Song Structure and Transitions

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

I'm not really the best for transitions, I guess they come [Maybe you could be more specific for me 'cause I'm dopey XD]. I think structure is something that's crucial though. When you say "Ends up being two different sections" do you mean it sounds like two different songs?
Something easy for structure Binary [A-B] Ternary [A-B-A] Rondo [A-B-A-C-A. . etc] Something as easy as a hook/chorus is something for the listener to hold on to and kind of adds that flow to the tune. Care to maybe give an example of what you mean? I may not be on the same wave length as you.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions


Structure is something I don't think about enough. I mean, sure, I'll think "Ok, I wanna start like this, get to this, and maybe go back" but I always forget to lay it out alphabetically, which I think really helps with song structure. As far as transitions are concerned, at the beginning of the song, I always like to establish one element that's almost ALWAYS there, be it a synthline, a basic drum pattern etc. I then layer upon that and add and add to it. When I want to transition to a new part, I do exactly the opposite; I slowly (sometimes abruptly) subtract and subtract parts from that original element until I'm left alone with it, and then I'll completely modify this original element to bring the song into a new direction.

For example: In my song Edit (Padlock Remix) I start off with a simple cello line, I then add breakcore drums which build up, and then I suddenly end the drums, and give a little plucked cello solo. Then I bring back the bowed cello melody, only it's a completely different melody now and I repeat breakcore drums. Then I drop the drums again, give a small plucked solo, but this time, I repeat the plucked solo, and that continues while I layer on glitch-hop drums. Then I take it really quietly into a very quiet "jazz" section before dropping everything and giving a LOOOONG filtered buildup to a completely new theme of the song.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

The only advice I can give is to use your ears. The more I listen to what it is I'm writing, and the less theory gets involved, the more creative and interesting my solutions become.

An easy way to surmise what it is that Jake is trying to say is that you need always think about what is the "meat" of your tune. ZThere will be a certain section that is the hook, but without those other parts, it's just not that worthwhile.

So everything...hang on ..

A train passed by while I was beginning to write this, and I heard birds chirping an interesting rhythm. I am going to make a synth based off the sound and maybe it will illustrate the idea here.

Anyways, this is for you:



I started heavy with the train synth, and then started using the new instrument sound more and more. First to back up the chord, then to take over the melody after the rhythm was established. I didn't have a plan the entire time, it just ended up like that because I had two sounds I created that I wanted to use together.

Eventually I could bring both back in full bore and it would be even more powerful, since up until that point neither had been used like that.

I hope this helps and I make some semblance of sense.. If it is, let me know.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

I've always had issues with transitioning as well. Just one tip that might help; when you transition, you want to make it clear to the listener, that a change is about to occur. Whether it be unique sounds, a half time section, or just a generic sweep, the listener is looking for a change in a song. Otherwise it's just background music. Sometimes it's good to visualize it. Try counting the measures of a song in the genre of music you're attempting and take note of the style.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

Draw the structure itself, as in a line graph. I have the same problem where I can hear something great in my head, but maybe it doesn't come out the way I originally heard it when I start writing or I end up forgetting and it turns into something else and the original idea is lost. Just draw a simple line, maybe make notes along the way so you know where different sections come in, and try to stick to that physical reference when you actually start composing.

If that doesn't help, record yourself singing your ideas so they never go lost.

Transition tricks can stem right from the basics of theory all the way to unique syths and so on. Maybe you want to modulate - knowing your closely related keys can help. danny mentions counting the measures - simple things like beat and measures are what you definitely should look at when figuring out transitions; it's all about the feel, and the transition should feel like it's starting in the right place or it'll be awkward.

Lastly, if your music is split into two sections and you think the transition is the problem, go back and listen to the sections separately and make sure that they make sense together in the same piece. Maybe they're very different and not meshing well, but you still want them together. The solution may be to make the transition longer, its own smaller section even. You don't want the listener to work at listening because of a bad transition, so draw it out if it will make it more seamless.

My two cents.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

Music theory posts make me feel warm and giddly inside. KgZ <3

Personally, what I like to do is come up with a theme I particularly like, and then format the entire song around that theme and fit it in. Usually that works and I maintain focus of my structure.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

I could talk progressions all day. I-IV-I -> such a powerful and beautiful thing. Amen, AMIRITE? I feel dirty using that in this sub-forum. =P

Experimenting with the huge number of combinations can help you churn out some amazing music, and it will guide your structure so well if you come up with a great theme or motif. That's a good and basic idea for writing music in general - find a great sounding progression in a key you think sounds best for your piece and let it guide you. o.o

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

This is also something I desperately need help with. Its the reason I don't release song haha. Tons of wips though.. I'll read up on this thread when I have time

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

If it's not out of line, may I continue this as an advice thread?

This is my alter ego account, so I'm associating it with a different musical alias. Anywho, it's alongside the same concept as the song in my forum signature, but more controlled.

http://soundcloud.com/catchswitchauto/reformat

I just feel a bit landlocked. Either I change the entire feel, or it's the same thing over and over. I should continue learning music theory, though lately I've been mostly going by ear and finding what sounds ok... However 4 measure phrases of the same Eb7 chord with melodies that aren't satisfying cease me. Anyone know of some good Dominant 7th/Jazzy chord progressions?

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

My original post got clouded in this theory debate that seems to rage whenever I try to discuss songwriting.

But I'll tell you this, Phleg...

The problem with that song isn't a lack of theory or a demand to know more, it's in the arrangement, at least to my ears. Which is what I was attempting to explain originally. It feels more crucial to me to understand how to present an idea in a way that makes the most powerful impression than to know how to make more of them.

The way your song is currently set up, it doesn't really take advantage of what is already going on. If you improved the rhythm and took away / added elements differently, the song would have a lot more kick to it and I think overall you'd be more satisfied with the composition as is.

I hear a lot of potential in what you already have, really. I used to also edit essays for people, and help them make their writing more crisp. this is essentially what needs to be done, but musically.

So, that is something I can help you with, if that is something you want to work on. But if you rather play with progression then, that's your call.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

Thanks Spook, you definitely brought up something I've been thinking about--adding/subtracting elements. I found that what I have is already sorta clunky so I could definitely take away or at least replace as an intro. But how and what exactly is what I'm having trouble with. Whenever I mute any combination of tracks it just doesn't sound right to me. To visualize,

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

On a side note, high-five for Renoise.

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

There's a lot more to it than adding / subtracting element.s. You have to consider the genre, and different rhythms and fills, so on and so forth before you start linking them together.

For example, you can use cut time on the drums to slow down a segment while you introduce a new instrument, then bring the beat back into the normal rhythm and it will sound full speed, even though you really didn't change anything about the melody, it adds a dynamic to the song that wasn't there before.

I'm slightly drunk.

you should contact me off the forum, it will be easier to demonstrate audibly

Re: Song Structure and Transitions

+1


I'm also assuming that this thread is targetted at electronic musicians. I've found that in my acoustic writings I can come up with something one day, write a plethora of other things, only to 'finish' the original months later.
To me, good music can't be forced, you need only be there for when it comes to you