Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

ok let me ask you something.... do you play without items and in simple stages??? and if so do you still consider yourself the best??? and also do you know that even in 4V4 battles the game is pretty much random?

I don't consider myself the best out of any setting.

[Matthew4444]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Modes aren't practice...and hell no I'm not trying to get the "most" out of the game. I'm trying to be better at it than everyone that plays it so I NEVER lose.

This guy needs to calm down!


You know, not everyone plays for the sole purpose of trying to prove something. Most people play to have fun, win or lose. If two people are on a level in which they must use advanced techniques to compete with each other, well then they might very well find that fun. If an expert is against a bunch of lesser players, restrictions add challenge, and challenge often adds to the fun of it.

Really, playing purely for the rush of competition is more like training and competing than having actual fun.

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

This guy needs to calm down!


You know, not everyone plays for the sole purpose of trying to prove something. Most people play to have fun, win or lose. If two people are on a level in which they must use advanced techniques to compete with each other, well then they might very well find that fun. If an expert is against a bunch of lesser players, restrictions add challenge, and challenge often adds to the fun of it.

Really, playing purely for the rush of competition is more like training and competing than having actual fun.

I LOVE competition like its a drug. What can I say.

When I use to play starcraft competitively and I lose to someone worse than me. I seriously would get so worked up that I would dream of it and just think of all the things I did wrong. I love to compete and I love to win.

[Squeek]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever punched someone in the face, then taunted them for not knowing how to guard their face?

That's using a technique against people who don't know how to do them, isn't it?

That's what it feels like when someone uses a technique that verges on the edge of cheating in order to improve their game, whether it be a video game or a sport. That's also a technique that is totally acceptable in one practice and totally unacceptable in another. If you were a professional boxer, for example, punching your opponent in the face during a match is not only allowed, it's necessary.

This is the distinction I'm trying to make here! I don't think it's an acceptable practice to utilize glitches in a non-competitive environment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go ahead and use your glitches. Use them all day long. I do not care. Just don't do it against random people. You'll just be punching them in the face for no reason. What's the point of using a glitch against someone who doesn't know how to use it? To win? Why do you care if you win or not against someone you'll never even know? Random Brawl matches are 100% anonymous. All you're doing by using glitches in Brawl is boosting your own ego.

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Hell no.

I'm not looking down on your playstyle. I am just saying, don't do it against random people. I've seen what exploiting glitches in mainstream games can do for the game. Have you heard of how many people absolutely refuse to play Mario Kart DS online because of the snakers? I can give you a list of thousands.

I don't mind if you exploit glitches at home, at a friend's house, online with friends, at competitions, etc. Go right ahead. I realize that as a result of this (and other things like keeping items off, but that's a horse that's been dead for ages now), I will never be able to compete in Brawl. And I'm fine with that. I've established that my playstyle prohibits me from playing this game competitively.

A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game

There are more demographics in the gaming industry than just "those who play to win, no matter what" and "those who play to have fun". In fact, since I'm neither of those, I'm either an anomaly or someone you just didn't think about. It's the latter. I'm a gamer. There are millions of people out there just like me. People who don't race to see who can beat a game first and people who don't play for 10 minutes at a time. Gamers.

Don't ever call me a casual gamer again. Yes, I do play Minesweeper, and I sure as hell guarantee my times are better than yours. That's one game I actually do play competitively in, albeit only in my small group of friends. I still have the best posted time on FFR from what I remember. 142 on Expert. Good luck.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You totally missed my analogy. Practicing the sport in your backyard isn't competitive playing! Playing against random people in a match IS competitive playing. See my boxing analogy above.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

Sakurai is endorsing all play. If you get your kicks out of winning in a match and giving your opponent no chance to even compete, like snakers in Mario Kart DS, then please, inflate your ego. Just so you know, Mario Kart DS has turned from "who knows how to pick up items, throw them at the right time, and retain a lead" to "who can press LRLRLR while holding the shoulder buttons faster than the other guy" In a match with 7 normal racers and one snaker, the snaker will always win. ALWAYS. You could throw lightning, blue shells, whatever. The snaker doesn't even have to pick up items, which is the core gameplay element of the game. He'll always win.

I'll admit right now that I know practically nothing about wavedashing. It's something that enables you to move faster. That's all I know. Which makes it pretty much exactly the same as snaking, just in a different context. In item matches, whoever can run to the item the fastest will get it and have the upper hand. In close-combat, whoever can quickly get in and out of the frey will have the upper hand. In a big stage, whoever can get from one side to the other in order to finish off an opponent will have the upper hand. What wavedashing does is nullify some of the character balance that existed in the original game. Let's say every character has 10 points to spend in various stats similar to the 5 points in Mario Kart. Bowser has about 9 in Power, but only 1 in Speed. With wavedashing, that Power doesn't drop, but speed increases. This shifts the balance. Suddenly a character with 1 in Power and 9 in Speed is useless. Other classes can match his speed and even overtake it. You've exceeded the scale of 10. To me, that's a big enough glitch to warrant a cause for removal. And hey, as it turns out, Sakurai and his team actually DID remove wavedashing. Probably for exactly the same reasons I just said!

Squeek's bottom line:

I would absolutely love to play this game with anyone on this website who posts on the forums. I would absolutely hate to turn it into a contest. Worse, a contest to see who can mash certain button combinations to slightly improve the performance they get from their character to gain a competitive edge against people who really don't care to whittle down the skin on their thumbs just to move 1/100th of a second faster.

NOT Casual. NOT Competitive. Just Gaming.

[Matthew4444]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Well actually, it seems to be more the fast characters that get faster from wavedashing. But anyways, I seem to recall it being used more for mindgames and screwing with your opponent. Which, of course, isn't something you should be doing against someone who has no idea what they are doing, unless you are trying to get them to play at your level.

You know, I never really thought about it before: if you use techniques that are slightly more advanced than what your opponent that you may play often (say, a friend), wouldn't you be essentially training them?

[Squeek]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

You know, I never really thought about it before: if you use techniques that are slightly more advanced than what your opponent that you may play often (say, a friend), wouldn't you be essentially training them?

Only if they care to learn.

If you're teaching me button combinations in Soul Calibur to make me do certain moves and combos, I'm all ears. If you're teaching me how to repeatedly press seven buttons in order at a specific time in order to move slightly faster, I couldn't care less.

So far, nothing has proven to me that I need to utilize wavedashing to beat another human player at this game.

[macgravel]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Squeek - 5
Random kids on FFR - 0

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Only if they care to learn.

If you're teaching me button combinations in Soul Calibur to make me do certain moves and combos, I'm all ears. If you're teaching me how to repeatedly press seven buttons in order at a specific time in order to move slightly faster, I couldn't care less.

So far, nothing has proven to me that I need to utilize wavedashing to beat another human player at this game.

"So far, nothing has proven to me that I need to utilize wavedashing to beat another human player at this game."

Then it shouldn't matter in a random game. Also if you do not want to get punched in the face don't enter into a fight and if you enter into a fight expect to be punched in the face.

[Squeek]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Once again. Dear god. You completely miss my analogies.

The point is you just walk up to some random person (this is a metaphor for random online matches!) and you punch them in the face (this is a metaphor for utilizing glitches!), then walk away (this is a metaphor for the fact that you will never, EVER see the random person you were playing with!).

Until 2007, I never knew anything about competitive melee. I had no idea there was an item ban, I had no idea people used glitches, etc. Had I never learned, it would've been the same as punching me in the face with it the first time we played.

[Loyal2Death]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Squeek, upon hearing everything you've said, it is almost a shame to me that we somehow couldn't get voice support and play online. That being said, I'm hoping this thread can also become an area to allow everyone to add one another and play online.

I've sat back and read these last few pages to hear some valid points. I get the whole competitive edge idea, but look. I've played a couple really good people, and some of the best I've played in a long time. Whether they use Wave-Dashing or not, it doesn't make a difference-

Why?

Simple, in order for me to effectively beat a player (if I'm playing competitively) it is almost required that I lose sometimes to see effectively what that player is doing. Eventually, after a couple of games I can counter that players play style, and the advantage is for naught.

Here is what wavedashing does: it adds another combination of things I have to account for when battling an opponent, and no matter how much any of you defend it, its an unfair advantage. The argument you will give me back is that "So and so can use wave dash against me as well, its not unfair!" It's plenty unfair. My retort (Normally) to that would be simply that it generates a whole field advantage for someone who can use it effectively. Now hear me out, what I just said proves a your point. It creates that competitive edge, but that competitive edge is just as effective as an "Outsiders" fight. If someone brings a gun to a fist fight, obviously the person with the gun has the same objective as everyone else with fists but the man holding the gun is the one with the advantage. Now... everyone could bring a gun but then its no longer a fist fight, it becomes a "who can use their advantage better than the other" which totally totally ruins the initial premise of the game.

Competitive play is separate from all of the rest of Melee for a number of reasons, but to be good competitively, you must learn to wavedash. Coincidentally, to do that you also must learn a glitch never intended for the game and now Melee is no longer a melee, its a "Who screws up their glitch exploitation first".

Can I wavedash? Yeah. Do I? Occasionally. Do I do it competitively? Only if I have to really, I'd rather not. I personally think I've perfected my type of gameplay for what I do as Marth. On his own Marth is fast enough and just strong enough to suit my minds way of playing the game the way its intended and the only reason I do wave dash is to close the gap of ability between players.

Edit: I'm also known for having a hell of a good time in the strangest of situations. I.E I don't like to play so many "serious games" in a row. Instead I love being Captain Falcon, or Jigglypuff and throw Knees and falcon punches or try to rest every one of my KOs. That adds a fun element to the game, especially wen everyone is high and/or drunk and starts shouting the move out loud to add to the hilarity of a 4 on 4 captain falcon brawl where the rules are "Only knees and falcon punches allowed".

[Gano]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

I really like the sites new page layout, and the warning when there are >:O SPOILARS.
ps NEEEEEEESS
I am going to PK Starstorm you all to hell.

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Squeek, upon hearing everything you've said, it is almost a shame to me that we somehow couldn't get voice support and play online. That being said, I'm hoping this thread can also become an area to allow everyone to add one another and play online.

I've sat back and read these last few pages to hear some valid points. I get the whole competitive edge idea, but look. I've played a couple really good people, and some of the best I've played in a long time. Whether they use Wave-Dashing or not, it doesn't make a difference-

Why?

Simple, in order for me to effectively beat a player (if I'm playing competitively) it is almost required that I lose sometimes to see effectively what that player is doing. Eventually, after a couple of games I can counter that players play style, and the advantage is for naught.

Here is what wavedashing does: it adds another combination of things I have to account for when battling an opponent, and no matter how much any of you defend it, its an unfair advantage. The argument you will give me back is that "So and so can use wave dash against me as well, its not unfair!" It's plenty unfair. My retort (Normally) to that would be simply that it generates a whole field advantage for someone who can use it effectively. Now hear me out, what I just said proves a your point. It creates that competitive edge, but that competitive edge is just as effective as an "Outsiders" fight. If someone brings a gun to a fist fight, obviously the person with the gun has the same objective as everyone else with fists but the man holding the gun is the one with the advantage. Now... everyone could bring a gun but then its no longer a fist fight, it becomes a "who can use their advantage better than the other" which totally totally ruins the initial premise of the game.

Competitive play is separate from all of the rest of Melee for a number of reasons, but to be good competitively, you must learn to wavedash. Coincidentally, to do that you also must learn a glitch never intended for the game and now Melee is no longer a melee, its a "Who screws up their glitch exploitation first".

Can I wavedash? Yeah. Do I? Occasionally. Do I do it competitively? Only if I have to really, I'd rather not. I personally think I've perfected my type of gameplay for what I do as Marth. On his own Marth is fast enough and just strong enough to suit my minds way of playing the game the way its intended and the only reason I do wave dash is to close the gap of ability between players.

Edit: I'm also known for having a hell of a good time in the strangest of situations. I.E I don't like to play so many "serious games" in a row. Instead I love being Captain Falcon, or Jigglypuff and throw Knees and falcon punches or try to rest every one of my KOs. That adds a fun element to the game, especially wen everyone is high and/or drunk and starts shouting the move out loud to add to the hilarity of a 4 on 4 captain falcon brawl where the rules are "Only knees and falcon punches allowed".

I agree with you that it does provide you with an advantage over the people who do not do it. I didn't even know about it until I met my friends at school who played competitively. So what did I do? I learned how to do it and I practiced it so that I can use it effectively. I didn't whine about it.

[chemicalrabbit]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Calm down everyone. Most competitive players can pwn noobs without advance techniques anyway.

What the point of sucking on purpose so the noob you're playing can have fun? Well, let me tell you this:

winning is fun


BTW, SQUEEK, JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE CAN WAVEDASH or L-CANCEL DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE GOOD.

Once again. Dear god. You completely miss my analogies.

It's because they suck.

l2awr, going to Pound 3?

[l2awr]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Calm down. Most competitive players can pwn noobs without advance techniques anyway.

Obviously.

Does anyone else think that Brawl will be an extremely slow pace game? It looks way too floaty to me

[chemicalrabbit]

Re: Super Smash Brothers Brawl

Obviously.

Does anyone else think that Brawl will be an extremely slow pace game? It looks way too floaty to me

Nah it's not that slow.

Squeek - 5
Random kids on FFR - 0

You obviously didn't read through this thread.

Until 2007, I never knew anything about competitive melee. I had no idea there was an item ban, I had no idea people used glitches, etc. Had I never learned, it would've been the same as punching me in the face with it the first time we played.

Work on your analogies. >_>