the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

[Patashu]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

My opinion in brief is that if you want to learn to be musical, the obvious best way is to structuredly practice that instrument and its theory.

BUT

We are human beings, evolved with the psychology and physiology of yesteryear not today's relatively struggle free environment Some of us have always wanted to devote themselves to and practice X - we call this 'talent', but the connotation of being naturally good at it is wrong - a better connotation is 'naturally inclined to practice'. Certainly anyone can become good at any trade, but the less natural practice inclination they have for it the more activation energy is required. So, it is very useful to have trade substitutes or practice substitutes, that grow a similar skillset and are more motivating for you to practice at.

While I'd be a better musician right now if in high school I picked up playing an instrument and composing instead of Stepmania, that was never going to happen. I gave up on piano as soon as the second hand came in and never learned chords. I couldn't grok making midis, there wasn't any instrument that inspired me to get good, drums demanded too much co-ordination between all the limbs that I couldn't play anything that interested me.

I don't know what originally appealed to me about Stepmania. I do remember how I got into it was a very new friend showing up on AIM with arch0wl's quasar and reality videos - I was immediately hooked by the idea. Maybe it was the idea of how impressively visually and audially overloading it was, maybe it was the idea that anyone could get good at it, I don't know, but it was my big 'thing' to do for many years. In the process I've been exposed to thousands of thousands of songs, stepped hundreds and hundreds analytically and critically, gained hand eye co-ordination, finger-finger co-ordination and rudimentary hand-hand co-ordination. I think honestly the most useful skill it's given me for what I want to get into is such a large body of mentally stored music that I've thought hard about that I can think about tunes and build them via inspiration rather than needing to go to a book and construct them - when I first opened Famitracker I figured out some rudimentary melodies and rhythms without needing to study for hours first. If all of this had not lowered the activation energy of composition enough for that, plus the low activation energy required to compose in Famitracker, I would still be an unmusical bum.

[SKG_Scintill]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

The last two posts make me question that I am a human being

[Patashu]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

The last two posts make me question that I am a human being

Can you elaborate?

[dAnceguy117]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

You basically nailed it all.

Though to be fair, I find more enjoyment in making the notecharts than comparing scores with people at this point. The whole "artistic" side of it is what brings me most pleasure. And you're absolutely right; no two people would step a file the same, much like painting on a canvas (although it's a little more likely to be similar).

100% agreed

great thread, moches. I read 1/2 of your essay and 1/3 of the long responses. this topic should make (and has already made) for an excellent discussion.

[Netjet!]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Wow, you made a very well-developed and structured essay, good work. I never really realized how much Stepmania/rhythm games correlated to music theory and everything else you mentioned... it really makes you think.

Is there really validity to the comparison between Stepmania and real musicians/real music? What do you guys think?

Absolutely. I've been playing FFR and Stepmania on and off for about five years, and it has certainly helped to develop my skills musically. I started playing the drums a few years ago, and rhythm games such as FFR/SM helped me realize how you have to learn to flow with the music, and find ways to incorporate your own personal touch into it, not unlike the artists' canvas like you referenced.

This is especially relevant with percussion instruments, because things like speed, rhythm and tempo, and different accenting and drum/cymbal usage (for the kit) are essential in order to make a dynamic and creative piece of music.

[Dynam0]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Some really great posts from everyone.

Just going to make an assumption that I hadn't really thought of until now. I've noticed that this community is composed of individuals who have a passion for music and also most posters can formulate some critical discussion pieces like this. Whether the average lay-person likes it or not, having a detailed discussion on the intricacies of anime for example is a great learning experience and promotes critical thinking.

I've got to say most members in this forum are quite talented/intellectual people! I think it has to do with the fact that we aren't hindered by public scrutiny from our peers for instance and expression of opinion is a safe activity in this environment. Communicating in a forum setting is a great way to improve literacy and communication among many other things.

But back to the main point, I do feel that stepmania/rhythm games closely relate to music. I'm a real mathematical person and rhythm/meters/patterns are something I have a lot of interest in. The creative way that step artists capture a song and the way that the stepchart agrees with how I myself perceive the focal points of the composition, give me the profound feeling of actually playing the song. I relate this with dancing for instance, since you are expressing music in a kinesthetic nature.

Obviously performing the song on actual instruments is a totally different process, but the set of skills required to follow the music in unique way are valuable ones that are totally unique to rhythm games. I love them!! <3

[Sakish]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Very interesting thread moches, and very interesting posts everyone made so far.

I'll just leave a note on how I see/deal with things.

I am a teacher, the kids ask me on a weekly basis "what are you doing home, what games do you play?"
I tell them straight out, that I play a music video game or rather a rythm game (7year olds dont get this so it doesnt matter)
My family never really bothered with it though, sure they might think that its wierd that i play it, or that it's useless but they never gave me shit for it.

As for the StepMania-Music relation, I feel that there is a huge connection.
Much like Dynamo/Patashu said about it, there definately exists one. It literally opened one hell of a path into other music genres, widened my mind into some sort of a highway up onto so much music.
The connection between StepMania and instruments, as someone said. It takes skill to perform a concert with any given instrument, and it takes skill in performing any given song on stepmania. In my opinion, the "unproductive" way is very subjective, you could be unproductive whilst playinig any other game but only if other persons think that way and really.. Most of us (if not all) here know that if someone judges you from what game you play, then they are the ones with a problem, not you.

Might make 0 sense but at least i gave my 5 cents (lolrhyme)

[swordmasterz]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Nice post moches. I feel like this is a lingering issue in a lot of people's minds on this site.
I could write a lot about this as some have, but I would rather try to condense it:

Many things I'm writing have already been posted.

Common elements:
- Motivates an interest in music

- Can broaden a person's musical palette

- Requires practice to better oneself (playing and composing/charting)

- Emphasis on rhythms, patterns, even creativity

- Charting can help a bit with music notation (maybe?). On the other hand, calling something a 12th note is probably going to earn you some blank stares or a slap in the face.

- Certain games carry over skills that apply to real instrumentation. This varies from game to game though; it's been noted drums on GH/RB are pretty helpful to learn drums, but guitar/bass isn't nearly as good a representation. Likewise playing ITG probably isn't going to help your dancing form (maybe your stamina tho !!)

- Charts can be 'expressive' if a stepartist tries. Charts can also challenge 'virtuoso' elements from player/ (sup Stai, RG, Sakish, etc.); compositions are also expressive, and many pieces are ornamented/composed with the purpose of virtuoso performance in mind.

- Helps mental acquity(?) (hmm maybe I need to source this... lol)


Uncommon elements:
- Stepmania lacks the degree of tonality/pitch focus that music composition and playing instruments do. You can try to argue that pitch relevancy is used quite often in SM but the tones are shared between columns all the time and require consistent rollover. A4 might equal A3 in stepmania, but no way that's gonna get by in real music practices.

- Expression is left to the 'composer'/charter in stepmania; players have limited expressive abilities when actually playing the charts. Still contendable to some degree though, especially some neat freestyle done on DDR/ITG (o:

- Stepmania and many other rhythm games tend to layer a bunch of instruments/sounds together. So when a file is played it flows much more like a one-man orchestra than a single instrument, but it probably doesn't really feel like being a concertmaster (well, I wouldn't really know though now would I)

- Tapping keys is far less attractive to hear than playing an instrument (of course, there are some exceptions.. hue)

So yeah, I think that Stepmania (and other rhythm games) has some musical validity.

---

In terms of just being "a game", I think plenty of us have been there and heard that phrase used before. And I'm pretty sure many of us regretted playing a game when we 'weren't supposed to at some point in our lives. Although not everyone agrees (especially all dem opportunity cost *****s out there), I like Russell's statement:

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."

[inDheart]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

- Charting can help a bit with music notation (maybe?). On the other hand, calling something a 12th note is probably going to earn you some blank stares or a slap in the face.

- Helps mental acquity(?) (hmm maybe I need to source this... lol)

actually, music notation might help with charting more. imagine never having seen a piece of sheet music, but trying to use it as a reference to step a piano song - it's a whole new set of symbols to learn. but the principles carry over.

i think the word you're looking for is "acuity"

[Cavernio]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

I'm a casual player of ffr, so I learned alot about stepfiles from reading what you put. I agree with all your arguments except this one:

"Miriam: …hmm. Just one question: how do players express themselves through the music? Aren’t they just going for the highest score possible, what the stepartist desires and sees as “ideal”?

Moses: You’re confusing want with need: the player doesn’t need to conform to the standards. Both the artist and player interact with the song, the artist by stepping it, and the player by putting his own spin on the chart. You can see this in games like DanceDanceRevolution, where some players prefer to play freestyle, only using the stepchart as a sort of guide to what in the music to follow while including their own dance moves in the blank space. Music isn’t a one-way path but a constant back-and-forth, and everybody who plays rhythm games has a unique take on it."

Talking about how DDR applies individual players 'art' is valid if we're talking about DDR. You're not. The last sentence of your paragraph doesn't really make a point pertaining to playing a rhythm game, but of one of listening to music or stepping a file. You say that a player can put their own 'spin to a [stepmania] chart', but don't say how. Do people actually do that when playing a rhythm game using their fingers? The fact that it's a game where there's only 1 way to get points really does railroad players into getting the song 'just right'. There is absolutely no incentivizing creative play, again, outside of creating your own stepfile. FFR for isntance, won't even let you continue playing if you mess up too badly. Seems like the only way for someone to become creative in this process is by either creating the chart or the music.
I think you're better off as passing off stepmania as a more of an 'active listening experience' than a creative one. My view is that it doesn't matter if playing it is creative. However, to anyone who actually steps files, playing the game will give you ideas to either follow or purposefully not follow, lets you know how difficult things are, and is a necessary part of stepmania for anyone who takes the route into creating stepfiles.

I agree with what everyone else says about games in general. Productivity isn't the end all be all. I'm surprised you don't really get into that debate in your essay. You've dressed up stepmania as something that revolves around music. Which is true of course, but I do think that there's an over-arching idea of the uselessness of games that could be addressed, as it still very much applies to the playing of stepmania.

[Cavernio]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Also it's long past time someone with fMRI access uses an FFR/stepmania interface to learn what we can about things like sightreading, rhythm perception, and learning in the brain. It's the perfect 'musical instrument' to use in a magnet.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

I want to comment on this but typing excessively long posts on my phone sucks Dick

[Dynam0]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

Also it's long past time someone with fMRI access uses an FFR/stepmania interface to learn what we can about things like sightreading, rhythm perception, and learning in the brain. It's the perfect 'musical instrument' to use in a magnet.

I've been curious about this as well. What kind of processes occur in the brain while playing something for the first time as opposed to the 50th time for instance. Lots of neat stuff especially in pattern recognition and reaction time in that field

[retching oesophagus]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

I think I disagree with virtually all of that post Cavernio.

In the game of FFR the stepchart will scroll down for you (or whichever way you selected in the options menu) and present the arrows for you to hit, but then YOU have to hit them in order to tap along to the song. You are the one creating the taps. So there is some element of creativity, although I think there is a stronger expressive element because rather than 'actively listening' to the songs in FFR I feel as if I'm actually playing them. Almost like sight reading to sheet music on an instrument.

Although there is only one stepfile per song and the intention is to tap out the predetermined rhythm for highest possible score, there is more than one way to hit this rhythm. People use different set-ups or make their own for example, such as one handed, index, pettanko and so on. You can hit hard or soft or with different hand formations and techniques. The timing window in the game allows for a bit of leniency and more ways to get past files. A player can sacrifice a bit of accuracy so they can hit certain patterns more easily and still get perfects, for example by jumping trills or jump trilling rolls. So there is more than one way to get the maximum on a a score. People actually study files in order to find new ways to simplify or interpret them, in order to increase their score. You can either hit early or late in the perfect window depending on how you feel, and still get a perfect, or aim to get average the whole way through. There is room for multiple interpretations and players will often have different ways of approaching the same file to each other.

When you say that the game absolutely does not incentivise creativity I find that also wrong. To get the highest scores on the hardest files you often do have to be creative and often the best players are the most creative. The best example I can think of was in the race to AAA Crowdpleaser quite a few years ago. You had to somehow combo the 64th note trill and not lose your PA, which seemed like an impossible task back then. I'm not sure how it was done first time round but people came up with quite a few inventive ways of PAing the trill by using double set-up, by vibrating and by jump trilling with both hands on the same set of keys. There was constant one upping and rivalry before someone managed it and that person was rewarded with being the first to AAA.

[Emanresu13]

Re: the philosophy of Stepmania/rhythm games

i'd say the most obvious sign of creativity in a player is anti-skill