Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

[purebloodtexan]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Why do Protestants and Eastern Orthodox(ers?) care what the Pope has to say about anything? Wasn't the reason the whole Protestant Reformation took place (ignoring the nationalist and economic reasons) because the Catholic Church, including the Pope, was corrupt?

My only assumption is that there aren't many other Christian leaders anywhere near the Pope's "influence" and "power" that are Protestant, although I highly doubt it. From what I've heard, John Paul II has been friendly to Protestants - he even forgave the man that made an attempt on his life. When I saw the report about Benedict XVI being voted in, a decent handful of people expressed their dislike for him.

[devonin]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

The main arguements for church corruption had to do with the church holding temporal political power, and the church intaking a great deal of money through the selling of indulgences.

It is pretty much all administrative rather than religious.

[purebloodtexan]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

The main arguements for church corruption had to do with the church holding temporal political power, and the church intaking a great deal of money through the selling of indulgences.

It is pretty much all administrative rather than religious.

Which means that, if I'm on the right track, the Protestants wanted to have their church for Worship and not much else?

[devonin]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

The defining difference between early-era Protestants and the Catholics was the emphasis on a personal relationship with God. IE: You don't need to associate with God through the medium of a Priest, you can do it all on your own.

This was largely in response to the church privitization of confession and penance, and the presence in basically all Catholic sacraments of a priest being required.

It became the case that a priest was both required on the path to, and the largest obstacle on the path to being saved.

There were other administerial changes: Veneration of Saints was reduced, the Mass began to be conducted outside Latin, and so on, but the biggest issue Luther had with Catholicism was the privitization and commercialization of confession, penance and indulgence, which lead to a politically powerful and fabulously wealthy papacy.

[moches]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

What are the "basics"? Where in the Bible does it say "It's okay if you don't follow me in this respect, because you follow me in this other respect"?
http://andy.mikee385.com

By basics, I mean Christian beliefs. All Christian churches follow one Bible. But things like marriage, politics, fasting, confessions. Big emphasis on confessions because some Christians like Protestants believe you only have to confess to God while Catholics believe to be a good Christian, you must also confess to the Pope. Even if you have killed, "Father, I have murdered." So the Pope to Catholics is like God in human form. But Protestants and Orthodoxes don't even have a Pope. So churches are not all different, in my opinion. I believe that all Christian denominations are only disagreeing on minor terms, we all believe you must not lie, steal, murder, be jealous, etc.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Wow, moches. Wow.

You are clearly getting your information on Catholicism from a Jack Chick tract or something.

Seriously, you don't understand how WAY off-base you are.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[moches]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Wow, moches. Wow.

You are clearly getting your information on Catholicism from a Jack Chick tract or something.

Seriously, you don't understand how WAY off-base you are.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Oops. Just checked a Catholic thing and I might be like 99% off. Sorry.

But what the heck is a Jack Chick tract?!?!?!

We've covered like everything. So I might as well delete.

(DELETE)

[Philpwnsyou]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Quote:
I believe that if there is a god, he wouldn't really care what religion you practice, as long as you yourself are a good person to others, and you don't do wicked things.

That's all hippie good and all, but many religions have practices that are very much against his word.

http://andy.mikee385.com

Oh yeah, definitely, including catholicism.

[tkoy]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

As an Athiest (Yeah, boo Athiests), This is one of those things that made me give up the whole idea of God, when one man, a mortal man, can be chosen by many other mortal men to be the voice of god, it can't work. He's not the "voice" of god, he's not even close, he's just the head of the fathers of the Christian church.

I believe that if there is a god, he wouldn't really care what religion you practice, as long as you yourself are a good person to others, and you don't do wicked things.

When the definition of wicked comes down to: Gay marriage, Practicing a religion other than yours, or otherwise just being different, then something is wrong with that system of religion. When, by trying to "purify" Your own faith by shunning those of another faith, then you've really lost touch with "God". God should be considered something to look at in an admiring light, and an example to all others. Not some angry man-upstairs, looking down at scowling at every decision we make that isn't completely based upon the bible.

Being a good person is much more important that having the "right" faith. Thats what I believe.

AGREE

Religion causes so much death and fighting. Just be a good person and respect other people for what they follow and forget bout it and be yourself

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Oh yeah, definitely, including catholicism.

'Fraid not, bud. No practice of ours is counter to Scripture, and no part of scripture is counter to any practice.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Philpwnsyou]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

'Fraid not, bud. No practice of ours is counter to Scripture, and no part of scripture is counter to any practice.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Ok, where do I start...

How about Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation.

Jesus still had his fleshly body when offering the bread. This body, whole and entire, was to be offered as a perfect, unblemished sacrifice for sins the next afternoon (of the same day of the Hebrew calendar, Nisan 14). He also retained all his blood for that perfect sacrifice. “He poured out his soul [which is in the blood] to the very death.” (Isa 53:12; Le 17:11) Consequently, during the evening meal he did not perform a miracle of transubstantiation, changing the bread into his literal flesh and the wine into his literal blood. For the same reasons, it cannot be truly said that he miraculously caused his flesh and his blood to be present or combined with the bread and wine, as is claimed by those who adhere to the doctrine of consubstantiation.

This is not contradicted by Jesus’ words at John 6:51-57. Jesus was not there discussing the Lord’s Evening Meal; such an arrangement was not instituted until a year later. The ‘eating’ and ‘drinking’ mentioned in this account are done in a figurative sense by exercising faith in Jesus Christ, as is indicated by verses 35 and 40.

Furthermore, eating actual human flesh and blood would be cannibalism. Therefore, Jews who were not exercising faith and who did not properly understand Jesus’ statement about eating his flesh and drinking his blood were shocked. This indicated the Jewish view on eating human flesh and blood, as inculcated by the Law.—John 6:60.

Additionally, drinking blood was a violation of God’s law to Noah, prior to the Law covenant. (Ge 9:4; Le 17:10) The Lord Jesus Christ would never instruct others to violate God’s law. (Compare Mt 5:19.) Furthermore, Jesus commanded: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me,” not in sacrifice of me.—1Co 11:23-25.

The bread and the wine are, therefore, emblems, representing Christ’s flesh and blood in a symbolic way, just as were his words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Jesus had said to those offended by his words: “For a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Joh 6:51) This was given at his death as a sacrifice. His body was buried and was disposed of by his Father before it could see corruption. (Ac 2:31) No one ever ate any of his flesh or blood, literally.

[devonin]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

This is not contradicted by Jesus’ words at John 6:51-57.

And I quote:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

That actually sounds pretty explicitly like he is saying transubstantiation is occuring, though I will happily point out that it is pretty much just Catholocism of the branches of Christianity that still professes doctrinally to believe this.

[Philpwnsyou]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

That actually sounds pretty explicitly like he is saying transubstantiation is occuring.

Re-read my post. It is made clear from the context of the chapter that Jesus is not talking about the Lords evening meal.

[devonin]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

He needn't be talking about the Lords evening meal when he says that. Bear in mind that this discussion is directly on the heels of miracles anyway. You seem to be approaching this from a "He didn't cut flesh off his body, or bleed into a cup, therefore, not body and blood" standpoint, when the Miracle of Transubstantiation is just that, Miraculous.

[devonin]

Re: Pope said other churches are "defective", is he right?

Oh, and for moches, this is a Jack Chick Tract.