The Death Penalty

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

I guess you never studied Code of Hammurabi.

Because if I kill your child, killing my child is fitting punishment? But my child is innocent of any wrongdoing, which means that a fitting punishment for you is to kill -your- child. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

excuse me devonin, but I believe this in not an appropiate post to Critical Thinking, please remove it immediately 8(

Actually it is a perfectly appropriate thing to post in CT. I was taking rzr's standpoint and carrying it out to its inevitable conclusion in order to demonstrate that he was advocating a course of action with very serious implications that he didn't seem to have considered.

[Zythus]

Re: The Death Penalty

I believe we all have to go to prison now as a precaution, seeing how we all have the potential to kill.

[omgitznpv]

Re: The Death Penalty

Some of the pointless posts in this thread disgust me.

The death penalty is not exactly something that's effective. Like previously stated, having one innocent man being put to death is much worse than guilty people being left out there. That one person obtained something they did not deserve; this is not the goal of the system, and therefore, it is tremendously flawed. Actually, a high enough percentage of the criminals on death row are innocent. Think about all of that. I mean, seriously, I think being on death row is bad enough because one would be sitting there, knowing the exact date of their death- and they can't help it.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

If such a large percent of criminals on death row are innocent, they wouldn't be on death row.

But yeah, it does suck that one innocent person dies when they never did any crime. But it's even worse when someone who did do something escapes because they were not killed and does more damage and destruction.


On another note, I agree, npv, some posts here are retarded. Seriously, people, feel free to vote but if you have nothing to contribute this is not the forum for you. Nor the site really...

[Zythus]

Re: The Death Penalty

Rzr, read, please. More than one person responded to the "Kill the innocent rather than let one guilty go."

We may convict anyone on death row to be guilty, but we do not have the full evidence to say 100% guilty. Reason being, were weren't involved in the event. They are tagged as guilty enough to deserve penalty because we deem them as so with the obvious evidence present, not full evidence present.

Putting it bluntly, I find that your arguments are quite the joke with absolutely no thought about the consequences of your position. I would beg to differ that this thread is a ground for "Serious Posts Only."

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

There's no need to defend your inadequate post, and that one alone was pointless.

See, the way to defend a pro-death penalty point is generally only through an example;

Person x is a child. Person x is 16. Person x kills his parents then progresses to kill 854 students and faculty at his school. Person x is said to be mentally unstable and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility. Person x spends 15 years there. Person x escapes. Person x is at a gas station. Person x kills the cashier. Person x kills 6 people in the gas station. Person x kills 46 more people before jumping off a building. That's one scenario

Another one would be this:

Person t kills 84 people in a gang fight. Person t is let off because there is no evidence. Person t re-joins th gang. Person t and person e kill 4574 more people by bombing a... [insert largely crowded area here].

In both cases had they killed the offender there would have been NO more deaths. But they didn't. So there were.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

It is better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent be be made to suffer wrongfully.

This is an easy question with an easy answer: There is no 100% absolutely objectively correct way to prove someone's guilt short of a direct and explicit confession. Unless offered, there should never be even the consideration of the death penalty.

True, we weren't there and do not have all of the facts. But that is why there are unbiased juries to take the factual evidence we do have and come to a rational conclusion. The best solution to a he-said she-said scenario is to simply get ALL of the conceivable facts then combine them with the hersay etc, and come to a logical conclusion and eventatally reach an acceptable punishment.

For an example both you and I can relate to, use my TWG ban. There was absolutely no physical proof that I hacked any account. But because I could have I still got banned. See, there was enough evidence to say "it could have happened, so let's still punish him."

[Zythus]

Re: The Death Penalty

Oh was it inadequate? Just a little summary of your arguments.

Person x is a child. Person x is 16. When person Y rampaged Person X's house, Person X grabbed the gun from person Y's hand and braced himself to shoot, but person Y stabbed himself and died. Person Y kills 854 students and faculty at his school before coming to kill Person X's parents. Person x was convicted due to the gun in his hand is said to be mentally unstable and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility. Person x spends 15 years there, until finally court sentenced a death penalty.

Deemed fair by you? One as the authority only engages solving with the obvious evidence. Authorities wasn't there. Authorities didn't know. I believe this also concludes this thread, none of us makes the dominate point to what is controversial, not to mention a meaningless topic with no definable conclusion.

And no Rzr, an administrator or moderator can by all rights track your IP address and refrain from having it disclosed to you. The hacked account had the same IP access in history as you on the same day it was hacked? bingo.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

Something tells me people would recognize the difference between x and y when y killed 854 people at a school and x wasn't there because he was at home.

And zythus, this is CT. I'm not going to personally argue with you. If you disagree with a thread, state your opinion maturely and stop posting. That's not very hard to do, especially if you want to be taken seriously. If you have a conflict with me, feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to clear things up.

[Zythus]

Re: The Death Penalty

Quite, but know that you do not have any position to say:

"On another note, I agree, npv, some posts here are retarded. Seriously, people, feel free to vote but if you have nothing to contribute this is not the forum for you. Nor the site really... "

Your authority is unfounded, and frankly, from your arguments of repetition, assumption, with no evidence, you don't differ much from the "retarded" posts in this thread, and I am not the only person who thinks that. So get your head down from the clouds, because you do not own CT nor FFR, so quit acting like it. You can PM and rant at me, but my point is clear.

Anyhow, again with assumption. We are hypothetically speaking is it not? like mentioned in the OP. And this is why there is no definable conclusion, because judgment varies with person, and a situation can not be fully understood and relived by a 3rd party, ever.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

*rolls eyes* read the rules.
I think I will refrain from posting until devonin can come talk some sense into this thread. Again, you're contributing absolutely nothing to the thread except non-constructive criticism that defies the rules of this forum.

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

Okay, where to begin. I'll start with content related posts, then *gasp* double post if I have to, to address the name-calling and idiocy.

If you kill my child, I want your child to die as well, so you can go through the same pain as I bear. It's the ultimate form of fairness.

One: It is never right to harm the innocent even out of revenge for someone else harming the innocent. If you seriously think you are capable of supporting the murder of an innocent child out of a sense of "justice" for the death of another child, I think you need to seriously consider your priorities. Two: If I'm the kind of person who can murder children, chances are very good that I'm not exactly attached to my children, so killing them probably won't bother me overmuch. Certainly not as much as it effected you if it hurt you so badly that you were prepared to murder innocents for revenge...er...justice.

don't give me that man- don't wanna hear it 8(

I'm sorry you don't want to hear about a perfectly logical and useful arguementative tactic. if you suggest a point is good, and I can show you how that point can be applied in a way that is bad, it calls into question the validity of your point. That's just logic, I'm sorry you didn't care for the example.

If such a large percent of criminals on death row are innocent, they wouldn't be on death row.

Even if the vast majority are guilty, there is still a chance, proven to occur frighteningly often, that people on death row are innocent. As such, I can't in good conscience agree to execute them because there isn't sufficient proof of their guilt.

But yeah, it does suck that one innocent person dies when they never did any crime. But it's even worse when someone who did do something escapes because they were not killed and does more damage and destruction.

I have a harder time dealing with the idea that I would convict and execute an innocent than I do the idea that a guilty person might somehow escape from prison and continue to commit crimes like that. The fault there is with the justice system failing to do its job by only releasing criminals who have been rehabilitated. It does not lie with an insufficience of executions. Further, states with the death penalty show no reduction whatsoever in the instance of violent crime of that magnitude. Texas doesn't have the fewest murders per capita despite having the largest instance of the death penalty per capita. It clearly isn't a deterrant to other criminals, so how is there a purpose to it?

In both cases had they killed the offender there would have been NO more deaths. But they didn't. So there were.

In your first case, the fault lies in insufficient security in the mental facility, not a problem with there being no death penalty. If they had managed their guest properly there would have been no death. In the second case, hyperbole isn't your friend. I deny that someone could be brought up on 84 charges of murder with inufficient evidence to get a conviction. Had you picked a more realistic number, I'd have said that if there wasn't sufficient evidence to convict, then no, they should certainly go free. If there wasn't enough evidence to convict they ABSOLUTELY shouldn't be KILLED. There's a reason capital crimes have a larger burden of proof. You have to be pretty sure you've got the right person to try and have them killed. The fact that even with those standards, innocents are executed or sentenced to death just drives home the problems with the death penalty.

See, there was enough evidence to say "it could have happened, so let's still punish him."

But your analogy says "It could have happened, so lets ban him from TWG forever, with no exceptions or chance to prove he's learned from his mistake" Death Penalty is to Permaban, not one-game ban. They said "We have enough evidence to suspect his guilt, so we're only giving him a short sentence"

[devonin]

Re: The Death Penalty

Gasp! Moderator Double Post!

This is surprisingly short and easy. RZR stop minimodding. You aren't a moderator, you aren't a supermoderator, you aren't an administrator. I read this forum religiously, if someone is doing something improper in these forums I will see it, and I will tell them. At absolute most, report posts or contact me via private message. You have no business telling other users what they are or aren't doing correctly.

Zythus' criticism was perfectly valid, and delivered in a perfectly okay manner for this forum. You hadn't addressed an objection others raised, and were simply reminded of it. I would criticize Zythus for bringing up a personal issue like your TGB ban in a discussion that had nothing to do with it, but you brought it up yourself.

Zythus, you did cross a line there in your last post, making a blatant personal attack on RZR and implying (fun for the topic: with no evidence) that "a bunch of people" have a problem with him. He's correct to say that if you have an issue with -him- to take it up in private and not air dirty laundry in the forum.

But rzr, please don't try to do my job for me. Zythus was contributing, Zythus was making criticisms that -were- valid and -were- in line with forum rules. It was only after you started being hostile that he crossed over into hostility himself. You both need to either deal with your crap in private, or stop posting in this forum.

[Zythus]

Re: The Death Penalty

I apologize, I did step too far. Rzr would like to apologize too.
We disscussed our differences and came to a truce, and we hope to abide by it.
I apologize to both Rzr for the sniping and Devonin for disrupting his religiously guarded fourms XD.

We hope this won't happen again.

[rzr]

Re: The Death Penalty

I apologize, I did step too far. Rzr would like to apologize too.
We disscussed our differences and came to a truce, and we hope to abide by it.
I apologize to both Rzr for the sniping and Devonin for disrupting his religiously guarded fourms XD.

We hope this won't happen again.

Agreed, I PMd him last night and we resolved everything. Sorry for the disturbance in the force =p

Back to the subject at hand...