Premaritial Sex

[User6773]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Since we're dealing with a scenario involving great communication between the spouses, "they can't communicate X to each other" is not an appropriate counter-argument, for any X.

[devonin]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Why not? Unless by "great" communiction you are instead wanting to say "Perfect and complete" communication.

[User6773]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Why not? Unless by "great" communiction you are instead wanting to say "Perfect and complete" communication.

I don't know what your definition of "great communication" is, but if you're actively lying to or deceiving the other person, you don't have great communication.

[imahyperpigeon]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Errr...religion aside...

I think it's better to wait. It shows that you respect yourself...and your partner. It also would be more special to wait instead of just giving it up for fun. Self dicipline and respect are hard to come by now, and I think it may be what corrupts society to some extent. Society is based on pleasure alone now, and whats that going to get us? If you cant control yourself with sex, how can people control themselves with other important things?

[Relambrien]

Re: Premaritial Sex

I don't know what your definition of "great communication" is, but if you're actively lying to or deceiving the other person, you don't have great communication.

Which means your definition of "great" communication is, as devonin said, "perfect and complete" communication. Since after all, you're saying that any lies or deceit results in your definition not fitting. It seems to me that this means the only thing that fulfills your definition is total truth, 100% of the time, hiding nothing (since hiding something would be deceitful, according to you).

[Cavernio]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Chardish: In response to evolutionary aspects of orgasm, you say it makes sense for a woman to be able to climax during intercourse. However, not climaxing during intercourse could also be evolutionarily adaptive. 1 stint of intercourse doesn't always result in pregnancy, and so it would be adaptive for a woman to remain aroused so she'll have more intercourse, with either the same partner or another one.
Of course, all this could simply be a by-product of the placement of the primary pleasure point on women being outside the body, where it is NOT stimulated much during intercourse, or it could be the other way 'round.
Evolutionarily speaking, you can hypothesize things like saying genocide is evolutionarily adaptive.

Which is the stronger pull on someone then? "This doesn't do it for me, I'd rather say so, so we can do something that does" or "I don't want to upset them by implying that they don't know what I like"

I think we've found that that depends on the person.

[User6773]

Re: Premaritial Sex

nitpicking

You can tell the truth 100% of the time and still not have perfect communication if you're saying what you mean but saying it in a way that the other person can't understand, or you're (unintentionally) not saying all of what you mean, etc. You don't even have great communication if you feel like there's things you can't talk about. But I don't think that's really what's being debated here - or really what should be debated in here.

It is absurd and indefensible to say "Oh, we have great communication, we just routinely deceive one another in our most intimate moments." It's silly that you (and others) are obsessing over this point instead of actually dealing with the ramifications of what people like myself and Guido have said in earlier points.

[Relambrien]

Re: Premaritial Sex

You can tell the truth 100% of the time and still not have perfect communication if you're saying what you mean but saying it in a way that the other person can't understand, or you're (unintentionally) not saying all of what you mean, etc. You don't even have great communication if you feel like there's things you can't talk about. But I don't think that's really what's being debated here - or really what should be debated in here.

It is absurd and indefensible to say "Oh, we have great communication, we just routinely deceive one another in our most intimate moments." It's silly that you (and others) are obsessing over this point instead of actually dealing with the ramifications of what people like myself and Guido have said in earlier points.

I'm really not trying to debate for myself, since being only 15, I don't feel I can say much more than anything I've already said (if I've said anything at all). I'm merely trying to point out things and attempt to clarify things so as to help others debate.

If you'd rather I just leave the debate to its course, then I can do that, too.

[Cavernio]

Re: Premaritial Sex

Waiting to have sex until you're married, although incredibly and undeniably romantic and utopian, seems silly because love, marriage, and sexual desire don't necessarily co-exist, despite the best of efforts sometimes. It seems like you're waiting for perfection, yet perfection, when you wait and expect it in such a precise way, never exists.

As an aside, Chrissi, I think you and I are very similar in that it's incredibly hard for someone else to get me to orgasm. I can only orgasm with clitoral stimulation, however, I've had what I could call largely vaginal orgasms, but they're just not the same purely clitoral ones. There's release, but they're not as good, not as over-the-top pleasurable, and, I'm easily turned-on again with immediate vaginal stimulation. It's good because if I masturbate while having sex, and miraculously orgasm before my partner does, I still want to continue intercourse.

[devonin]

Re: Premaritial Sex

It's silly that you (and others) are obsessing over this point instead of actually dealing with the ramifications of what people like myself and Guido have said in earlier points.

I'm not sure what else to say to the ramifications of what you and Guido are talking about. Every precept that you've presented as being the best, or even the more desireable is not one I have ascribed to, and yet I have none of the issues or problems you suggest are inevitable from taking the courses of action that I have.

You're arguing from an ivory tower that living down in the village is no good. And while you might have an excellent view up there, and maybe even will have a nicer life in the long run, what we are getting at here is that you're talking about the dangers of village life to the villagers, having never actually gone down there for a look.

[toxicninja]

Re: Premaritial Sex

i found this interesting artical on wikipedia but i've heard things like it before that support my arguement of people cheating because they are bored sexually of each other:

Biological models of sex tend to view love as a mammalian drive,[citation needed] much like hunger or thirst. Helen Fisher, a leading expert in the topic of love, divides the experience of love into three partly-overlapping stages: lust, attraction, and attachment. Lust exposes people to others, romantic attraction encourages people to focus their energy on mating, and attachment involves tolerating the spouse long enough to rear a child into infancy.

Lust is the initial passionate sexual desire that promotes mating, and involves the increased release of chemicals such as testosterone and estrogen. These effects rarely last more than a few weeks or months. Attraction is the more individualized and romantic desire for a specific candidate for mating, which develops out of lust as commitment to an individual mate forms. Recent studies in neuroscience have indicated that as people fall in love, the brain consistently releases a certain set of chemicals, including pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, which act similar to amphetamines, stimulating the brain's pleasure center and leading to side-effects such as an increased heart rate, loss of appetite and sleep, and an intense feeling of excitement. Research has indicated that this stage generally lasts from one and a half to three years.

Since the lust and attraction stages are both considered temporary, a third stage is needed to account for long-term relationships. Attachment is the bonding which promotes relationships that last for many years, and even decades. Attachment is generally based on commitments such as marriage and children, or on mutual friendship based on things like shared interests. It has been linked to higher levels of the chemicals oxytocin and vasopressin than short-term relationships have.

[devonin]

Re: Premaritial Sex

As an additional aside, Chardish and Guido... Is your particular brand of abstinance simply that you will retain your virginity until you are married, or do you subscribe to the more orthodox and formal belief that in addition to waiting until marriage to start having sex, you will only engage in intercourse when you have the explicit plan and desire to concieve?

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Premaritial Sex

You're arguing from an ivory tower that living down in the village is no good. And while you might have an excellent view up there, and maybe even will have a nicer life in the long run, what we are getting at here is that you're talking about the dangers of village life to the villagers, having never actually gone down there for a look.

Actually, it took losing my virginity to truly appreciate abstinence.

As an additional aside, Chardish and Guido... Is your particular brand of abstinance simply that you will retain your virginity until you are married, or do you subscribe to the more orthodox and formal belief that in addition to waiting until marriage to start having sex, you will only engage in intercourse when you have the explicit plan and desire to concieve?

I feel the question is a bit misleading, so I'll hit a few points in trying to answer it.

If you mean, "only when you have the explicit plan and desire to conceive" like my great grandmother, who "had sex four times and had four kids", then no. I plan on having a whole lot more sex than that. If I do not want to conceive immediately, I'll be taking steps toward avoiding it (natural family planning), but refuse to engage in contraception.

So, to answer the literal question, no. To answer what I think you were trying to ask, yes. The act of intercourse is a reproductive one, and the chance of conception should always be recognized, but that's getting more into religious beliefs...

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Chrissi]

Re: Premaritial Sex

What I find really hard to buy about your idea that most women are unable to climax from intercourse are the evolutionary reasons behind orgasm. The biological purpose of intercourse is reproduction, which is one of the primary biological impetuses of all species. We are compelled to participate whether we want to or not. As such, it seems only natural that a pleasurable would be associated with it.

1. Sex can be extremely, exceedingly pleasurable, without orgasm.

2. It doesn't matter if you buy the idea or not - most women are unable to achieve orgasm through intercourse. It's a simple matter of physiology. The clitoris is not directly stimulated through intercourse. The clitoris is the major factor in orgasm; after all, it is analogous to the penis in terms of pleasure centres. Imagine having an orgasm without having your penis touched. Well, maybe I'm asking the wrong guy...

3. Biological sense or not, it still doesn't happen to most women. They need other stimulation to achieve orgasm. It doesn't mean that they don't enjoy sex. Speaking personally, I greatly enjoy sex but find it impossible to orgasm through intercourse alone. I require extra stimulation, usually administered by myself. Lots of women are like this.

[Cavernio]

Re: Premaritial Sex

If I do not want to conceive immediately, I'll be taking steps toward avoiding it (natural family planning), but refuse to engage in contraception.

Why? What is your 'natural family planning' exactly? Will it involve only engaging in intercourse at specific times of the month when your spouse is probably fertile? How is it more acceptable to you as a contraceptive method than using a condom, pulling out, having your partner use an inter-uteran device, having her use birth control or freezing a bunch of your sperm and having a visectomy?

If you answer 'it's more natural', I'll argue against it. If your answer is that you don't like any of the other options for health or cost reasons, then that's alright.