Economy Fix or Fail??

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Chuck, all of the actually good and cogent points aren't even coming from you. If anybody is going to "win" the debate in favour of marijuana legalization it's going to be korny. Your walls of text making spurious claims with no real evidence to back them up are barely contributing to Korny's excellent logic and compelling evidence.

in the 5000 years of its cultivation and its 3000 of being smoked, there has never been one case of a death due to marijuana or ne thing related to it.

This is the quality of claim you make. You have any evidence whatsoever that for FIVE THOUSAND years nobody has ever died due to marijuana or anything related to it? I'd love to see where you have 5000 years of evidence. Please provide that for us.

Meanwhile, Korny, more excellent stuff that actually gives me a lot to think about. Let's see.

The US is fighting against something that has proven to help those with serious illness

15 states have laws allowing medicinal use as prescribed by a doctor, and the federal government has given free reign to the states to draft their own legislation on the subject. Sounds to me like the US isn't exactly fighting -against- it. Elements of americans sure, but as a formal policy decision, it's up to the state, and 15 states have already said medicinal use is perfectly fine.

Belligerent nationalism? Oh god yes.

How is that nationalism, let alone belligerent nationalism? I don't se very much by way of explicit american propaganda declaiming marijuna users as un-american. Maybe back in the 60s and 70s where every drug user "hated the man" and all drugs "made you commies" but today?

I think that pretty much covers police state as well. Do you need to be biased to realize the realities of all this? I'd think not.

As I said earlier. If you think a law is unfair, you fight to get it changed. While it's still a law, it's still a law, and you have to accept the consequences of breaking the law. Since marijuana users are also the first to point out the highly non-addictive nature of cannibis, you can't even suggest that once they're hooked they can't help but smoke, so each time they light up they are making a free clear choice to break the law, even if they don't agree with it. So while that surely created hardship to have the breadwinner for the family go to prison, that's not the fault of the police for enforcing the law. It's the fault of the person choosing to break the law.

Hmm, I thank you for providing me with facts (because that is all you did) that I am already well aware of, but could you put these into a scenario for me where someone only has feelings of "regret" by it's usage?

If you can't look at a list of things like "increased heart rate, lowered blood pressure, and impairment of psychomotor coordination, concentration, and short-term episodic and working memory" and think up a scenario wherein those things would be problematic, it sounds like you have a problem with your short-term and working memory.

Completely harmless, no, not completely harmless. Life threatening or truly dangerous? Definitely not.

You're using the old speeding ticket defense here. "But officer, shoudln't you be out catching murderers and rapists?"

I went to university in Windsor Ontario, which is directly across the river from Detroit. It is a very industrial city and there are a lot of foundries etc especially along the river on both sides.

They've done many studies on air quality there and found that by a HUGE lead, the industry all up and down the river contributes to the poor air quality, and the incidences of lung-based medical conditions etc.

A few years ago, they instituted a smoking ban in all public indoor areas, and there was a huge outcry along the lines of "There are far far worse pollutants effecting the city, it's ridiculous to piss off so many people to fix what is actually a minor problem in comparison" And while that might seem like a good argument to put more resources into forcing industry to stop polluting so much, it is not a good argument to remove the smoking ban.

If more people are murdered by guns each year than by knives, is it -bad- to take steps that eliminate all knife murders? More people die of cancer each year than die of say, ALS, but is it -bad- to put resources towards curing ALS?

It's not perfectly harmless, thus it is at least partially harmful, so the fact that there are other more harmful things doesn't necessarily prove that it is not harmful.

As to the actual meat of the statement, yes cigarettes are worse for you than pot. I would have no problem whatsoever with a global ban on cigarettes. Especially since what people are actually addicted to and what causes all the health problems is basically everything -but- the tobacco in them.

As for alcohol, the right kinds of alochol in the right proportions are actually -good- for you. The issues all stem from excessive consumption. I'll also point out that while you're perfectly allowed to drink excessively, you are -not- allowed to then go out in public, operate a vehicle or do anything else that endangers or even potentially endangers those around you.

Below is my stance on pot, since you guys seem to think I'm some sort of ignorant tool of THE MAN who thinks 'reefer madness' is real, despite the fact that I never actually stated one way or another what my personal view was, merely pointed out my issues with the claims regarding the incredible boon to the economy etc that this would be.

In your own home, or among friends, I really coudln't care less whether you smoke pot, drop acid, get pissed drunk or just play parcheesi. Every adult should have the right to do absolutely anything they want provided that everybody involved is consenting.

Private personal use of marijuana is perfectly fine by me. I know plenty of people who smoke pot, and I don't think less of them for it or anything.

If asked to vote on a decriminalization of marijuana I'd vote to support it. But my support would be solely on the grounds that consenting adults should have the freedom to do anything they want with other consenting adults. If asked to vote solely on economic grounds, I'd abstain on the grounds of insufficient research actually showing the costs involved in setting up the infrastructure versus actual income from its sale and tax etc.

I'd also vote to support it being illegal to drive under the influence of Pot, I'd vote to support laws forbidding its smoking in public spaces not dedicated solely to it (And such places would need to have the right kind of ventiliation to keep the smoke indoors) though I'd have no problem with places being allowed to be dedicated solely to it (By the same token that I support smoking bans for cigarettes, but am okay with the idea that a private club or bar could designate itself smoking-allowed)

[richhhhhard]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

"Can you not at least agree that just plain marijuana usage regardless of illegalities, are not by any means "fair"?"

I am really at a loss as to how that question makes sense korny.

"My question made perfect sense maybe you should read it again"

All I am saying is that I have read it numerous times and still can't make any sense out of it. Kinda makes me wonder about the validity of the rest of your arguments...

[krunkykai22]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Wow. Alot of reading just done on my part .

Ok, one, Korny, you my friend, are a genius! I agree with everything you say. One topic I wanted to jump in on would be that of driving under the influence of weed. For one if they even legalized marijuana it would be under the same stipulation of alchohol. Can not drive under it, be in public under it, etc. Thats pretty much a given.

Two, yes marijuana is an "indoor" grown plant, but not all the time. I'm not going to say how i know this but believe me, the best stuff I have endured came from being grown outside .

As for the 15 states that have legalized this matter for medical purposes, yes they have legalized it but correct me if I am wrong, but is it not true that the government is fighting them for it now?? I believe California and Oregon are going through federal court with the government because of there use of marijuana, in its MEDICAL USE!!

As for the economic part, it would be an amazing asset to the government to tax marijuana and make it legal. The only reason I would agree to make it legal, is to stop the selling of it to underage children. I've seen 11 year olds sitting outside there house smoking a fatty before school. ARE YOU KIDDING???? Even though legalizing it would not stop that, it could greatly drop the rate of it being sold at least. :/

Completely off topic here but, why in gods name would you fight with a profile/forum mod????? Are you seriously that retarded?? He was not named a mod for no reason. Shut up and quit telling him how to run his job.

Ok im done

edit: one more thing, it is not true that no one has died from marijuana usage. To overdoes on this drug is extremely hard, because you need to smoke your entire body weight for you to completely overdose. for one you can't afford that much and two that would just be stupid.

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Fighting against it's recreational use, legalizing for industrial use etc.

Anyway, while this is all perspective of course, this is the way I see it so take from it what you will. You have adults who have grown up in this country, and all they have known is marijuana to be illegal. The media has spread false propaganda to young adults and children about the dangers and repercussions of it's use ever since the 1930's. It is this sense of danger that has become imbibed in american culture and it is all we as a people have ever been shown to know. A prime example I'd like to point out is my friend who I recently got into this discussion about. While he is an extremely intelligent individual, what he so ignorantly pointed out, is that he has grown up having a marijuana illegal life so to speak, and that he sees no reason to change that. He doesn't care what I "think" I know about it, because he's never done it and was raised and taught to be against it whether it was his family, religion, media etc. All he knows from marijuana is what I have told him, which is pretty much everything. He doesn't smoke, he continues to think it is harmful even after repeatedly providing him with evidence that that is more than hardly the case, it is just a matter of pure ignorance. You can tell someone over and over again that something is ok, but if you have an entire society telling you differently, and it is how you were raised to understand it, and never partook of it to truly understand, then you're going to more than likely have a majority to believe it to be the case. Especially in this country, where we are taught to love it so proudly, we are more or less brainwashed with the ideals that go along with it and what I mean by that is simply; America says it's bad to smoke pot, I love my country, I'm not going to smoke pot. Do I really think there are people like this? Well, sort of yes. To such a literal degree? Perhaps not quite as many but it this sense of " belligerent nationalism" that exists in different levels. People fear that which they don't understand, and what makes it so much more difficult is that not only do they have this self-righteous sense of fear, but they have an annoying sense of ignorance that helps to conspire against it's legality if that makes sense. No I don't think everyone who is against marijuana is like that, but you have to think about well, what exactly is their reason against it, with all the evidence provided when you have the state of california operating just as it had before they had legalized it in 1996 as a prime example. You have of course stated you're feelings towards marijuana so this is by no means directed towards your personal views about it, more just me ranting to the ignorant people out there and relating to this sense of "belligerent nationalism" I was trying to get across to you. There are people who feel the need to take it upon themselves to be against marijuana because the "majority" of americans they know are against it without even knowing what they're "hating on". Put simply, those born in the 50's were raised in a time to naturally have a different view against other races because of the conflicts during the time they had grown up in. Whether they're racist or not, because they were raised in a different time, it has embedded in their minds a different perspective on the subject more so then it would people today. While marijuana has become more and more socially accepted, it is by no means to the point to where this ignorance has dissipated. It is very frustrating.



Sure, I honestly can't argue with you anymore there. It is illegal whether it should be or not. The only thing point I stand to make is that alcohol and tobacco are killing so many people worldwide, while marijuana is not killing any, and it is giving the police unfair leverage to exercise their authoritative power. Quite frankly, it's plain paradoxical.

Again, you point out facts about what marijuana usage can do to you, yet I fail to see how a scenario can be created in which one has feelings of regret. Do you mean to say he had a rare heart attack at his young age, and was caused by the extremely rare instance of which it is caused by marijuana? Or perhaps it was his loss in motor skills that caused him to wreck his car or fall down and trip and break his leg even though the car thing can pretty much be ruled out with the link to the car study I provided. No that's not it, perhaps he got so stoned that he forgot he had a test the next day he needed to study for and it was the cause of him to fail his entire class? And If he did indeed break or hurt himself while stoned, well, it's just like alcohol. Know your limits and be responsible about it. There are levels of high, that you can easily control. Even still, I highly doubt this was the cause of his so called regrettable experience. So while analyzing these possibilites, I still fail to see how his regrettable experience was caused by weed alone. Perhaps you can provide me with a better one, since my short term memory is working against me.

While your analogies towards the smoking ban and such are good points, once again you are pointing out the obvious and making no real point. We're talking about human lives and how they're being taken from already legal things as opposed to something that does not and is illegal. Alcohol in moderation is considered healthy in some regard of course, yet you have thousands and thousands of people continuing to abuse it and die every year. Cigarettes obviously holding absolutely no beneficial value whatsoever. No they are not allowed to go out in public and interact with society as if they were sober. A drunk persons ability to act reasonably in society however, compared to a person under the influence of marijuana are not only completely incomparable, but well kind of stupid. The effects both have on an individual are way too drastic to put into the same category because like erothyme has stated, and something I can say for myself, there is nothing I can't do better when I'm high. My best one handed scores in this game are always done when high, and this can be used as a great example. One handing takes great dexterity to do it as well as I can. I am perhaps one of the best one handers if not the best that has ever played the game, and one of my most controversial scores (Reach's reality AA) was done while being very stoned. Where is the real harm in 0 deaths? That is what I don't quite understand.

All in all even though the figures that I've given are all speculative and can only be generalized, I find it hard to believe that a person such as yourself who seems to be very intelligent and understanding of economics and such, fails to see how a billion dollar industry can be created by marijuana taxing with the information provided, even if a lot of it are only predictions. Look at California's supposed income based on medical cannabis. It's over a billion dollars. That's just California and it's not even for recreational use. On top of that the, shops and all other kinds of stores and bars that will generate income, well, is it really that hard to imagine?

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

edit: one more thing, it is not true that no one has died from marijuana usage. To overdoes on this drug is extremely hard, because you need to smoke your entire body weight for you to completely overdose. for one you can't afford that much and two that would just be stupid.

So you're telling me that you think someone possesses the ability to not only smoke, I dunno 125lbs (how much I weigh) in not only an allotted time of I dunno, a week straight but also stay awake for the process? You must know some serious smokers man.

[TC_llama499]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

According to the Office of National Drug Control the U.S. federal government spent over $19 billion dollars in 2003 on the War on Drugs, at a rate of about $600 per second. is it really worth the billions of dollars being spent just to try to keep marijuana off the streets?

The FBI’s annual Uniform Crime Report stated, “786,545 people arrested in 2005 for marijuana violations made up 42.6 percent of all drug arrests, and more arrests then the total number for all violent crimes combined, including murder, manslaughter, and rape, robbery and assault.” this right here is what first caught my attention when i started researching this topic.

so the government is spending billions of dollars and using a majority of the jail systems time and space just to try and prevent people from smoking marijuana. I 100% think that it is a good idea to legalize marijuana and espicialy Hemp


By the way Industrial hemp has a THC content of between 0.05 and 1%. Marijuana has a THC content of 3% to 20%. To receive a standard psychoactive dose would require a person to power-smoke 10-12 hemp cigarettes over an extremely short period of time. The large volume and high temperature of vapor, gas and smoke would be almost impossible for a person to withstand. yet Hemp is still illegal because of its close relation with Marijuana. For info on Hemps hundreds of uses just click here

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

U.S. federal government spent over $19 billion dollars in 2003 on the War on Drugs

The war on drugs, not the war on drug. This figure presumably also includes the cost of trying to keep cocaine, heroine, etc etc off the streets as well.

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

True. However, marijuana accounts for over 60% of what's being fought against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFmtirw5io8&feature=player_embedded

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

However, marijuana accounts for over 60% of what's being fought against. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFmti...layer_embedded

The figure of "60 percent or more" he said, was of "the total drug problem [being] related to marijuana exports and to marijuana being sold in the united states." You'll notice that the general meaning of this has nothing to do with what America is spending on the war on drugs.

From this link alone, all I see is that about 60% of the illegal drug trade by price, not even by volume coming up through Mexico into the US is in Marijuana. That in no way suggests that the same 60% of American anti-drug resources are also being used against marijuana.

Even if we assume that the US is directing the money in exact proportion to the current sales figures of various kinds of drug (which makes no sense, even for silly US policies) that still cuts down the magnitude of his argument by 40%, while 11.4 billion dollars is still a very large amount, so is the 7.6 billion dollars that -don't- impact his argument.

[TC_llama499]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

edit: one more thing, it is not true that no one has died from marijuana usage. To overdoes on this drug is extremely hard, because you need to smoke your entire body weight for you to completely overdose. for one you can't afford that much and two that would just be stupid.

at this i forgot where i read this but from what i understand you only have to smoke about 8lb of marijuanna, but this is physicaly imposible to do. after about MAYBE an ounce you will fall asleep (which is why Marijuanna is used to help insomnia)

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Ooh Korny, just as another scaling down of your figures, the same Miron study that you quoted earlier as saying that 30 billion dollars would be generated in government revenue was under the assumption that ALL drugs would be completely decriminalized and legalized for sale and use in the US.

Of the 30 billion, only 6.7 would actually be from marijuana. Again, 6.7 billion dollars is still a lot of money, but it's only 22% of the figures you quoted earlier.

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Fine. The original argument is will marijuana legalization fix our economy? Fix? No. Help? Yes. Like previously stated and unanswered, California, can generate $1.3 billion dollar a year alone from marijuana. With this information, i think that it is more than safe to assume that taxing marijuana will generate additional billions and billions with all the previous information and statistics provided. I don't see where the argument lies anymore regarding whether it'll really help or not.

And i already stated that I doubt it would really create as much as 30 billion dollars.

Also, I could smoke 8 pounds of weed and not die.

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

I guess it's time for another round of "Devonin explains what he does in CT"

The thing that Chuckman seemed unable to grasp is that I'm not trying to "win" and I'm not in any danger of "losing" because I'm not actually debating my view against you. What I do in CT is try to foster in depth analysis and real questioning of one's position.

If all you want to do is prove you are right and "win" you'll have to engage other users of the forum on the subject. The only reason you don't also see me attacking the logic of the people who oppose your view is that, basically, nobody else is opposing your view.

Go have a look at any of the religion threads in this forum and in chit-chat, and you'll see that I'm just as likely to be arguing on one side as the other in any given post.

What I'm doing by pointing out flaws in your logic, and reasoning as I perceive them, is trying to help you to be more critically aware of your own reasons for taking the stance that you do. Do you think in a future discussion of why it would make economic sense to legalize marijuana you'll say that Miron says it could generate 30 billion dollars in government revenue now? I hope not. Saying he found it would generate 6.7 billion dollars in government revenue is still a -STRONG- argument that legalization would make economic sense, but in perhaps a more formal or heated debate, you won't get called out later for misrepresenting his findings.

I like to think, in my less modest moments, that I provide a useful service to this forum by poking holes in the arguments of -anybody- whose argument seems to warrant it, and by so doing, encourage everyone to be more critical and analytical about their arguments in the future.

It took me 2 pages before I actually spelled out my own poisition on marijuana (Which is far more simliar to yours than it is dissimilar) only because several posters were reacting as if, by suggesting flaws in their reasoning, I must be vehemently opposed to their view.

I'm perfectly willing to argue any side of any issue I know much of anything about, and believe me, if there had been a strong back and forth between say, Korny and Guidohunter (Since he expressed some opposition to the view as well) I'd have been just as keen to nitpick at Guido's side as well.

I want to be a facilitator in this forum, keeping the threads active and keeping the brains working. Not the "winner" of "fights"

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

And I wonder how quickly your stance will change when you get into a major auto-wreck and learn that the guy on the other side crashed into you because he was smoking marijuana.

Except if there actually is evidence to support that, for example, driving while under the influence of marijuana is unsafe or even just less safe than not, who says legalization of marijuana won't include the implementation of a law against driving while using it?

Alcohol is legal for consumption, you can even legally consume it excessively, there are just strict limits on what you can do while you're drinking, and that includes no driving, or operating heavy machinery, heck it includes -walking outside- while drunk.

I can't imagine a decriminalization of marijuana without at least some legislation of things you aren't allowed to also do at the same time.

[TC_llama499]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

This number is given for the current usage of marijuana. ".25%" of the CURRENT USERS who have heart attacks are due to marijuana use.

Sorry, but to me this screams "we should NEVER legalize this." That "fact" you given proves that the drug can affect you enough to KILL YOU AND OTHERS AROUND YOU(example: driving). A drop in blood pressure can easily make you light headed.

so whats your view on alcohol and cigarettes then? because im sure those don't kill anyone right? And just because it would be legalized it would still have laws and boundaries. A DUI is a DUI no matter what you are intoxicated bye, ie alcohol, marijuana, or other drugs.

Someone also stated somewhere in this thread "an ounce will put you sleep". So if the drug is legalized, manufactured at cheaper rates, and used more; how many people will use more than an ounce and drive, or do anything that requires you to actually be awake?

actually the government would not be selling it at cheaper rates. the point of legalizing it is so they can TAX it and make a profit to help us out with our debt. You also make it sound like just because it will become a legal substance that it is going to be abused by everyone. Yes there will probably be a few people who will do this, but i assure you that there is no mind altering substance that is legal that isn't being abused.