My life is a lie, and so is yours.

[N.T.M.]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

And if you had two people who were EXACTLY the same (same makeup including brain, DNA, etc. and upbringing, to the point of being completely and totally identical), yes, they would respond the same way in any situation. Why? Because they're EXACTLY THE SAME in every conceivable way.

This' where you're incorrect. One's decisions IS NOT predetermined. It's called choice.

Our choices are not simply the product of circumstance, etc.

That's my point.

[Relambrien]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Actually, if they were -EXACTLY- the same, then they would make the same decisions. If they didn't, then they aren't exactly the same.

Note that two people being exactly the same is more or less impossible naturally, so the whole thing is irrelevant to reality anyway. However, I believe that eventually, provided enough information about the person, psychologists will be able to tell you which sort of actions you could be predisposed to take, but nothing specific. Only general things like "You probably choose to avoid conflict than to involve yourself in it." They can already pretty much, but only through analysis of behavior rather than of the brain. I think we'll eventually learn enough about the brain to make these same conclusions without having to do behavioral analysis. This avoids the pitfall of people not accurately conveying their situations to their psychologists.

Seriously though, I think that's as far as we'll be able to get in terms of "reading minds" for a long while.

[arsonistsgetallthegirls]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

This' where you're incorrect. One's decisions IS NOT predetermined. It's called choice.

Our choices are not simply the product of circumstance, etc.

That's my point.

Unless you tie a sort of non-religious predestination into the whole ordeal, then whatever choice you make will be predetermined based on your desires.

Even if you change your mind at the last second, it was meant to be that way.
This sort of relates back to my previous post...

Edit: For instance, even if you desire one candy but choose the other on a whim, your desire to second-guess yourself reigned dominant.
Edit 2: actually, it's very difficult to determine the desire that controls your without knowing the circumstances, but just try to understand my point. Everyone is controlled by wants, needs, ect, and it's our genetics that make us this way.

[N.T.M.]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Actually, if they were -EXACTLY- the same, then they would make the same decisions. If they didn't, then they aren't exactly the same.

Note that two people being exactly the same is more or less impossible naturally, so the whole thing is irrelevant to reality anyway. However, I believe that eventually, provided enough information about the person, psychologists will be able to tell you which sort of actions you could be predisposed to take, but nothing specific. Only general things like "You probably choose to avoid conflict than to involve yourself in it." They can already pretty much, but only through analysis of behavior rather than of the brain. I think we'll eventually learn enough about the brain to make these same conclusions without having to do behavioral analysis. This avoids the pitfall of people not accurately conveying their situations to their psychologists.

Seriously though, I think that's as far as we'll be able to get in terms of "reading minds" for a long while.

Of course this concept cannot be applied to reality. It's just a hypothetical scenario used to illustrate a concept. Logically speaking I can completely see your point. My argument is that there's another factor that cannot just be plugged into the equation so easily. A far more profound factor, being God. He allows you to make your own choices. And those choices are not just the product of age and genetic makeup, etc. Sure they may influence your decision, but they do not control them. Your reactions are not predetermined.

Now I'm sure this' where my argument will end, as most of you (if not all) believe that choice is merely an illusion. You do not believe in an all-powerfull Creator.

[Tokzic]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Of course this concept cannot be applied to reality. It's just a hypothetical scenario used to illustrate a concept. Logically speaking I can completely see your point. My argument is that there's another factor that cannot just be plugged into the equation so easily. A far more profound factor, being God. He allows you to make your own choices. And those choices are not just the product of age and genetic makeup, etc. Sure they may influence your decision, but they do not control them. Your reactions are not predetermined.

Now I'm sure this' where my argument will end, as most of you (if not all) believe that choice is merely an illusion. You do not believe in an all-powerfull Creator.

The possibility of a God doesn't invalidate this line of thinking. It actually has very little to do with it. How does the fact that our universe was made by an omnipotent being affect choice? Assuming one exists, how does its existence magically change the circumstances of desire?

[devonin]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

The idea that connects God to determinism is the idea that God is all knowing in addition to being all powerful. (Of course omnipotence is logically impossible, and even if it were possible, is mutually exclusive to omniscience)

Thus, since God ostensibly knows exactly what you are going to do at every instant, and why, and cannot ever be wrong, you can argue that you do not possess free will, since from God's perspective at least, every possible choice has already been made and is set in stone, and nothing you could do could allow you to deviate from that path.

[N.T.M.]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

The idea that connects God to determinism is the idea that God is all knowing in addition to being all powerful. (Of course omnipotence is logically impossible, and even if it were possible, is mutually exclusive to omniscience)

Thus, since God ostensibly knows exactly what you are going to do at every instant, and why, and cannot ever be wrong, you can argue that you do not possess free will, since from God's perspective at least, every possible choice has already been made and is set in stone, and nothing you could do could allow you to deviate from that path.

I must disagree with you there. Although he is all-knowing (thus already knows your choices before you make them), he still gives you complete free will. It's a perspective matter: even though he knows exactly what the future holds, as it's being written he does not interfere. Although he'd know about a decision a person hasn't yet made, it was (will be) solely that person's choice.

The possibility of a God doesn't invalidate this line of thinking. It actually has very little to do with it. How does the fact that our universe was made by an omnipotent being affect choice? Assuming one exists, how does its existence magically change the circumstances of desire?

Including God in the equation is completely relevent. His existence would include that each person has a soul and their path in life is, in fact, not just a product of circumstance and genetic makeup, etc. That they each have complete free will and nothing is predetermined.

[devonin]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

I must disagree with you there. Although he is all-knowing (thus already knows your choices before you make them), he still gives you complete free will. It's a perspective matter: even though he knows exactly what the future holds, as it's being written he does not interfere. Although he'd know about a decision a person hasn't yet made, it was (will be) solely that person's choice.

Three days from now, you're going to wake up at 3:50am because a car alarm is going off next to your house. You will be unable to get back to sleep, and in order to try and do so, you will listen to a piece of music you've never heard before, and it will change your entire life. It will strike such a deep chord within you that you will decide to dedicate your entire life to the persuit of beautiful music.

If I know that infallibly, with 100% certainty right this minute, and absolutely nothing anyone or any thing does or tries to do can possibly modify this outcome, how is that kind of certainty compatible with free will?

You'll have the -impression- of making free choices as you go, but it will be an illusion because the outcome of every "free" choice you're going to make is already known to me.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

(Of course omnipotence is logically impossible, and even if it were possible, is mutually exclusive to omniscience)

Explain.

Also Lorenz transformations and the theodicy of free will.

[N.T.M.]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Three days from now, you're going to wake up at 3:50am because a car alarm is going off next to your house. You will be unable to get back to sleep, and in order to try and do so, you will listen to a piece of music you've never heard before, and it will change your entire life. It will strike such a deep chord within you that you will decide to dedicate your entire life to the persuit of beautiful music.

If I know that infallibly, with 100% certainty right this minute, and absolutely nothing anyone or any thing does or tries to do can possibly modify this outcome, how is that kind of certainty compatible with free will?

You'll have the -impression- of making free choices as you go, but it will be an illusion because the outcome of every "free" choice you're going to make is already known to me.

Like I said before, it's a perspective matter. Although he knows your choices before you make them, they still are your choices, and only you made them. He knows the future because he is all-knowing, not because he molds life into it. His knowledge is like stepping forward in time: you could see things that haven't yet happened, however, seeing had no part in them unfolding like they did.

[edubardus]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Like I said before, it's a perspective matter. Although he knows your choices before you make them, they still are your choices, and only you made them. He knows the future because he is all-knowing, not because he molds life into it. His knowledge is like stepping forward in time: you could see things that haven't yet happened, however, seeing had no part in them unfolding like they did.

Too bad the perspective you're taking is erroneous. Like devonin mentioned, it isn't possible for your supposed free will to coexist along with someone's knowledge of your future.

You counterclaimed yourself when you argued that the future is being written as we partake in our daily routines and undertakings, and that God, being all-knowing, is aware of what choices we'll be making 3 days from today. The future is already written under your set of beliefs. If God knows what will happen in the future there shouldn't be any 'writing' going on at all, thus the free will you claim to have is merely an illusion created by your perspectives, just like devonin stated.

[N.T.M.]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Too bad the perspective you're taking is erroneous. Like devonin mentioned, it isn't possible for your supposed free will to coexist along with someone's knowledge of your future.

You counterclaimed yourself when you argued that the future is being written as we partake in our daily routines and undertakings, and that God, being all-knowing, is aware of what choices we'll be making 3 days from today. The future is already written under your set of beliefs. If God knows what will happen in the future there shouldn't be any 'writing' going on at all, thus the free will you claim to have is merely an illusion created by your perspectives, just like devonin stated.

I could say the same regarding your perspective. Really such a simple concept must be a lot more difficult to grasp than I initially thought. I didn't contradict myself. I simply said that God knows how the future is going to be written, but the people are still the ones responsible for it. He does not interfere on any level with one's free will. It is not an illusion. It's a person's own completely free will.

[devonin]

Re: My life is a lie, and so is yours.

Explain.

Omnipotence is inherantly impossible, since your choice of paradoxical questions are all perfectly able to demonstrate at least one thing such a being claiming omnipotence could not do. Whether it is making a rock so heavy they can't lift, or any such thing like that or even just "Can you do something paradoxical" or "Can you do something impossible" serve to make a claim on total and full omnipotence not work.

Granted, extremely powerful things can absolutely exist, and even things so powerful that you might as well call them omnipotent, the literal meaning of the word doesn't parse onto a concept that is usable.

The trick of omniscience then, is that you have a complete and perfect knowledge of absolutely everything it is possible to know. This seems to me to be incompatible with omnipotence, because if there is nothing you are incapable of doing, then one of the things you can do is have something unpredictable occur, but since you know everything there is to know about everything, nothing is unpredictable for you, because you are already aware of it.