabama today that the Governor is overseeing. That's about as much as I believe that most of these people "really believe in" abortion being murder

[Funnygurl555]

Re: fuck Georgia

Church going type people in general want to give off this air of naive innocence, "I just have my own innocent beliefs", but a lot of the time its a facade. They get it.

They don't want to help the women prevent pregnancy, they want to punish them after the fact.

Anyone who can't or won't think critically about this issue doesn't get a pass from me just because "they really believe it" anyway but honestly, that's not as common as you guys are making it out to be.

Religious people are very subtle like this on purpose

these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.

and i speak as an immigrant communitiy's nightmare, dissociating from culturally/religiously held beliefs are difficult, and condemning people for not doing so is not how you solve the problem

in other words, listen to your bud sunfan.

[G.S.M]

Re: fuck Georgia

wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.

well... this is the chit chat section of the forums and is not against the rules. The reason most threads are locked is because it goes completely off-topic, or posts are deleted if they are just simply insults.

when it comes to controversial stuff I think most people here can be respectful enough about a topic without acting like a complete idiot... most of the time

[rayword45]

Re: fuck Georgia

It's worth remembering that the Alabama bill was sponsored by a woman and signed by a woman. I've got no doubts that huge factions of men "want to control women's bodies" but framing it like that on a widespread level instead of as a political power move is really counterproductive IMO

[rayword45]

Re: fuck Georgia

these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.

I agree that generalizing the religous isnt gonna change minds

still tho its lame to compare religous intolerance to racism lol

[devonin]

Re: fuck Georgia

once again, men and women want this in equal amounts. it's a women's issue but not a men's vs women's issue. thanks for ya time

It has been a known and well understood thing for decades that people in an oppressed class will vote for their own oppression in the generally mistaken assumption that by proving themselves "one of the good ones" that the group oppressing them will make an exception for them. It is also a known and well understood thing that misogyny like homophobia is often internalized as a result of one's upbringing and even people who are voting directly against their own best interest can convince themselves of the rightness of their position even while it causes them direct harm.

The same percentage of men and women appear to support banning abortion according to Funny's poll results there. How many of those women do you think are currently married to those men? I would put money down that it is at least half of them, probably more.

Poor people frequently elect leaders whose policies directly harm poor people.

This is not new, or especially compelling as some kind of argument.

Siding with sun fan here in that I don't think a typical pro-lifer lays down in bed at the end of the day and thinks "Hmm... what are some ways I can actively subjugate women tomorrow?"

No, they don't actively think that because they don't need to actively think that. Their entire belief system is built around it, so it happens as a consequence of their beliefs, and doesn't need to be consciously considered. This makes it worse not better.

, I think yes, there is a link between the reasons why people oppose abortion and their faith.

Yes, it is that their faith is inherently oppressive to women.

wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.

We've got to pay close attention to certain types of sensitive subjects, but as long as people are staying relatively civil, and engaging in good faith, there's no reason to lock the thread.

I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.

I mean...when you look at the history of male-led sources of authority going back 2000 years, 'subjugating women' has basically been their primary goal all along. It -is- the simpler explanation.

Men in power want to keep power. Empowering women creates a whole new subset of people in competition with them. I mean...you've got people passing as intellectuals with huge followings of almost entirely men saying things like, the biggest damage done to our entire modern society was the creation of birth control, because it gave women control over their own reproduction, allowing them to take that control away from men.