On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

[Hakulyte]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

The question is why the historic value of these files is higher than the judging value from getting them in-game. It's creating unnecessary ambiguity and goes against the idea of getting quality files in-game. It's just a huge slap in the simfiles judge team. It's not only CP but also Revo, RATO, For FFR, SoSSG etc. etc. There's a reason why they don't accept 500 bpm 16th jacks or 800 bpm 16th one hand trills or completely off-sync songs. There's conditions that need to be met and these files are clearly not meeting them.

As for DS etc. , you could just add code in-game where if you hit a 0-framer it triggers a miss. (Unless that's possible to do while vibrating)

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

To elaborate further with an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-01Tmnayts

Skip to 1:27 in that video. He starts the 64th wall with half a lifebar. He gains some life, but then at 1:30 notice how he dips. Vibrating at very high speeds, especially if it's note a single-column jackhammer, cannot be controlled very well.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

You can change positions to improve how you control one handed trills as well as changing key setups etc. but vibrating is a one-directional jackhammer motion.

Wristjacking is also a controlled motion because it's at a speed where you can try changing your hand positioning. But vibrating is too fast. The higher the speed, the more control is lost and it's exponential.

The point that I was eluding alluding to personally is similar but not quite the same as this: one-handed trilling is an even motion (one finger/other finger/one finger/other finger) that can be done very consistently -- players have differing striking points, pressures, and heights (above the keys before striking), but in the end, each player does their motion the same way for a given speed. If the speed goes up, the motion is modified slightly (differing hand placement/pressure) but is still executed the same by string with one finger, than the other, and whatnot.

Vibrating is simply a release of tension; the recoil from a key strike will change a number of times, and the location/pressure of the strike will vary wildly. I also say this with some vibrating capability, as my right hand can vibrate around 190-200 BPM.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

To elaborate further with an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-01Tmnayts

Skip to 1:27 in that video. He starts the 64th wall with half a lifebar. He gains some life, but then at 1:30 notice how he dips. Vibrating at very high speeds, especially if it's note a single-column jackhammer, cannot be controlled very well.

I still don't get the "cannot be controlled very well" argument. If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to do the whole wall ? I mean, the equation is like this: Perfectly responsive keyboard + vibrating skills - Lack of control = Score, and you're basically saying that "lack of control" can't be improved, like setting a limit to everybody because it hasn't been done yet. If you proove me that the human body isn't capable of such a thing in any way, then I'll accept your argument. But until that, you can always get better control.

[yo man im awesome]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

I still don't get the "cannot be controlled very well" argument. If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to to the whole wall ? I mean, the equation is like this: Perfectly responsive keyboard + vibrating skills - Lack of control = Score, and you're basically saying that "lack of control" can't be improved, like setting a limit to everybody because it hasn't been done yet. If you proove me that the human body isn't capable of such a thing in any way, then I'll accept your argument. But until that, you can always get better control.

"sky is the limit" attitude is nice, bro, but come on.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

What Halogen said is also right, vibrating at high speeds has varying pressures on the keys. For slower jacks you can tap harder and near the center of the key frequently since it's at a manageable speed. However with fast vibrating speeds the location the key is hit can't be controlled properly and you may not even tap hard enough for the hits to register (this and hands locking up explain the missdips you see in vibrating videos).

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

"sky is the limit" attitude is nice, bro, but come on.

Well, yes. Srsly. The Others 95% or something is that high if you compare it to Vertex Beta AAA which was prolly top tier years ago.

PS: It's only my way of thinking; if you dont proove me clearly that I can't achieve something, I'll still aim for it.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

If he can control it for a majority of that wall, why wouldnt it be possible to do the whole wall ?

That's not how probability works. It's like saying that because I AAA'd every DP isolation file I should have gotten an AAA on it easily and ages ago when I got 8-0-0-1.

Flip a fair coin 20 times in a row. From what you worded, it's like you are proposing that if you can get heads 15 times in a row, you can get heads 20 times in a row. Yes, it is possible to "improve how many heads you get", but there are 2^20 = 1048576 possible outcomes and it's not going to be consistent.

[devonin]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

The point that I was eluding to personally is similar but not quite the same as this: one-handed trilling is an even motion (one finger/other finger/one finger/other finger) that can be done very consistently -- players have differing striking points, pressures, and heights (above the keys before striking), but in the end, each player does their motion the same way for a given speed. If the speed goes up, the motion is modified slightly (differing hand placement/pressure) but is still executed the same by string with one finger, than the other, and whatnot.

Vibrating is simply a release of tension; the recoil from a key strike will change a number of times, and the location/pressure of the strike will vary wildly. I also say this with some vibrating capability, as my right hand can vibrate around 190-200 BPM.

Alluding <_<

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

That's not how probability works. It's like saying that because I AAA'd every DP isolation file I should have gotten an AAA on it easily and ages ago when I got 8-0-0-1.

Flip a fair coin 20 times in a row. From what you worded, it's like you are proposing that if you can get heads 15 times in a row, you can get heads 20 times in a row. Yes, it is possible to "improve how many heads you get", but there are 2^20 = 1048576 possible outcomes and it's not going to be consistent.

Huh... Wat. ok lemme use an example as bad: why do you not fail to AAA excite bike once every 2 runs ? Because it's skills not luck lmao, you got enough control to be consistent on it. You are one of the people in this game who believes way too much in luck to get scores srsly. Unless we're talking about half-responsive keyboard or laggy comp, the luck involved in this game is small.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Alluding <_<

how the fuck

thanks, jesus christ

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Take a look at your "the sky is the limit" argument this way:

You are shown two cards: a king and an ace. Remembering the position of those two cards is easy (this is like the excite bike example you're giving: the file is easy, an AAA takes basically no effort).

Now double that number. Four different cards this time. You need to remember which cards are where. The difficulty increases.

Double it again. Eight cards. Keep doubling the number. The difficulty of remembering increases exponentially very quickly. You could very well have remembered all eight, but there may be inconsistency at this point (remembering 7 out of 8, etc.)

Now apply the "four (2^2) was top tier a year ago" kind of logic and keep repeating it, incrementing the number each time. That's basically vibrating from a different standpoint. Reaching 180 BPM 16ths is pretty hard, reaching 190 is also hard, getting to 200 is very hard, and after that it basically becomes a crapshoot when trying to improve.

[Dynam0]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Lots of people over-complicating this for no reason whatsoever..

The vibrating control isn't the issue, it's the maxspeed in order to execute CP's trill. Vibrating control is 100% achievable with practice and even without control, if you have the speed to do the trill all you need is a lucky run; however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people. It's this reason which justifies having it as a token file imo. "Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent. It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks.

It's like having TWWW in public ranks. There are skills to mastering files like that but they are marginal ones.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people

Difficulty increases exponentially as you get to that kind of speed as well as inconsistency. The point still stands.



When you get above 200 BPM 16ths for vibrating, it looks something like this if you tried implementing a function for it. The increase in speed gets smaller and smaller and the best recorded speed in 10 seconds is 160 (240 BPM 16ths). At that point, improving speed becomes marginally small that the increase almost looks like zero. You need to consider inconsistency at such a high speed because a person can do 17 or 18 taps per second but have gaps from going at such a high uncontrollable speed.

[Dynam0]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

So the inconsistency is brought about by the raw speed of the trill?? I don't understand how control is the main issue here. Regardless, vibration in general is considered as much of a skill as memorizing bpm gimmicks/visual gimmicks to the vast majority of users.