Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

[tsugomaru]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Good schools are heavily dependent on rich parents.

The richer the parents, the better the school is. It's just that simple.

EDIT: Oh, this is CT. My reasoning is, schools have better funding when parents are able to pay for some of the school materials. In poorer places, no parent in the right mind would donate to the school when they have more important things to pay for such as for their home and food. However, in richer neighborhoods, if teachers ask for money to get some school materials, they'll get it.

My school receives very little funding from the government. Most of this money is spent towards school improvements. To be honest, it would be great to have a nicer learning environment. One where the water fountains actually work and one where the teachers don't have to yell in order to speak above the air conditioner/heater. As such, my school doesn't really have much money to spend on new text-books or supplies. Teachers will ask for a $15-20 donation from each parent to get what they need for the class and they'll get it! (Each teacher has about 100-120 students over a course of 5-6 periods).

~Tsugomaru

[Artic_counter]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

I am myself in a private high school in Canada. My high school is near to a public high school and if we compare the two it would give that result:

Private school:
-There is 634 (or something like that) students at this school.
-It cost more money to enter than a public school.
-We have to pass a big Exam on almost everythings and pass it to study there.
-Many teachers are better and more competent than somes at the public school.
-We have more laws and there is more discipline.
-We have more advance class than public school.


Public school:
-There is 2000 (I think this number is higher) students at this school.
-It cost less money to enter than a private school. This is a reason why there is more people at this school.
-We don't have to pass an exam, everybody can enter. This is a reason why there is more people at this school.
-Some teachers are a not as good as my private high school. (They are good but there is a little difference between them and those at the private school).
-There is more vandalism. They have some laws but they are not respected. There is some illegals drugs there and not at my high school (if there is, it's not known). Many people take them and many people know there is a lot at this school. There is many teenager smoking there.
-The things that they teach there is not as advance as the private school.

P.S.: I've been to both schools and i know what I'm talking about.


I don't know if it's the same in America but for those reason private schools are a lot better. They teach you more things and are in many way better.


P.S.: The schools I refered to are them. I only take 2 of them but there is 4 near where I live.

Private schools (They have a lot more good reputation than public schools):
-Académie Antoine-Manseau (most know as "AAM" or "l'académie")
-Esthère Bondin (most known as "St-Jacque")

Public schools:
-Thérèse Martin (most known as "TM")
-Barthelémie Joliette (most known as "Bateau")

These are French speaking schools but we also learn English there.

[Maid]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

I am myself in a private high school in Canada. My high school is near to a public high school and if we compare the two it would give that result:

Private school:
-There is 634 (or something like that) students at this school.
-It cost more money to enter than a public school.
-We have to pass a big Exam on almost everythings and pass it to study there.
-Many teachers are better and more competent than somes at the public school.
-We have more laws and there is more discipline.
-We have more advance class than public school.


Public school:
-There is 2000 (I think this number is higher) students at this school.
-It cost less money to enter than a private school. This is a reason why there is more people at this school.
-We don't have to pass an exam, everybody can enter. This is a reason why there is more people at this school.
-Some teachers are a not as good as my private high school. (They are good but there is a little difference between them and those at the private school).
-There is more vandalism. They have some laws but they are not respected. There is some illegals drugs there and not at my high school (if there is, it's not known). Many people take them and many people know there is a lot at this school. There is many teenager smoking there.
-The things that they teach there is not as advance as the private school.

P.S.: I've been to both schools and i know what I'm talking about.


I don't know if it's the same in America but for those reason private schools are a lot better. They teach you more things and are in many way better.


P.S.: The schools I refered to are them. I only take 2 of them but there is 4 near where I live.

Private schools (They have a lot more good reputation than public schools):
-Académie Antoine-Manseau (most know as "AAM" or "l'académie")
-Esthère Bondin (most known as "St-Jacque")

Public schools:
-Thérèse Martin (most known as "TM")
-Barthelémie Joliette (most known as "Bateau")

These are French speaking schools but we also learn English there.

Some private schools are great and all, but only if you are blessed with parents that are able to afford it.

[slipstrike0159]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

I only skimmed over the posts after the first one so sorry if it has already been said but...

First of all, it is a HORRIBLE idea to make the schools only get money for the students that come because one of two things will result. A: There will be a couple "Elite" schools with the higher classed students which means there will be the other schools which will be filled with the "worse" students which brings those schools to be 10 times worse than public schools are now. That would also seperate them into being high class or low class. Or B: Everyone jumps aboard the schools that actually CAN make their circumstances better and the other schools that cant fizzle out and die from lack of students to support their funding. This would lead to there ONLY being a couple schools which brings a spacing issues and would eventually lead right back to the point they are in right now.

Second of all, you are kidding yourself if you think that teachers are "almost immune to being fired" because i have seen several teachers fired in my public high school over the past couple years.

Third, maybe a FEW public schools are in bad conditions but for the most part they are doing exactly what they are designed to do. Teach us discipline and work ethic so that we will do well in our jobs. When you think about it, all the schools actually do is teach us how to function in the world of work so that we arent thrown into total anarchy. The fact that we learn somewhat irrelevant things during the whole thing is just a plus.

Finally, the old addage that "american kids are dumber than other countries kids" is getting rather old. While it is true that students in other countries have to fight a little more for their education and chance to excel DOESNT contribute anything that has to do with them being better. We have produced many brilliant minds in the US which help us progress, if everyone was just retarded in the US because of the education system then we wouldnt be getting ANYWHERE. Also, in some countries they have no where near the choices that we have, they may have a higher percent pass rate or whatever but the fact remains that in the US the students are more rounded and learn a variety of things so that they can choose what they would like to do later in life.

Basically, all school is about is to learn how to work, and work is the basis of our lives since we cant live without a steady income and means to cope with society.

[Relambrien]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

slipstrike, did you even watch the video?

A: There will be a couple "Elite" schools with the higher classed students which means there will be the other schools which will be filled with the "worse" students which brings those schools to be 10 times worse than public schools are now.

Whoever said students would get varying amounts of money tied to them based on their economic standing?

B: Everyone jumps aboard the schools that actually CAN make their circumstances better and the other schools that cant fizzle out and die from lack of students to support their funding. This would lead to there ONLY being a couple schools which brings a spacing issues and would eventually lead right back to the point they are in right now.

That's the -point-. The bad schools either improve or disappear while the good schools persist. As for spacing, then just limit the number of students who can go to each school based on space and use a lottery to determine which get in. The bad schools will still have less students, as if a school is the fourth best, the three above it will fill first.

Second of all, you are kidding yourself if you think that teachers are "almost immune to being fired" because i have seen several teachers fired in my public high school over the past couple years.

Once again...did you watch the video? Did you see the teacher firing process shown in it? If not, please look at it.

Third, maybe a FEW public schools are in bad conditions but for the most part they are doing exactly what they are designed to do. Teach us discipline and work ethic so that we will do well in our jobs. When you think about it, all the schools actually do is teach us how to function in the world of work so that we arent thrown into total anarchy. The fact that we learn somewhat irrelevant things during the whole thing is just a plus.

And that's the whole -problem-. Schools are only teaching us what we need to survive, not what we want to learn. "The fact that we learn somewhat irrelevant things during the whole thing is just a plus." This makes me angry. If we just needed to learn work ethic and discipline, why teach any sort of academic subject? Math is irrelevant to work ethic and discipline. So is English. And science. And history. If schools were designed to teach work ethic and discipline, they wouldn't be teaching academic subjects.

Finally, the old addage that "american kids are dumber than other countries kids" is getting rather old. While it is true that students in other countries have to fight a little more for their education and chance to excel DOESNT contribute anything that has to do with them being better. We have produced many brilliant minds in the US which help us progress, if everyone was just retarded in the US because of the education system then we wouldnt be getting ANYWHERE. Also, in some countries they have no where near the choices that we have, they may have a higher percent pass rate or whatever but the fact remains that in the US the students are more rounded and learn a variety of things so that they can choose what they would like to do later in life.

America scored 25th on an international test given to high school students around the world. No one's saying other countries' students are better because they have to go through more. We're saying other countries' students are better because the evidence (in the form of test scores), shows it. American students are not "more rounded." Watch the video.

Basically, all school is about is to learn how to work, and work is the basis of our lives since we cant live without a steady income and means to cope with society.

If this were the case, then like I said above, you wouldn't need academic subjects. Just force students to work on random tasks and have them develop a work ethic.

No, the purpose of public schools, and school in general, is to give an -education- in academic subjects. It just so happens that work ethic and discipline are required to achieve that education, and are "just a plus."

[jakspar0w]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

I agree that many of the public schools are doing poorly (learning-wise) I forgot the word I was going to put, haha.
There are also schools that are doing great. Personally, my school is one of the top 10 and we've had 3 people pass the SAT with a 30.
What would we do without public schools? The (in a ever so non-degrading way) Dubya passed the "No Child Left Behind Act", as in every kid should go to school or DIIIIE. (not really, but okay?) So, if that is still in session, would people honestly want to pay for private schools?
Public schools may seem to be doing bad, but the majority of them are doing well.
The paying issue is just like work. The better you do, the more money you get/raises you get. I like to think of it as an equality issue. It's not who offers the most, but who works the hardest. (did that even make sense??)
Okay.

[atalkingcow]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Problems: Teachers are there to make money.

Students are there because they have to be.

Many teachers don't even grade work, they just check if you did it.
(so you don't learn from your mistake, I myself have passed math classes with A's, but I still can't multiply at all.)

At least once a month the "lesson" consists of the "teacher" popping a tape in a VCR and demanding that you watch it while they go out in the hall and have a nice coffee convo with the teacher across the hall.

Gym teachers very often can't perform the very tasks they as of their students. (I've only had one that could, and he was a sub.)

Instead of working with students on the areas they are having trouble with, there is an overwhelming tendency to just assign extra homework. This seems like a good idea as far as getting in extra practice..but there's ~NO~ point in practicing FootBall if you don't know the rules, is there?

In my school, there is a Remedial/Special Ed class, but no advanced class, which means that once again, the ones who understand the material are forced to sit through it again and again. (My Algebra1 class sat through ~ratios~ for ~2 MONTHS~ because 3 out of 29 students didn't get it.)

Unless you are absolutely braindead, you aren't tested for LD. This of course becomes a problem with kids like me, who excel in one subject, but have an incredibly hard time in others. Ex: I can read like lightning, and spell awesome too, but I can't do math above simple addition/subtraction at all. And of course, my low math scores were blamed on "behavioral issues". W T F?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just felt that those screaming issues needed to be voiced, I'm currently 17 and ~STILL A FRESHMAN~ because of my inability to pass a math class.

What really bugs me is, they wonder why I get pissed off at them for yelling at me about my low math scores, which ~I can't help~, and then they say it must be some sort of behavioral issue in my brain, instead of trying to help.

My possible explanation for this phenomenon, THEY'RE JUST THERE FOR THE MONEY!

I've had my say, I'm going to sleep now.
~+~Night~+~
~+~COW~+~

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

I'm really glad to hear stories that confirm my perspective on this. However I don't think it's just money which is the issue, but also how the educational system is arranged; that is, you either have a job in it and make money, or you don't, rather than any incentives. There's also the fact that educators owe their job to Uncle Sam and not Mr. and Ms. Smith.

Teachers can't teach, teachers can't blame parents, so teachers blame kids. It's really that simple. Whether or not kids might actually have differences in brain architecture is irrelevant, diagnosis of behavioral disorders today exist as a handy tool in a corrupt social and political system.

IE, "bad kids", which reflects poorly on parents, has become "disabled kids" which reflects on biology, something no one has control over so no one takes offense at.

[lord_carbo]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Generally, the worst kids behave poorly. I'm sure you can all agree and observe this in your own school. This is unsurprising because those are the kids less likely to pay attention and do work in school. Bad behavior is almost always because of the parents. Blame the parents.

But after working in a number of communities with kids (with a variety of social classes, mainly lower-class though), I can tell you that social class does play a role for two reasons--the first being that low-class communities spawn more bad parents. But that's a scapegoat when blamed on entirely for that reason because there are bad middle-class kids just like there are good low-class kids. The main area in which social class would come in is the fact that a poor community is more likely to have a worse school. The town in my area stereotyped as rich has by far the highest grades and school system. It's also overflowing with whites and Asians, hehe.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Actually a lot of the kids who suffer from bad parenting are the same ones who relish opportunity when it's presented to them.

Also saying "the worst kids behave poorly" is kind of redundant, and doesn't actually mean anything substantive.

The main area in which social class would come in is the fact that a poor community is more likely to have a worse school.

True. Friedman already covered this though.

[lord_carbo]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Oh, I meant the kids who get the worst grades in school.

Anyway, Friedman said it so it must be true 8)

[MarisaKirisame]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

stuff

Of course the lower classes will generally consist of people who aren't very well disciplined and/or don't work very hard. Most people who are willing to work hard end up with a nice, well-paying job because of how much they're willing to work.

Of course there are really tough low-paying jobs and really easy high-paying jobs, and of course there are tons of rich, lazy people and poor, hard-working people, but I'm just saying IN GENERAL, this is a LIKELY FACTOR of being where they are.

But really, is a high school drop out gonna go make $30 an hour at some job? Probably not, if it's a legal job(no drug dealing, prostitution, etc).

Will a college graduate wind up with a $6/hr job for the rest of their life? Probably not, unless they're awfully lazy.

How hard they're willing to work in school determines a lot.

[devonin]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

But really, is a high school drop out gonna go make $30 an hour at some job? Probably not

Eh, managers of fastfood restauraunts may not make 30 bucks an hour, but they make a hell of a lot more than minimum wage.

[MarisaKirisame]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Yeah, but not even close to the majority of dropouts are gonna be managers of anything.

I mean, no matter how smart they are, it just looks bad to companies.

There are TONS of exceptions of great jobs that people can still get. I mean, you could even buy and sell on Ebay and make way more than $30 an hour if you really got into it. In fact, you could make more money than mostly any other job and have absolutely no education at all. I know a dropout in her 40's who's now pretty wealthy because she did exactly this after having a crappy job. She got sick of it all one day and tried Ebay and now she has a lot of extra cash.

However, this is about the majority.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

Many if not most extremely high paying jobs are in sectors with high economic interference. A college degree is in some senses literally a passport to the dominant class.

Hard work and laziness have just about nothing to do with anything. They certainly aren't dominant factors. In fact if you actually stop to think about it for a second, differences in income are correlated mainly to differences in types of labor, not to amount of labor energy invested. Different skill sets are what are in demand, not pure energy, and you certainly don't attain different skill sets simply by way of pure energy.

BTW, how many jobs have you had in your life?