DP/RATO move to tokens?

[Jerry DB]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

It seems like the new philosophy anyways is to make these kind of files into tokens and I definitely agree. There is still a ton of discrepancy among skill levels when it comes to songs level 95 and under so I don't see why we need to push the limits beyond what is comfortable. The pressure to play those ridiculous songs can lead to hand injuries as well. If they were tokens people could still try them out, but there wouldn't be a ridiculous sense to whore them or improve your rank which really could be harmful to your hands. With the nature of these songs it is best to just try them every now and then to see how you do on them, not to constantly play them over and over again because you keep getting only 1 miss or whatever the situation is.

[Doug31]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

Token chain:
Pass revo to unlock DP
Pass DP to Unlock RATO
Pass RATO to unlock CP

:]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

You know the problem with this? Revo v2 is already unlocked by passing Revo.

[ilikexd]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

It seems like the new philosophy anyways is to make these kind of files into tokens and I definitely agree. There is still a ton of discrepancy among skill levels when it comes to songs level 95 and under so I don't see why we need to push the limits beyond what is comfortable. The pressure to play those ridiculous songs can lead to hand injuries as well. If they were tokens people could still try them out, but there wouldn't be a ridiculous sense to whore them or improve your rank which really could be harmful to your hands. With the nature of these songs it is best to just try them every now and then to see how you do on them, not to constantly play them over and over again because you keep getting only 1 miss or whatever the situation is.

Pushing the limit beyond what is comfortable is the essence of improving... in anything.

You can sustain injuries at song levels much below 95. It doesn't matter how hard something is. Your body usually gives warning signs before a repetitive stress injury, and if you heed them and take breaks when necessary, you can avoid injury. This has little to do with certain difficulty. I got minor tendinitis from playing nonstop when I was only playing files around difficulty 75. I could've avoided it, and there were signs, but I didn't.

I don't think this is a good argument and I don't much like the idea of the token ranks as being some sort of trash can to shove away all "those files nobody wants to have to play".

[Doug31]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

I've been thinking and decided that it depends what level ranks are supposed to measure. If it's how good a player is, we need harder songs in it since goodness at harder songs is part of how good a player is. And eventually players could be good enough to AAA everything in regular level ranks, and the requirements to get in the highest division could be to AAA the entire public level rank and then have some good scores on token level ranks since some people that AAA'd everything public might still not be good enough. Could someone please tell me what exactly it is that average rank is supposed to measure?

[Fission]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

average rank refers to your rank on the song leader boards.

an average rank of 1 would mean that you have rank 1 on every public file; not necessarily all AAAs, though.

[Jerry DB]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

Pushing the limit beyond what is comfortable is the essence of improving... in anything.

You can sustain injuries at song levels much below 95. It doesn't matter how hard something is. Your body usually gives warning signs before a repetitive stress injury, and if you heed them and take breaks when necessary, you can avoid injury. This has little to do with certain difficulty. I got minor tendinitis from playing nonstop when I was only playing files around difficulty 75. I could've avoided it, and there were signs, but I didn't.

I don't think this is a good argument and I don't much like the idea of the token ranks as being some sort of trash can to shove away all "those files nobody wants to have to play".

I completely understand what your saying and it is a very good point. It's just there is a clear human barrier that starts to arise as you reach level 95. I mean even dossar has to constantly shake his hands when playing these songs and you can see it puts a ton of stress on him. I love the idea of breaking barriers but there comes a point when there really is a limit. Not to say that it can't be pushed and someone great can't surpass them. When that day comes maybe it would make more sense but right now I don't see anybody moving their hands fast enough without acquiring injury. I mean when the limit appears to be ready for these kind of files sure, but right now it seems unnecessary. To say rsi injuries have little to do with difficulty is a pretty big exaggeration as well, you DEFINITELY have to be careful to make sure your form is right and you have to take breaks when your body tells you the higher in difficulty you go. I mean everybody is different so the standards aren't the same. I just think it makes more sense as a token, it's not like trashing them, they are still there and people can still gawk at the scores you get, but only like 2-3 people can even take these songs semi seriously. To make them public for the whole community to have to play to improve their rank, yet 99.9 percent of them are mashing it and probably hurting themselves, yea it should probably be a token. I am definitely not saying you can't push the limits though, it's just a logical thing to do.

[hi19hi19]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

Pass -easy classical file- to unlock Death Piano
Pass Death Piano to unlock RATO
Pass RATO to unlock Crowdpleaser

the ultimate troll token chain
"oh wow it's called Crowdpleaser it must be a great file"
finally gets there "really, moogy"

I'd be okay with leaving Death Piano public (it IS accurately stepped, just patterned terribly and unforgiving) but I'm all in favor of RATO and Crowdpleaser being moved.

[Dynam0]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

I completely understand what your saying and it is a very good point. It's just there is a clear human barrier that starts to arise as you reach level 95. I mean even dossar has to constantly shake his hands when playing these songs and you can see it puts a ton of stress on him.

Umm...there are people who have whored last winged unicorn on SM (no names lmfao EZE) which is basically the most 'stressful' parts of death piano for 6+ minutes with small breaks. You would never get an acute injury from playing a rhythm game unless you did something really odd...and it's already been mentioned that there are warning signs when you've played too hard/much. Not a convincing argument for this imo

Also my FC on CP was pure vibro btw, took a lot of tries tho

[popsicle_3000]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

I mean, I would kill for my September 2010 run of RATO to be recorded:

how far back can you submit to unrecorded scores?

RATO is accurately stepped.

play it at 0.5x and tell me you still feel the same way...


as for OP, move them.
and move CP as well... new token req to unlock CP, not too hard, and then it's another 'fun' chain.

edit: interesting, i'd have thought there'd be a bigger majority in the poll to move them

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

So I come back to find this thread and it exploded pretty fast!

DP and RATO have absolutely ridiculous score spreads and most certainly won't change anytime soon.

Right, and I don't support heavy mashing to get an FC on these files. They're so disproportionately harder to get good accuracy with an FC compared to the rest of the public songs that it's essentially an insult to the players who are putting in the effort to improve their public ranks. Moving to token ranks would be incentive to go for accuracy rather than mash hard.

Also I don't think anyone actually finds scoring on RATO or DP fun if they have to FC it. Those files have too many parts to screw up, especially at the end (fuckin' Death Piano 11-0-0-0)

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

I used to get hand cramps from 160 bpm 16ths, but mainly from trying to play on tiny arrow keys and with bad form. There can be physical hinderences at any level, but the harder the files get, the more likely physical pain or cramping will occur. FFR or SM may do to a player's wrist what pitching does to baseball player's arms. Some players are less prone to injury, either from physical differences or differences in playing form between players. I do beleive though that players like Rubix, Dossar, and Staiain (spelling?) are approaching the limits of human ability, and future improvements will not be much more gradual. I do not foresee needing more RATO difficult files in the future. There will be plenty of difficult enough files for the top players not to have them all AAA'd, especially after a couple of tournaments with the new D7. Moving DP and RATO will still leave plenty of competitive room without a hundred good spread between the top few players, who still have to mash for combo.

Raw scoring isn't happening, so lets move these files.

[redsea]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

Honestly this might be a good idea; they are both ridiculous files. I couldn't imagine a new player getting five seconds into them

I think you should make them hard to unlock for this reason.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

I think you should make them hard to unlock for this reason.

Thanks for bringing this up too. Metro is a hard unlock to begin with because it's to make sure the player is going to be able to play through the unlocked file without mashing a lot of it. DP and RATO could be the same way.

[Reincarnate]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

My BS scores on DP aside (keeping in mind that my best score actually was pretty damn good, like 4-7g or something, can't recall):

I think RATO should definitely be moved, but it's probably okay to keep DP in the public files.

DP, despite its trickiness, is only marginally harder than the next-lower rung of "hardest" stepcharts. There are a couple sections that totally suck, but they're still well within the bell curve when it comes to reasonable expectations of skill progression. I really do believe that the scores on this file would level out a bit if more people took it seriously. I think many just avoid it because, well, it's hard. And some people don't find that level of challenge very fun/comfortable.

Now, RATO, on the other hand, is a glutfuck of epic proportions. To do well on that file requires stupid levels of stamina, control, and speed. I haven't looked at the current rankings on that file and I'm still too lazy to do so, but I imagine the score spreads are retarded. Move that sucker over because it's just going to be a perpetual outlier fucking up everyone's levelranks, which makes the data less meaningful.

[mi40]

Re: DP/RATO move to tokens?

sometimes i sleep at night tossing & turning wondering why i can't fc rato with decent pa

but then i realize i'm not dossar and i fall back to sleep, blissful and innocent