Are our lives completely predetermined?

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  • aperson
    FFR Hall of Fame
    FFR Simfile Author
    • Jul 2003
    • 3431

    #31
    Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

    Originally posted by Tisthammerw
    Solipsism has its advantages: you only accept beliefs that can be "proven." But you also toss out a lot of other things that seem rational to believe: the existence of atoms, that the Holocaust occurred etc.

    That seems interesting.

    Solipsism is a bit more subtle than that. It isn't just that you accept beliefs that are proven, it's that you accept systems that are consistent with your internal model of the world. The problem, however, is that any consistent system is incomplete or undecidable, which means that solipsistic thinking requires a constant shift of axioms based on what set of beliefs you want to preserve. When the solipsist steps out a level they realize that their system of reality is ultimately held prisoner to its axioms and all systems themselves are absolutely arbitrary. This is the (natural) step from solipsism to nihilism, which I extended to show the statement that nothing is real in an earlier post. Necessarily, the enlightened (in this regard) solipsist rejects all formalization of thought and any weight of knowledge.

    This leaves a myriad routes for the nihilistic solipsist to attack free will. First off, you could simply assume that our concept of excluded middle is absolutely arbitrary, and neither free will nor the absence of free will must exist.

    Ultimately, though, I think all of this shows that the concept of free will is a very self-referential statement; it's self-referential in the sense that it speaks about the system from which it's originating. Formally, for any statement to speak about itself, it must have been formalized on a system stronger than itself. (For example, in Godel's proofs, the process of Godel numbering takes place in something like MathEnglish, while the system itself where the self-referential processes are being injected is something like Peano Arithmetic, or a Turing Machine). Because of the limitations in human empathy, anything that rests upon a super-perceptual level is ultimately individual, and unconnectable across individuals.

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    • das1ngerplayer
      FFR Player
      • Feb 2007
      • 38

      #32
      Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

      This is one topic I have no clue what the answer is. It's confising if you think about it for too long. But it does raise a lot of questions.

      Comment

      • Reach
        FFR Simfile Author
        FFR Simfile Author
        • Jun 2003
        • 7471

        #33
        Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

        Originally posted by drummerlsu
        I don't think that measureable uncertainty and predetermination have to be mutually exclusive. Just because a quantity can't be measured exactly doesn't mean it isn't an exact quantity.

        One thing I don't understand is why some of you claim quantum mechanics isn't deterministic. The Shrodiner equation gives an exact description of the quantum state. Again, just because there is no way to actually find out what the state is doesn't mean that there isn't one.

        Just because something is predetermined doesn't mean anyone can actually find out what is is.
        In order for the Schrodinger equation to imply that quantum mechanics is deterministic, you have to make a few assumptions ( as always, hence this argument will always exist ). You have to assume the wave function is an all governing function that applies to everything in the universe, from the very beginning. Otherwise, you just run yourself in circles.

        I would agree with your premise, though. Although I'm not a fan of predeterminism, there is unquestionably some degree of it that exists. However, if you assume quantum mechanics is somehow operated by an external, quantifiable process, you can't really tell it apart from a random one now can you?

        I'm going to stick with my Reach-Determinism here in that it seems a more logical conclusion to assume the universe is governed by both causation and undetermined events.



        As for the free will argument...I would consider free will absolutely necessary. In essence it can be described as the mechanism which we use to think; an expression of our brains existance. Sensation in itself does not appear to be deterministic, i.e. your current state does not imply a future state and so on.

        You have to construct your own definition of free will to argue its existance, though. There should always be some form of it which you can define that implies it does not exist. Tis and ap both bring up good points.
        Last edited by Reach; 02-17-2007, 09:05 PM.

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        • drummerlsu
          Geaux Tigers
          • Apr 2004
          • 105

          #34
          Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

          Originally posted by aperson
          Ultimately, though, I think all of this shows that the concept of free will is a very self-referential statement; it's self-referential in the sense that it speaks about the system from which it's originating. Formally, for any statement to speak about itself, it must have been formalized on a system stronger than itself. (For example, in Godel's proofs, the process of Godel numbering takes place in something like MathEnglish, while the system itself where the self-referential processes are being injected is something like Peano Arithmetic, or a Turing Machine). Because of the limitations in human empathy, anything that rests upon a super-perceptual level is ultimately individual, and unconnectable across individuals.
          Wouldn't it follow that the idea of human free will is irrelevant in the discussion of the universe (the higher level system) being deterministic?

          Originally posted by Reach

          I would agree with your premise, though. Although I'm not a fan of predeterminism, there is unquestionably some degree of it that exists. However, if you assume quantum mechanics is somehow operated by an external, quantifiable process, you can't really tell it apart from a random one now can you?
          Does it matter if we can tell it apart? It is already obvious that if the universe is deterministic we can't actually discern anything useful from that fact; the discussion is merely on a philosophical level.

          My understanding of quantum principles is only basic, but it seems to me that some people are using the limitations in both the current state of human understanding of physical principles and the natural limitations on practical measurement to justify a "necessary randomness" that may or may not exist.

          And even if it did, does the human actually have any real involvement with this randomness? If a human is struggling between two possible choices, does that randomness constitue free will over the outcome? I would argue that a logical person would be weiging much larger critera that are immune in the short-term to such randomness. Thus any random involvement would be at a much deeper level not actually known to the human making the desicion.

          Originally posted by Reach

          As for the free will argument...I would consider free will absolutely necessary. In essence it can be described as the mechanism which we use to think; an expression of our brains existance. Sensation in itself does not appear to be deterministic, i.e. your current state does not imply a future state and so on.
          In this sense free will does have meaning, but it is way outside the realm of universal determinism.

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          • aperson
            FFR Hall of Fame
            FFR Simfile Author
            • Jul 2003
            • 3431

            #35
            Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

            Originally posted by drummerlsu
            Wouldn't it follow that the idea of human free will is irrelevant in the discussion of the universe (the higher level system) being deterministic?
            No, because we measure the universe through our perception. Everything is ultimately funneled through our perception before we actually do any information processing, therefore it is the highest level.

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            • slipstrike0159
              FFR Player
              • Aug 2005
              • 568

              #36
              Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

              If you think of things as being predetermined then sensory perception is all that you are looking at, as that would completely say that it is predetermined. However, if you look deeper into it you will notice that all of our choices and thoughts are ultimately affected by everything that our senses have seen in past experiences. You could say that right now you moved your hand through free will, and of course you would be right but the base reason why you initially moved your hand through the air would be because of this post you are reading. Now this is not to say that everything you do is determined by everyone else because you could think of it in an opposite effect too, being that everything you do affects what everyone else does. While simple measure through sensory perception (the only thing we can rely on) would suggest that from this nothing you do will change because past experiences will ultimately affect what you do, thinking about this would be subject to make you do something to try and disprove this idea.
              I think that in the entire scope of things, yes we do have free will and nothing is predetermined. Although, from my perspective right now (sensory perspective) the way you choose to react to an event or idea depends on experience through other similar past experiences. So in a lot of logical perspective ways we will see things as being predetermined even if they are not purely on the fact that we can only see things as they happen form our view. Surely this cannot mean that by one choice at the start of time could affect experiences for everyone in existence and how they act accordingly, or could it? This is the question that needs to be answered, however i do not think one person can effectively prove either way.

              Comment

              • GuidoHunter
                is against custom titles
                • Oct 2003
                • 7371

                #37
                Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                Originally posted by drummerlsu
                Again, just because there is no way to actually find out what the state is doesn't mean that there isn't one.
                But if we can't find it, how are we going to predict anything?

                --Guido


                Originally posted by Grandiagod
                Originally posted by Grandiagod
                She has an asshole, in other pics you can see a diaper taped to her dead twin's back.
                Sentences I thought I never would have to type.

                Comment

                • korny
                  It's Saint Pepsi bitch
                  • May 2004
                  • 4385

                  #38
                  Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                  If you believe in god then you automatically believe that life is predetermined.This is because if god is all knowing from the beginning to the end like the bible says he is then he knows every single event that is going to occur in all of our lives before we were even created which contradicts the idea of free agency. In other words god isn't real.

                  Comment

                  • GuidoHunter
                    is against custom titles
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 7371

                    #39
                    Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                    Haha. God's omnipotence contradicts a pool of teamless sports players?

                    God himself also says he gave us free will.

                    What of that?

                    I really like how people think simple quips somehow disprove God's existence...

                    --Guido


                    Originally posted by Grandiagod
                    Originally posted by Grandiagod
                    She has an asshole, in other pics you can see a diaper taped to her dead twin's back.
                    Sentences I thought I never would have to type.

                    Comment

                    • OmegaMetroid
                      FFR Player
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 25

                      #40
                      Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                      Originally posted by korny
                      If you believe in god then you automatically believe that life is predetermined.This is because if god is all knowing from the beginning to the end like the bible says he is then he knows every single event that is going to occur in all of our lives before we were even created which contradicts the idea of free agency. In other words god isn't real.
                      Predetermined though is not the same as all knowing. He knows every single event that will occur yes, but that is not predestination. Predestination, at least to me, is that only those "chosen" will make it to heaven. So it is not just like your name was drawn from a hat and you get to go. If you start to think that you were a "chosen", and then become, for the lack of a better word, an evil person in life, then maybe you weren't one of those. God knows what you will do and why you do it, but does not control it in any way. Your beliefs infulence your decisions.

                      Basicly it comes down to choice, which you do have in life and if you dont believe it you should be slapped. You can choose to do good or bad.
                      Originally posted by Synthlight
                      No.. you go die you BIG MEANIE! OMG THE INTERNET FEELINGS HAVE HURT ME!

                      Cheers,

                      Synthlight

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                      • Kekiz
                        FFR Player
                        • Nov 2006
                        • 159

                        #41
                        Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                        How can life be predetermined if the information isnt stored anywhere? Time is just a concept not a big long data spread sheet.

                        Comment

                        • aperson
                          FFR Hall of Fame
                          FFR Simfile Author
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 3431

                          #42
                          Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                          Originally posted by Kekiz
                          How can life be predetermined if the information isnt stored anywhere? Time is just a concept not a big long data spread sheet.
                          induction

                          Comment

                          • Tisthammerw
                            FFR Player
                            • Jan 2007
                            • 60

                            #43
                            Re: Are our lives completely predetermined?

                            Originally posted by korny
                            If you believe in god then you automatically believe that life is predetermined.This is because if god is all knowing from the beginning to the end like the bible says he is then he knows every single event that is going to occur in all of our lives before we were even created which contradicts the idea of free agency.
                            The claim that foreknowledge implies predestination might seem compelling, but it doesn't quite logically follow. Why? Because either event A will happen or it won't, and merely knowing what will happen doesn't cause anything. Think of it this way. Suppose I use a time machine to travel from the present to the year 1995. I know that the American people will elect George W. Bush in the year 2000. Yet this foreknowledge does not imply predestination. I don’t take away the people’s free will simply by knowing what will happen. But what if people choose to vote for Al Gore instead? In that case, I would correspondingly have always known that when I traveled from the present to the year 1995. In either case, foreknowledge does not imply predestination.

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