The Death Penalty

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

And with executions there's the possibility for killing an innocent person. So what?

At least with an escape, there is the chance to catch them before they commit another crime. Once you murder an innocent person wrongfully, you can't take it back.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

So, either way there's the possibility of something bad happening. If they escape they may kill again. If they're executed they might have been innocent.

The question is, which is a worse risk?

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

Killing an innocent person, hands down, bar none, absolutely no chance is the worst possible consequence of the legal and justice system.

[Konradz]

Re: The Death Penalty

On the right to life, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states as below :

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Answering to

Excuse me, but who or what decided that anyone has a right to life at all?

I think you can trust the declaration of human rights to be pretty fair.

The United States government pays lip service to the Declaration, but its courts have consistently refused to enforce its provisions reasoning it is not a legally binding treaty, or contract, but only a declaration. This ignores the fact that international law recognizes the provisions of the Declaration as being incorporated into customary international law which is binding on all nations.

And I don't even understand how that makes sense. They agree with it but don't go by it just because they can legally go around it. Beautiful country.

[Coolgamer]

Re: The Death Penalty

Never. Too many innocent people have died as a result of the death penalty. Here's something for you to think about... 81% of the world's executions in 2002 took place in just three countries: China, Iran, and the USA. While he was still running for his first presidential term, George W. Bush said he felt capital punishment "sends a chilling message that there is a consequence to your actions". In the same speech he spoke of the "sacredness of human life". Since 1990, the USA has executed more prisoners who were under the age of eighteen at the time of the crime then any other country in the world.

In 80% of executions since 1977, the original murder victims were white.
A report by Amnesty International lists 50 cases where African-Americans were convicted by all-white juries, each one showing a pattern of black juror exclusion by government prosecutors.

At the the 1985 execution of James Raulerson, convicted of killing a police officer, more then 70 police attended, some wearing T-shirts reading "Crank up old Sparky". They celebrated with champagne and applause outside the prison.

A volunteer witness at the 2000 execution of Steve Roach said it was her third time, and that she kept volunteering because she found them "interesting". Another witness reportedly came to watch Roach die as a way of avenging the killing of her own son- for which no one had ever been convicted.

Napoleon Beazley, who was 17 at the time of his crime, in which he killed a man during a car jacking, an act he admitted to, had no prior arrests and was president of his senior class. He was sentenced to death by an all-white jury. Before his execution , he declared: "The act I committed to put me here was not just heinous, it was senseless. Tonight, we declare to the world that justice does not allow for a second chance... tonight, we tell our children that in some instances, killing is right."

Bush remarks, 'Bush Defends Executions', CBSNews.com, 26 May 2000.

Napoleon Beazley's last statement, Texas Department of Criminal Justice, https://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/be...poleonlast.htm

'Napoleon's Last Stand', Texas Monthly magazine, July 2002.

Amnesty International, 'Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty', web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty_facts_eng

web.amnesty.org/library/print/engamr510032002


Totally off topic, here's the best last words from death row inmates, with sources:

Yes sir, I charge the people of the jury. Trial Judge, the Prosecutor that cheated to get this conviction. I charge each and every one of you with the murder of an innocent man. All the way to the CCA, Federal Court, 5th Circuit and Supreme Court. You will answer to your Maker when God has found out that you executed an innocent man. May God have mercy on you.

My love to my son, my daughter, Nancy, Kathy, Randy, and my future grandchildren. I ask for forgiveness for all of the poison that I brought into the US, the country I love. Please forgive me for my sins. If my murder makes it easier for everyone else let the forgiveness please be a part of the healing. Go ahead Warden, murder me. Jesus take me home. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/pippenroylast.htm

Yes I do. I would like to say to my two brother-in-laws and the rest of my family that I would like to thank you for supporting me through all of this. I went home to be with my Father and I went home as a trooper. I would like to say to Damien's family I did not murder your son. I did not do it. I just want you to know that -- I did not murder Damien and would ask for all of your forgiveness and I will see all of you soon. I love you guys. I love you guys. That's it. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/wyattwilliamlast.htm

Yeah. Momma, I just want you to know I love you. I want all of you to know I love you all. I am at peace; we know what it is. We know the truth. Stay out of crime; there is no point in it. I am at peace. We know the truth and I know it. I have some peace. I am glad it didn't take that long - no 10 or 20 years. I am at peace. And I want everyone to know I did not walk to this because this is straight up murder. I just want everybody to know I didn't walk to this. The reason is because it's murder. I am not going to play a part in my own murder. No one should have to do that. I love you all. I do not know all of your names. And I don't know how you feel about me. And whether you believe it or not, I did not kill them. I just want you all to have peace; you know what I'm saying. There is no point in that. It is neither here nor there. You have to move past it. It is time to move on. You know what I'm saying. I want each one of my loved ones to move on. I am glad it didn't last long. I am glad it didn't last long. I am at peace. I am at peace to the fullest. The people that did this - they know. I am not here to point fingers. God will let them know. If this is what it takes, just do what you got to do to get past it. What it takes. I am ready, Warden. Love you all. Let my son know I love him. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/reeselamontlast.htm

May I speak to my family? Honey, I love you. Be strong and take care of yourselves. Thanks for being there. Take care of yourself. Ms. Irene, thank you for everything you have done. Chaplain Hart, thank you for helping me. Gary, thank you. Maria, Maria, I love you baby. Thank you for being there for me and all these people here will find the one who did this damn crime. I am going home to be with God. Thank you. Thank you, Warden. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/wilsonjackielast.htm

Yes I do. I would like to address you first. I did not kill your loved one, but I hope that one day you find out who did. I wish I could tell you the reason why, or give some kind of solace; you lost someone you love very much. The same as my family and friends are going to lose in a few minutes. I am sure he died unjustly, just like I am. I did not murder him; I did not have anything to do with his death. And to you my family and friends, I love you dearly. Even though I die, that love for you will never die. Into Your hands, Lord, I commit my spirit. Thank you. Thank you all. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/ramirezluislast.htm

Yes sir. Sorry that I have to put my family through this. All of you know I got my peace. And I hope you find peace. And to the family, the truth will come out and I hope you find peace. I got my peace. I hope everybody has their peace. I am tired. I am going to be in your heart. I love you all. To everybody else, the truth will be known. It didn't come out in time to save my life. It is wrong to put the families through this. But when it comes out, I hope it stops this. It is wrong for the prosecutors to lie and make witnesses say what they need them to say. The truth has always been there. I just hope everybody has their peace. Today I get mine. I love you all. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/fuentesanthonylast.htm

I'm multi-quoting this because I've noticed that most of the people supporting the death penalty have pointedly avoided discussing the points I've brought up in these statements.

[1961casey]

Re: The Death Penalty

Ok, so the United Nations declared that everyone has the right to 'life, liberty and the security of persons.' So what? It's a nice statement but what is going to back it up? As it stands, it is a nice sentiment, but when you consider that the majority of nations that make up the UN are despots, or police states it ends up being pretty empty. Therefore, until there is a mechanism in place to punish people or states that remove these rights from others it is pointless and unenforcable. If there is no equitable punishment for murder that is carried out by some accepted institution, then our right to life is an illusion. That is why the death penalty must be an option at the very least, if only to back up the seriousness with which we consider the crime of murder.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

Yes, devonin, but the escapee can kill many more than one innocent person.

[mixindrinks]

Re: The Death Penalty

Never really posted before in the forums but rzr I TOTALLY agree with you on the death penalty if someone murders another person intentionally, they should get the death penalty and be punished in a way that is as bad as or nearly as bad as the murder they committed.

ASC

[RubiedCross]

Re: The Death Penalty

If this hasn't been posted yet: The Death Penalty should be a choice for the one getting the sentence. If they committed a crime that is deemed worthy of the Death Penalty, then they should be able to choose that or the sentence in jail that they would normally get.

Why anyone would choose the Death Penalty, who knows. I would, as I'd prefer that than life in jail. But that's just me. Other than making the Death Penalty a personal choice for the one deemed guilty, I doubt there is any other way of making the death penalty NOT optional that would settle politically and humanely.

[gnr61]

Re: The Death Penalty

Yes, devonin, but the escapee can kill many more than one innocent person.

You're arguing that we should kill people based on your assertion that we aren't competent enough to keep them in jail. Allowing the death penalty strictly for that reason is ridiculous as you should be focusing on the real problem: apparently there's a significant enough probability that someone stuck in maximum security solitary confinement for the rest of their life could escape that we should kill them just as a precaution. Now that's saying something about our maximum security if you believe this to be the case.

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

And if he does believe it to be the case, he had better have some pretty compelling statistics to back it up. I'd suggest something on the order of at least 1% of all people convicted of murder having to escape and murder again before he can try to suggest that this requires more application of the death penalty.

One or two exceptions every half dozen years is not nearly significant enough.

More to the point, if we could compare the number of people convicted of capital crimes who've been later proven to be innocent to the number of people convicted of capital crimes who've later esacaped and continued killing, we could see which side is the more significant.

And I know where I'm betting that falls.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

The stats have a point, too. The people support it.

I found here, some stastitcs about the death penalty in Florida. In 2007, 128 inmate escaped from prisons in Florida. What would happen if all 128 of those esapees killed two people after escaping? We'd have 256 dead instead of 128.

Or, more accurately, in Florida 06 1,129 people were murdered. 112 of the killers in jail escaped.

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

I found here, some stastitcs about the death penalty in Florida. In 2007, 128 inmate escaped from prisons in Florida. What would happen if all 128 of those esapees killed two people after escaping? We'd have 256 dead instead of 128.

How many were murderers? And bear in mind that your numbers include -all- escapees from the combined facilities of the Florida Department of Corrections. That means it includes "major institutions, annexes, work camps, work release centers, and road prisons throughout the state" as well as "Probation & Parole Facilities"

So how many of the 128 people escaped who had already served their time and were on probation or out on parole? I imagine the larger number of escapes were people on parole and on probation since, you know, they aren't actually -stopped- from running away.

You can't just present one number and expect us to go "Oh yes, how true."

Or, more accurately, in Florida 06 1,129 people were murdered. 112 of the killers in jail escaped.

According to your website, a grand total of 122 people esacaped from all facilities under the purview of the Florida Department of Corrections, I'm curious where you determined that fully 92% of ALL escapees in Florida that year were people convicted of murder.

[Coolgamer]

Re: The Death Penalty

http://www.protectthehuman.com/videos/hear-troy-davis

Damian from Amnesty UK sez, "Troy Davis is scheduled to be executed in Georgia at 7pm local time on 23 September. He has been on death row for 17 years for a murder he maintains he did not commit. His appeal for clemency was denied on 12 September. In March 2008, the Chief Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court, joined by two other Justices on the Court, wrote that: "In this case, nearly every witness who identified Davis as the shooter at trial has now disclaimed his or her ability to do so reliably. Three persons have stated that Sylvester Coles confessed to being the shooter. Two witnesses have stated that Sylvester Coles, contrary to his trial testimony, possessed a handgun immediately after the murder. Another witness has provided a description of the crimes that might indicate that Sylvester Coles was the shooter."

[N.T.M.]

Re: The Death Penalty

Funny: initially when I read this I assumed that the debate would be centered around the idea that death is too good for some people. For example if a guy rapes a child he shouldn't receive the death penalty. That'd be too good for him. He autta be tortured every motherf*cking day.

Uh... Well I guess that didn't really contribute to the thread. Sorry, I just had to letcha guys know.