Holiday Myths: Giving to Charity

[GuidoHunter]

Nobody cares about your motives except you. It's his actions that were "charitable" because he helped many people, regardless of the fact that he was most likely doing it to make a lot of money for himself.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[The_Q]

E. It is a simple law in society that those who help others become successful. If you don't help others no one wants you and you fail at life. Why is Bill Gates rich? Because he helped millions of people by giving them a good operating system for PCs and making PCs accessible to a huge portion of the population. Why is Donald Trump rich? Because he has a ton of good apartments and land that people can use and live in. You do well in life because you help people, even if you aren't getting any profit whatsoever from helping them.

I'm sorry, but you have this mixed up. Bill Gates is a marketing genius, that's why he's rich. Donald Trump is rich because he's a freeloader. Gates came up with marketing and sales techniques that made him more money than he can ever hope for. Trump doesn't help or give to charity because he's a bona fide arse. They do, however, provide meaningful products to many people. But it's not in the order you seem to think of it. Because he made a good quality product many people got to benefit from this product's ability to allow them greater productiivity (how many times did I say product, now?). Gates did not make the product intending to make people's lives better. He made it intending to get rich. In fact, Gates didn't even product Microsoft and from what I understand, he doens't code at all. He just sells it.

Now, on to volunteer and charity. Volunteer work can be gratifying, yes, but it is often not as productive as enjoying yourself. We went over opprotunity cost already, didn't we? Allow me to add to it. By helping myself, I help everyone. How do I do this? It is a proven fact that happier workers produce more. If I make myself happier, will I produce more? Yes. Do you benefit when I produce more? Yes. Do I benefit when I'm not only happy but get paid more for being happy (because I produced more)? Yes.

Also, to go with the "Hell" and "Heaven" points. If you think God is that exclusive, I'd love to recommend a book to you. It's called the Bible and it's an international bestseller. I'd also go with the Koran, and almost any other religious text that God has produced. He's much more forgiving than that. And it's not the point of this thread anyway. Don't mention it again.

Q

[Tasselfoot]

to clarify Q... i do believe Gates helped to write the original Microsoft code (and if not, it was his idea, with Paul Allen). from my remembering... he was a Harvard dropout who would have gotten a major in CS, or its 70s equivalent.

[PowerCosmic]

I am sure that accumulating as much temporary pleasure as you can feels good at the time, but people who only live for themselves are nothing. They don't care about anyone, and no one cares about them. When they die, they are forgotten quickly. They contributed nothing, they were just a speck on the shoe of eternity. Giving something like money, time, or effort not only improve the lives of others, but also increase the quality of life as a whole. I realize that happier workers are more productive, but some people don't like to see or hear about other people suffering. There are such things as motives beyond personal pleasure. They like to offer relief to those in pain, because it is the right thing to do. When you die, everything you did for yourself is gone, and only what you did for others remains. Of course, there are exceptions, but how good you felt during your life is never remembered after you are gone.

[Tasselfoot]

its called weakness...

i wish our society was more like the jungle. those not strong enough to survive on their own are killed and eaten by those that are.

and for the record... i care almost entirely for myself, and people care about me. they happen to be less selfish than i am, but this is not my fault.

and i could care less about someone else's suffering. not my problem. i don't get how you get to decide what is the right thing to do. you may feel that wasting your own time for one cause or another is the right thing to do... i feel that its a waste of time and extremely unproductive.

lastly, i don't care if i'm remembered when i die. i don't care about the lives of my children (if i have any), or wife, after i die. its their responsibility to care for themselves.

[PowerCosmic]

Well Tasselfoot, people who care for each other tend to survive a lot longer in a jungle situation than those who care only for themselves. So maybe you could say that caring for others is an evolutionary advantage. And humans, as a social animal, typically feel some sort of responsibility towards other human beings. To me, not caring about another living creature of your own species is both an evolutionary blunder and an unhappy existence. It has been shown in studies that regardless of how much money people make, the three determining factors for happiness are social relationships, health, and safety. Amount of money in no way affects happiness, unless of course you are unable to provide your own basic needs and the needs of your loved ones. Social relationships is the number 1 determining factor for happiness, and if you don't care about anyone, I have a hard time believing that they will care for you for long. People don't really warm up to those that only want to look out for themselves.

[Tasselfoot]

money can buy anything. money can help prolong ones health. money can buy safety. look at all the rich old men with trophey wives.

don't see how your points are helping your argument. and, truthfully... we'll never see eye to eye on this. i have my opinion and you have yours. with that, i shall retire to nocturnal slumber.

[DracIV]

You guys just don't seem to get this. Society has one simple rule: you will succeed if you help others. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter if you intend to help others, if you even care that you are helping others, or if you want to hurt people. As long as you help people you will succeed. It doesn't matter if you help with a product, a skill, an aircraft design, whatever. It isn't that hard. If you know this one rule and play by it, you will succeed in life finacially, religiously, emotionally, or mentally. Period. There are no exceptions. If you help people you will succeed.

Squeek: Do you enjoy playing any sports? Certain types of work, like running around, or fishing, or dribbling a ball, or whatever can be relaxing. Simple labor is especially relaxing for high intellectuals. Jobs like bricklaying, carpentry, etc. are an effective relaxation technique. 4,000+ years of human knowledge all agrees with me here. The only exception is people with mental instabilities or irregularities (like a tumor) that cripple your perception or ability to relax.

Oh yeah, and what the heck are D and E supposed to mean on your list? "Helping others does not mean wasting time"? That is totally irrelevant to what those letters said. Quick answer to B: both and more. The exception to A was an obvious one, so why did people respond to promptly to A, but completely forget to actually understand what D and E said in my post and instead focus on A and a crippled fragment of E?

[The_Q]

Cosmic Power, I'm afraid that you arrived in CT too late in it's age to fully appreciate that it is a well accepted fact that everything has a price. Yes, there is a price for dignity, respect, and even human life. All the prices change from person to person (just like everything else) , but they are there. If you don't know how putting prices on these things is accomplished, please look on my previous threads, especially on ones involving abortion. Either that or ask me personally to explain it to you.

To address the whole "you're a better person if you donate and give to charities" issue again, this is just a crazed fact that religion often stuffs into people's heads. No, doing things for charity do not make you a better person and they certainly don't make you well remembered. I will admit, though, that it is quite often that many economists overlook certain variables such as "love" and "compassion". Ironic when you think about the purpose of economics, though...

Ok, moving onwards. Who ever said that this pleasure is temporary? If I enjoy myself now, that means I'm starting a habit of enjoying myself (which is work in some cases, but not necessarily volunteer work) and then keep enjoying myself. I'm starting a neverending cycle. To reiterate again, when I buy something else, that money is sent around and around, benefiting everyone who uses it.

Honestly, I don't know how to reply to this without simply repeating what was written in previous posts. You have used points that were supposed to have been defeated and you insist that your morals prevail over factual evidence.

Q

[flypie743]

Re: RE: Holiday Myths: Giving to Charity

This is going to stem many people hating me, but.. Why am I donating to lazy people in the first place? The rule in this country is "If you're poor, get a job". I already pay tax dollars to lazy people who are on unemployment and welfare, why should I give away more of my hard-earned cash to help someone else instead of myself?

I believe that I come first. I am the most important thing in my life. Everything else comes second. Now, if you want to call that self-centered, go right ahead. Who are you living your life for if not for yourself?

~Squeek

One of the most false beliefs about poor people is that they are lazy. Have you ever heard of the working poor? People who can barely put food on the table working 5 jobs and have kids. They are poor and maybe they only have a low-paying job. Sometimes the poor people can't get jobs. It is not that they are lazy. Not that some aren't. I am not saying that some people are poor and are lazy. However, the stereotype is that all people who are poor are lazy and should get a job.

There is nothing wrong with yourself coming first. I for one believe that I come first and than my family and friends. That doesn't make me unwilling to help out those who need it and to donate money from time to time.

[Tasselfoot]

Drac... what about people who made glow-stuff (clocks, watches, toothpaste, etc) in the 40s and 50s. the substance used to create the glow? Radon. their products killed thousands of people. same with Asbestos. now, those people were successful. they made money. did they help people? they thought their products were, but they weren't. they killed. slowly.

also, what about a guy who day trades his own money. they have no clients who they are making money for... they are only profiting for themselves.

there are plenty more scenarios that i can give to continue proving you wrong, but i think i got my point across.

people donate and do charity work because they want to. because they feel it makes a difference. but, if you look at the economics of it, it doesn't help. it hurts the economy. and, as far as the totality of "you will succeed if you help people," sure... anyone who creates a product that people are willing to buy are obviously helping someone, or making them more appealing, or making them feel safer (jewelry doesn't really help people. guns don't usually help people, etc), but that doesn't mean jack. MOTIVE is what is important... and no CEO is motivated by helping people. Shareholder Profit is the ONLY motivation for a corporation/company... so therefore, its the only motivation for its employees.

[Tasselfoot]

One of the most false beliefs about poor people is that they are lazy. Have you ever heard of the working poor? People who can barely put food on the table working 5 jobs and have kids. They are poor and maybe they only have a low-paying job. Sometimes the poor people can't get jobs. It is not that they are lazy. Not that some aren't. I am not saying that some people are poor and are lazy. However, the stereotype is that all people who are poor are lazy and should get a job.

sure... but if they have to work 5 jobs to pay for themselves and their kids, then they shouldn't have had kids in the first place. their past choices forced them to live in their present lifestyle. be it keeping a child, be it smoking at 12 and dropping out of school, be it not reporting their parents for abuse. every person is responsible for themselves and their choices. so, if someone is living in the slums despite working multiple jobs, then its still their fault. i have no sympathy whatsoever.

PS - i know its a double post, but i just saw flypie's... and this post is completely seperate from the previous one.

[GuidoHunter]

I've gotta agree with Drac here. Despite how economics views volunteering and giving in general, the fact that you will succeed if you help people is a societal rule. It really does work that way.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[flypie743]

What if they don't have kids, but still have trouble paying for their life. Maybe they grew up in with parents who lived in a slummy neighborhood and they were poor from the start. Their parents being poor isn't necissarily their fault.

[Enigma-7]

It's not always donating that helps you be remembered. For example: Beethoven. Did he donate? I don't think so. Is he remembered? Damn right!
My point is, not donating, but contributing to the lives of others helps. Not always in donation, but as a stress reliever, among other things.
And af course, without Beethoven, We'd never have the great song Beethoven Virus in FFR.
It's not always donating money, or doing labor for others, though thats a good part of it. Contributing to the comminity in any way gets you +Heaven pts., and Karma (Mentioned before)
You don't have to contribute 10k to the orphanage and then have them build a statue to be honored and remembered.