Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

[Minati]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Dear ddrxero64,

It is very entertaining to see you make an attempt at "tearing this thread apart", but in reality, all you've done is just pore over my posts and you have contributed absolutely nothing to the "critical thinking" section of this forum.

As a matter of fact, it just seems like you're riding DossarLX ODI's dick for all he's worth, and that's totally fine by me.

After all, you do seem like a stuck up teenager who thinks his shit smells sweeter than most. But that's fine by me, since I know you don't pursue law like I do, and you've probably never taken part in a serious debate either.

Let's take a look at this..

"There are rappers who have none of those qualities, and yet they're out living their dream. By the way, stereotypes aren't true, or they wouldn't be called stereotypes, they would be called a fact."

Just this part of your post alone indicates that you have a flawed way of thinking. Stereotypes as a matter of fact came about because they are true for the most part. For example, do Asians tend to have smaller and slitty eyes? Yes, because that is indeed true for the most part. Do white people tend to be the "disgusting pigs" as the extremist Chinese describe Westerners to be? Not really, but America definitely courts some of the most obese people in the world. Do chinese people tend to be the "model minority" in America? For the most part, yes - that is why people like Amy Chua exist today.

Also, your example of a rapper living out their dreams... is just pathetic. These jobs you speak of (rappers, celebrities, etc) are jobs that are not applicable to everyone and thus because the Chinese mothers realize that the average son and daughter has a very slim to zero chance of holding an occupation of the sort, they push their children towards more stable jobs and professions, such as the stereotypical doctor or the lawyer.

And let's look at this:

"Please, entertain me with one statistic from a credible source that claims 99.9% of teenagers are worse off having their parents leaving them alone."

I would love to see how you deal with people. When I mention "99.9% of teenagers", do you take that as a literal statistic? Or are you so mentally retarded that you don't get why the number "99.9" was used in that sentence? It's called exaggeration - it's used to make a point. I don't know about you, but a lot of the people I know sure can't come up with exact statistics without in-depth research - we're not robots and supercomputers. And the fact that you take my words so literally makes you seem like a rather shallow person who has no real content to back shit up. Your style of analytics and "debating" if one called "bullshit." There maybe a point here and there, but in between, there is a whole lot of bull. If you can't come up with legitimate reasons that can prove teenagers are better off without their parents guiding them and telling them what to do, be my guest! I'm sure you can argue against the entire world on that. So good luck!

You sir, seem like a 17 year old teenager who has big dreams and big aspirations, but really - your shit doesn't smell sweeter than most of us here. Remember that, or else you'll get bitten in the ass big time later on.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Just because something is offensive doesn't make it untrue. It really bothers me when people say "But this isn't true for EVERYONE etc" before rattling off some random anecdote that shows a contrary-to-average case -- no shit. When a generalization is made, it's usually helpful to speak in terms of average and deviation. That is to say, maybe group A has a lower average of metric X than group B does, but perhaps with a much greater variance.

[Minati]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Just because something is offensive doesn't make it untrue. It really bothers me when people say "But this isn't true for EVERYONE etc" before rattling off some random anecdote that shows a contrary-to-average case -- no shit. When a generalization is made, it's usually helpful to speak in terms of average and deviation. That is to say, maybe group A has a lower average of metric X than group B does, but perhaps with a much greater variance.

Precisely... stereotypes do exist for a reason. They don't apply to everyone and they aren't very pleasant most of the time either.. but they do exist for a reason.

[justaguy]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Here's an interesting article that I thought I'd like to share, from the Wall Street Journal

Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

What do you all think?
Is this a good way of parenting?
What are your own personal experiences with your parents?
I think I might contribute my own little anecdotes later, since I'm Asian (though Japanese, not Chinese), but I want to see what people have to say about this.

also quoting what rubix said to save myself the trouble of conveying my own sentiments

I have a really hard time believing that this article is serious. It appears to be an obvious sort of generalized concept blown up into an extreme variant in order to generate controversy and buzz. Then again, maybe it's not -- the fact that she's an Asian professor at Yale married to a Jewish white professor at Harvard gives enough credence to high-percentile confirmation bias such that these extreme views feel almost like necessary conditions within her socioeconomic echelons.

[dag12]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

With regards to the article, I think it's a big publicity stunt to garner interest about her new book from which this article was taken.
I would imagine that someone as well-educated as a Yale professor would have a more nuanced and balanced opinion, so the inflammatory article (so extreme it almost reads like a satire) is a clever way to enrage people to buy her book, haha.

[ddrxero64]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Thanks for the letter Minati.

First, just let me say I've never talked to DossarLX, but I have heard of him. The fact that he doesn't use generalizations to make something seem 100% true is enough for me to agree with him for the most part. You, on the other hand, are still defending an article which still has no effective argument, and is based merely on a story here and there.

Law isn't a pursuit of mine, though business is. I am a student in college, and I do study business tactics and also try to get a little psychology done to learn how people like you try to argue, and why they say things to convey certain ideas that aren't remotely true.

Your comment on stereotypes is almost decent, except for the fact that none of the stereotypes you mentioned are even discussed nowadays. Asians having slitty eyes is a factual characteristic of the race, unless of course they are a mixed race, in which case it is questionable. And the white people who are pigs is a new stereotype that I've never heard of, probably made by you in a careless attempt to prove your point. As a matter of fact, white people and America are not the same term, so look that over. There are plenty of countries in Europe that are full of white people.

While I do admit a rapper was a poor example, I still have yet to hear an explanation on how playing classical instruments and avoiding an extracurricular activity will raise the chances of becoming a stereotypical doctor or lawyer.

Also, the 99.9% comment I made was sarcastic. Your defense on your sarcasm only led to your inability to see mine. It's obvious that no such statistic exists, and I only pointed out the flaw in your argument. Using words like "entertain" is a hint enough that I didn't take it seriously. You claim you were being sarcastic, and I could see that, but for you to miss my sarcasm (which was a bit more obvious) is very ironic.

If you wish to see how I deal with people, than ask the people who talk to me. You'll most likely get a mixed reaction, but I can guess which responses you'll get the most. Of course, if you decide to do this, try to lessen the bias you are used to, such as appealing to the bigger crowd, only asking people you prefer to talk to, etc.

I do have big aspirations and big dreams, though I'm a bit passed those teenage years. At least you are able to see that. Your choice of debate isn't one to be used by a lawyer though, and I can't imagine a respected lawyer using your style of argument in a court room. You might want to work on that if you want to succeed in the field of law.

Last time I checked, my shit smells horrible. Nice try at some sort of comeback though, it was very original.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

If you aren't using generalizations, you aren't really saying anything useful.

Generalizations are useful if you want to identify areas to actually SOLVE and DISCUSS problems. Otherwise you're just sweeping blatant truths under the rug and hoping they manage themselves.

I am too lazy to get into the retarded argument you two are having, but I will interject that plenty of people try to get their kids involved in things like music and sports and other extracurricular activities because it teaches discipline, hard work, talent, and mental acuity. That sort of mindset ultimately spills over into almost every other facet of life.

[ddrxero64]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

I can see where this debate will end up. So I will stop now.

Say what you want, I guess I will finish replying. Too much hypocrisy and contradiction for me to even bother arguing. In the end, none of this will have affected my life or anyone's life here in my opinion (at least I hope so), so I don't really take much of it to heart. Thanks for the legitimate debate though, I did get to hone my skills in effective argument.

[HoneyMelonCalibrator]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

With regards to the article, I think it's a big publicity stunt to garner interest about her new book from which this article was taken.
I would imagine that someone as well-educated as a Yale professor would have a more nuanced and balanced opinion, so the inflammatory article (so extreme it almost reads like a satire) is a clever way to enrage people to buy her book, haha.

Yeah, I saw this story on the Today show this morning. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if what you said, with regards to this all being one big publicity stunt was true.

Also lol @ Sue.

[ScylaX]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

My post will not follow your arguing because it's off-topic, so :
The human being wasn't born to be subject to an absolute authority, it isn't made to be mechanic. "The end justifies the means" is a truncated thought, it's like thinking utopian dictatorship is beneficial because there's a high repression of crime (aka no crime!!!! (ps that's totally wrong)) and the society is really "steady". And I mean, come on, it's just like they forgot their child had feelings and was aware of itself.

The problem is in their logic. In the eyes of the society, of course, your "human value" doesn't worth anything because you're judged according to what you're able to do. But a human being HAS to be itself, and not the product of a strict-like-hell education. The human being needs its batch of "debauchery", it needs a life that is full of different colors, he needs to learn from its error and by itself, not by an ubiquitous control over him that makes him the puppet of external ideals, that's how the human being is, if the "wrong things" can't be removed, it's because we're plural, and not socially monists.

This artificial way of life is against our inherent "moral" laws because of how "squared" it is, the higher you're strict and represive, the wronger you get (of course it's not like I thought we needed no limit, but there's a goddamn fair media for each thing, for each person). Perfection is NOT human. Trying to reach it is pernicious and will lead to bad consequences over your psychology.

[XCV]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Yeah, I saw this story on the Today show this morning. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if what you said, with regards to this all being one big publicity stunt was true.

Also lol @ Sue.

This.

With regards to the thread:

[There has to be some sort of vocational hierarchy in this world. Suppose that everyone, literally everyone, raised their children in this fashion and expected them to be professors at Yale or something such. We'd get a utopian society, the concept of which was mentioned briefly in Brave New World. If the world was composed mostly of high-prestige jobs, then who'd wash their dishes? They certainly wouldn't. It's human nature to have an attitude such as that. The working poor may be an eyesore to higher society, but they do serve a useful function, and therefore merit sustenance. A minor point, but an important one nevertheless. Their parenting technique may produce generally more successful adults; however, the upper class that they subsequently join is filled with just as many Americans who made their way in the world by desire to work, among other things. To paraphrase Confucius, "Choose a job you enjoy, and you will never work a day in your life."]

There is little reason to be perfectionistic. The fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you're pushed, there will always be someone ahead of you, whether by natural talent or an inhuman work ethic (or both.) Having participated in quizbowl and variants for a full decade and counting, I can testify that although I have a talent for it, and though I love it and therefore work at it like a madman, I've (and by that I mean my team) been beaten dozens of times. The fact that most of them were Asians probably proves the point that I'm trying to contradict, but a fair amount of Americans have done it as well, including Americans that had far more resources than we do, and Americans that have fewer. Admittedly, my attitude toward life in general (there are exceptions) is basically that if I can't do a given task in a fairly short amount of time then trying to accomplish it is moot at the present time. This is because I believe knowledge, and skill in general, is based on subconscious pattern recognition and intuition. In short, practice does make perfect, but burnout does exist. I apply myself without exhausting myself, and it's worked for me.

In summary, there is no need to be perfectionistic. Being human is good enough for most employers, and social Darwinism will take it from there. Talent rises to the top.

Sheesh, I could write more, but I've been doing so for a couple hours at least.
I'll stop here.

[dag12]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

My post will not follow your arguing because it's off-topic, so :
The human being wasn't born to be subject to an absolute authority, it isn't made to be mechanic. "The end justifies the means" is a truncated thought, it's like thinking utopian dictatorship is beneficial because there's a high repression of crime (aka no crime!!!! (ps that's totally wrong)) and the society is really "steady". And I mean, come on, it's just like they forgot their child had feelings and was aware of itself.

The problem is in their logic. In the eyes of the society, of course, your "human value" doesn't worth anything because you're judged according to what you're able to do. But a human being HAS to be itself, and not the product of a strict-like-hell education. The human being needs its batch of "debauchery", it needs a life that is full of different colors, he needs to learn from its error and by itself, not by an ubiquitous control over him that makes him the puppet of external ideals, that's how the human being is, if the "wrong things" can't be removed, it's because we're plural, and not socially monists.

This artificial way of life is against our inherent "moral" laws because of how "squared" it is, the higher you're strict and represive, the wronger you get (of course it's not like I thought we needed no limit, but there's a goddamn fair media for each thing, for each person). Perfection is NOT human. Trying to reach it is pernicious and will lead to bad consequences over your psychology.

This is the most awkwardly phrased post that I have ever seen.
But anyway.

Personally, as an Asian, I find it extremely disturbing that this article seems to generalize all Asian parents to be this way. It certainly helps to perpetrate many of the stereotypes regarding Asians...

In response to the article:

http://www.jeanhsu.com/?p=229

Check this article out. I imagine it would be received more warmly.

[ichliebekase]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Yea, I'll admit I didn't read this entire thread. But this is all I want to address.

Actually, it's not a "personal attack", but rather an attack on the entirety of this community in general.. You'll find that people who excel in such things mentioned by Amy Chua (ex. violin, piano, academics) will most likely NEVER spend time on such trivial things such as Stepmania, FFR, or video games in general. Of course, "video games" could be replaced with getting wasted on a Tuesday afternoon, ignoring schoolwork, and much more.

You ma'am obviously know nothing. I excelled in viola for almost 10 years and I play video games. I wasn't brought up by an "Amy Chua" Asian mom.

I also happen to know at least 2 others who are the same as me, one plays violin much better than any person I've ever known and a guy who plays viola and him and I have competed for years. None of us had the "Amy Chua" Asian mom.

I also know of a few others on this site who play musical instruments with massive amounts of skill [Jtehanonymous to be the first to come to mind]. And guess what. We all play FFR and have played this game for many years. Does that mean we're all wasting our lives even though we all still excel in music and are leading well-rounded lives?

You should really watch what you say because you are also one of those kids that plays this game and you're a lot better than the average FFR player...

First generation immigrants want the best for their children, as do all parents, but they really are not that qualified to judge what will lead to a successful and fulfilling life in the United States. Their narrow-minded formula for success (great grades, ivy league, medical school, high paying job) may work for some, but it alienates those who might find success elsewhere.

This is the main part I completely agree with. What if a child is a good dancer? What if the child has the golden voice? Also, who named people such as Amy Chua the mom-of-the-year and gave them the utmost right to say what is right and wrong? Every parent is going to raise their child to the way they want and there is nothing that anyone can say because it is their child and no one else's. I won't allow a single person tell me how to raise my child when he/she comes in July. I was raised one way, I will not raise my child the way I was raised.

[ScylaX]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

@dag21 Well, I can't help it, English isn't my mother tongue ;_; So making long and developed phrases like this is quite awkward in itself.

[dag12]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

@dag21 Well, I can't help it, English isn't my mother tongue ;_; So making long and developed phrases like this is quite awkward in itself.

Haha, well, at least I understood what you were trying to convey - which I can't say is necessarily the case for some people.