Who Killed The Electric Car?

[Vendetta21]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

GE is remaking the EV1 in the form of the Chevy Volt. Don't kid yourself in thinking that the electric car is dead, and that it will never happen. It just takes a longer period of time than you'd hope, and it's slower than is worth paying attention to. The electric car will be the next major innovation in transportation, and if public pressure persists, then the burden of doing something about global warming will be placed on the energy sector rather than the transportation sector.

All one has to do is look at the TESLA Motors Roadster to know that the electric car will be viable when research costs come down.

[Afrombean]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

The problem here is multifaceted.

Don't just think of the oil companies. The auto manufacturers.

Think of the people who own small gas stations. Car dealerships. Car mechanics.

A full-on switch to the infrastructure that large would shift many jobs from one industry to another, or remove them entirely. And any jobs made from this would no-doubt be skilled jobs. This means more time and money invested in education just so that Joe Shmoe car mechanic can learn how to service the entirely electric systems.

So yes, it would be good for the environment, and it'd be nice for the consumer, but that's not enough sometimes. Sometimes maintaining jobs and industries are more important, even if you cut out the "MUST MAKE MONEY" folks at the top.

And this, too, is without recognizing the limitations of the electric model. They're typically slower with smaller max distances. Then also notice that this electricity comes from somewhere. Yeah, you plug it in and your electric company supplies, but where does that come? Usually from burning coal. So again, it'd help a little, but it's still not perfect. And even if America makes a shift to only producing electric cars, what about the old cars still on the road? What about the old cars still on the road in other nations? What about countries who would rather continue building cars the way they always have rather than investing in new tech?

[Vendetta21]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

And this, too, is without recognizing the limitations of the electric model. They're typically slower with smaller max distances. Then also notice that this electricity comes from somewhere. Yeah, you plug it in and your electric company supplies, but where does that come? Usually from burning coal. So again, it'd help a little, but it's still not perfect. And even if America makes a shift to only producing electric cars, what about the old cars still on the road? What about the old cars still on the road in other nations? What about countries who would rather continue building cars the way they always have rather than investing in new tech?

Technological shifts don't displace workers, they unite and create them. While it hurts those with specialized oil knowledge in the long run, it does create new jobs. The internet changed up a lot of ****, and destroyed some fields of work. That's a moot argument.

The real problem is that electric cars are expensive and less useful. Or were, that is. Now they look like the most viable paradigm shift. Don't believe me? Check out the TESLA Motors Roadster and the Chevy Volt. One is effective and one is cheap (relative).

[Go_Oilers_Go]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

Technological shifts don't displace workers, they unite and create them. While it hurts those with specialized oil knowledge in the long run, it does create new jobs. The internet changed up a lot of ****, and destroyed some fields of work. That's a moot argument.

The real problem is that electric cars are expensive and less useful. Or were, that is. Now they look like the most viable paradigm shift. Don't believe me? Check out the TESLA Motors Roadster and the Chevy Volt. One is effective and one is cheap (relative).

Thank you. You touched on all the bases that I would have talked about.

For those that are deterred by the theories of electric cars being pansy cars with no balls, the TESLA car is capable of 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. Also, take into account that electric cars are still in a relatively infantile stage. With another 50 years of development under their belts I would be willing to bet that they can perform every bit as good as the gas-powered vehicles of today.

[Necros140606]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

A full-on switch to the infrastructure that large would shift many jobs from one industry to another, or remove them entirely. And any jobs made from this would no-doubt be skilled jobs. This means more time and money invested in education just so that Joe Shmoe car mechanic can learn how to service the entirely electric systems.

Then also notice that this electricity comes from somewhere. Yeah, you plug it in and your electric company supplies, but where does that come? Usually from burning coal

yep these are also good reasons as why this project has been bohicotted

as for the energy used, if i were rich enough i would obviously not use the electric company energy since i know it comes from a not clean reasource. i would rather install solar panels on my house or make deal with anther company which does use clean energy. it pointless to use an electric car if the pollution is just transferred and not eliminated.

[Go_Oilers_Go]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

You do realize that they are hard at work developing cleaner ways to produce electricity, eh? Believe me, these variables have all been taken into account.

[funmonkey54]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

You do realize that they are hard at work developing cleaner ways to produce electricity, eh? Believe me, these variables have all been taken into account.

Tis' true.
The search for a cleaner energy source in general has been highly emphasized, funded, and explored for a few years now.

[TrueBOSS]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

Yes they have, in the U.S., Europe, and Japan (Maybe Russia and a few other places but I'm not certain). But there will still be A LOT of other countries that wish to use oil based cars. I'm not trying to undermind anyone but I am curious as to your prospect on what your thoughts are here.

[Afrobean]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

Thank you. You touched on all the bases that I would have talked about.

For those that are deterred by the theories of electric cars being pansy cars with no balls, the TESLA car is capable of 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. Also, take into account that electric cars are still in a relatively infantile stage. With another 50 years of development under their belts I would be willing to bet that they can perform every bit as good as the gas-powered vehicles of today.

See, 50 years is a reasonable time over which to make a shift such as this. Someone mentioned the Internet before, and it's not like people woke up in the 70's and were like, "hey you know that network thing we've been fooling with? Let's make it even bigger and make it reach into EVERY HOME and get support on MANY HANDHELD DEVICES such as PERSONAL PORTABLE TELEPHONES".

No. But a turnaround of about 50 years... yeah, I think that's a reasonable time in which to go throw a shift like this.

ps Vendetta, what I was saying wasn't so much "there will be less jobs" so much as "jobs will be lost and new jobs will replace them, but these jobs will be of an entirely different nature and likely require not only additional training, but more extensive training". Also consider that functions of the current infrastructure that are handled across many areas of employment would be easy to consolidate in an entirely electric system. You wouldn't need oil, so no more oil bought at stores, no more oil change places. You won't need gas, so no more gas stations, which in turn could lessen the amount of convenience stores around. Not as many specific components within to be specialized in, or, if there are, they're of a more technical nature. I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that jobs will be consolidated and shifted, and some of them will change from being "trade" jobs to being something that requires a higher degree of education.

[Vendetta21]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

Vendetta, what I was saying wasn't so much "there will be less jobs" so much as "jobs will be lost and new jobs will replace them, but these jobs will be of an entirely different nature and likely require not only additional training, but more extensive training". Also consider that functions of the current infrastructure that are handled across many areas of employment would be easy to consolidate in an entirely electric system. You wouldn't need oil, so no more oil bought at stores, no more oil change places. You won't need gas, so no more gas stations, which in turn could lessen the amount of convenience stores around. Not as many specific components within to be specialized in, or, if there are, they're of a more technical nature. I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that jobs will be consolidated and shifted, and some of them will change from being "trade" jobs to being something that requires a higher degree of education.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty sure what you're point is, is moot again. Charge stations exist in California because it's cheaper and easier to charge at a station than it is to charge at home, often times.

These charge stations charge a cars battery from empty to full in less than 20 minutes, but they do take a little bit of time. Charging at home is effective for a lot of use, but it takes hours instead of minutes and it costs more. Something as simple as this creates the potential for charge stations to have multiple uses, a charge-station/lunch place, charge-station/bill-pay place. There's a lot of options.

And you're probably right in some respect, but I'm pretty sure that it will be easier to do work on electric cars than it will be to do work on gas cars. Why? Because with electric components you can just have snap-in/snap-out pieces. It would be like being a computer technician. I think you're making the assumption that the market won't be efficient in achieving its goal, and that these things will be modal. You need to envision what consumers would actually want and be willing to pay for, and that's probably where the field is going to go.

[Afrobean]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty sure what you're point is, is moot again. Charge stations exist in California because it's cheaper and easier to charge at a station than it is to charge at home, often times.

These charge stations charge a cars battery from empty to full in less than 20 minutes, but they do take a little bit of time. Charging at home is effective for a lot of use, but it takes hours instead of minutes and it costs more. Something as simple as this creates the potential for charge stations to have multiple uses, a charge-station/lunch place, charge-station/bill-pay place. There's a lot of options.

I get what you're saying, but if you're suggesting charge stations take the place of gas stations in society, that's still a massive shift to the system. I just don't like such massive suggestions being made lightly.

And you're probably right in some respect, but I'm pretty sure that it will be easier to do work on electric cars than it will be to do work on gas cars. Why? Because with electric components you can just have snap-in/snap-out pieces. It would be like being a computer technician. I think you're making the assumption that the market won't be efficient in achieving its goal, and that these things will be modal. You need to envision what consumers would actually want and be willing to pay for, and that's probably where the field is going to go.

Yeah, but if you think about the seed that started this thread, it's quite apparent that it doesn't much matter what the consumer wants if the producers refuse to allow them to have it.

[devonin]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

I would be utterly shocked if every industry that is involved in producing, selling, and then maintaining vehicles doesn't already have an entire infrastructure planned and ready to go to switch away from gas-powered cars. It's pretty clear that such a shift is going to happen. What they're doing now is what any good profitable business does: They're using what they have until the last possible moment of profitability.

Eventually, rising gas prices, slowly increasing scarcity of fossil fuels, more conscientious consumers etc etc will force a shift to another kind of car, and they'll be ready for the shift if they have any idea how to run their company, but until that moment, they're not going to change voluntarily from a system that will become obsolete but that is still making them money now.

Fun Fact: By 1900, 80% of all cars were electric

[Afrobean]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

I would be utterly shocked if every industry that is involved in producing, selling, and then maintaining vehicles doesn't already have an entire infrastructure planned and ready to go to switch away from gas-powered cars. It's pretty clear that such a shift is going to happen. What they're doing now is what any good profitable business does: They're using what they have until the last possible moment of profitability.

Yeah, but pushing the shift quickly will cause trouble. Something like this needs to be eased into. Just look at how automobiles overcame other forms of travel. It's not like the year after automobiles were invented, every person owned a car of their own and drove it everywhere. That took a long time for the structure to shift.

And frankly, if not for what Ford did, I doubt if the world would be the same place it is today. I guess what we need for this to happen is genius innovation and the willingness to get these products cheaply to consumers. But I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, at least not on a large enough scale.

Eventually, rising gas prices

If what you claim is true later on in this paragraph, demand will go down over time, and because of that, price too should go down over time. And have you been to the pump lately? Not exactly what I'd call "rising".

slowly increasing scarcity of fossil fuels

This won't be an issue in our lifetime.

more conscientious consumers etc etc will force a shift to another kind of car,

This is like when McDonald's tries to gauge what the public wants, releases tons of salads and yogurt, and people STILL buy Big Macs and large fries. People will say they want one thing, but that doesn't mean they'll buy it when it comes along. Hell, even once pure electric is an viable alternative (that is, not having a much higher initial cost), I bet people will STILL choose gas based just because that is what they know, it's what they're comfortable with. Even folks who say "yeah global warming sucks I'd totally buy a hybrid now if they weren't so expensive". People are stupid.

and they'll be ready for the shift if they have any idea how to run their company, but until that moment, they're not going to change voluntarily from a system that will become obsolete but that is still making them money now.

Right, and frankly, I don't think the industry will become unprofitable for a long time to come. There is a lot of money to be made not in manufacturing (not very profitable... look at the big car companies to see proof), but in accessories, repairs, things like that. It's not just an industry, in truth, it's far more reaching than that.

[devonin]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

I want to think that back when I was putting more effort into researching the actual numbers involved, I gave it about 40-60 years before the shift would start in earnest. But even then, you're probably still looking at more like 75 years before what I'd call "widespread" use of alternate fuel vehicles.

[TrueBOSS]

Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?

hmmm, I just had an interesting thought. I heard on TV about a year ago that there is a lot of research going into flying cars nowadays also. According to the report, in 20 years, they're suppost to be a luxury only rich people can get. In 40 they're suppost to be a widespread commodity. I'm starting to wonder if that research is tieing into research on the Electric Car. In theory, an electric flying car would be an appeal grand enough to cause a relatively fast shift from oil based cars to electric cars. I have no idea how much these two topics tie into eachother but I thought if it as an interesting idea so I thought I'd say.