Theory project

Re: Theory project

I don't like that it's modal. The harmonic minor scale is your friend.

Re: Theory project

I'm not far enough into AP Theory to talk very intelligently about this yet, mind if I ask what you mean?

Modal as in like Locrian and all that stuff?

I think when I started writing this on the piano it was required to be major so I started in F Major, but my teacher changed her mind and I started going d natural minor

Also, off-topic: I notice you've got Rachmaninoff in your Last.fm, I just started listening to him. Bought a high-res album of his Symphonic Dances and Études-Tableaux, and suggestions on anything essential by him?

Re: Theory project

Yeah that's what I mean

Unfortunately they don't teach you how to use harmonic minor in basic theory, or at least I was never taught how to use it. I was just taught it. Which is unfortunate because it absolutely rocks.

When you raise the seventh note of the natural minor scale, what you create is called the leading tone, which is a note a half step below the first note of the scale. This gives it a stronger pull to the first note of the scale, which is called the tonic and it's kind of like the home base of the scale. This also changes the music from being modal to being tonal.

The natural minor scale with a raised seventh is called the harmonic minor scale. Now there's another thing called the melodic minor scale, but I'm not sure how to explain its use concisely. I can explain it, but I don't think you really need to know how to use it for this example. Just remember that you don't always raise the seventh note of the scale. In fact, at :06 in your melody, the C is perfectly fine in its natural state.

In the major mode, the leading tone is already there, so there is no "harmonic major" scale.

Raise the C to a C# in each of these instances: 0:16, 0:21, 0:25, 0:35. The C at :06 is OK. Then listen to it again.

Also the melody really degenerates near the end. Just saying.

As for Rachmaninoff suggestions, I HIGHLY suggest listening to Vladimir Ashkenazy's recordings of his second and third piano concertos. Ashkenazy's recording of the second is the best there is, hands down; Ashkenazy's recording of the third is one of the best, up there with Richter and Horowitz. But as a plus they both come in the same CD set. Also Ashkenazy's recording has the best fidelity out of the three best interpretations.

Re: Theory project

So the C at :06 is OK because it isn't followed by the tonic?

And yeah, I had difficulty with the end due to the 16-measure constraint

I think I was explained to the whole leading tone thing once before, but I was never told the use of the melodic minor and none of the pieces we've analyzed have used it either

Re: Theory project

You're catching on quickly! You're right. That's part of it and that's usually why you'd use the tonic. But it's also OK to use the leading tone and not go to the tonic so long as you're still using the "dominant chord," which is the triad built on the fifth scale degree. In d minor, that would be the A major triad: A, C#, and E. If your melody goes C, then E, then D, you may still want to raise the C to a C# even though it doesn't actually resolve to D, because the implied chord is still the dominant chord because C# and E are both chord tones of the dominant chord.

The reason why the natural C at :06 is OK is for two good reasons: first of all, you don't stay with the dominant chord. Second of all, you're actually using the melodic minor scale.

There are two melodic minor scales: ascending and descending. Ascending has a raised sixth and seventh (note: the only difference between the major scale and the ascending melodic minor scale is the third). Descending is the exact same thing as the natural minor. You use the notes in the melodic minor scales as passing tones-- notes that are in between two different chord tones. And you use the melodic minor scales for stepwise motion (A B C D E...), not skip-wise (A C E G...). The point of the ascending melodic minor is to avoid the nasty huge interval between the natural sixth and the raised seventh, so whenever you're going from the sixth to the raised seventh (or vice versa, but only in a few situations), you also want to raise the sixth! Descending melodic minor is used as a passing tone between the tonic (D) and the fifth (A) when there's downward stepwise motion. These are approximate rules, but this is for the majority of situations. That's probably pretty poorly explained. How about I record a video or something in a few minutes to show you what I mean by all of this? :P

Now because you're descending from D to A down in steps, you use the descending melodic minor scale. So that's why the C natural is OK.

Re: Theory project

You explained the reason for ascending well, but I'm not sure what you mean by passing tone between the tonic and dominant. Sorry for making you explain all this haha

And I can't decide which I like better, the song in harmonic or natural. It sounds to me like the C#s add more tension to the overall sound, while it's different a different feeling than how I initially wrote it.

Re: Theory project

Passing tones between the tonic = stepwise notes between the first note of the scale down to the fifth. So if you're going to play the notes D, C, Bb, and A in downward motion, just keep it as it is; don't raise anything. The "passing tones" in this instance are C and Bb. What you really want to keep is the Bb which gives it a minor feel. It also has an important function in the harmonic minor scale as a tone of the subdominant triad and as the supertonic triad (or seventh chord)... and as you'll learn later on if you start REALLY getting into music theory, it's part of the augmented sixth and neapolitan sixth chords, which are chords that prepare the dominant chord. And the subdominant triad and the supertonic chord also prepare the dominant! So basically the Bb functions like a "leading tone" to A, which is why it makes sense that all of these chords that are used to prepare the dominant all use the lowered sixth scale degree.

So basically, the rules for melodic minor are this: start from the harmonic minor scale. That's the basis of everything. Now, you either want to raise the sixth or lower the seventh. When you want to use the sixth from the harmonic minor, lower the seventh. When you want to use the seventh from the harmonic minor, raise the sixth. An important thing to remember about the melodic minor is that you rarely use chord tones from them. They are used for "nonharmonic tones" (which are basically notes that decorate the piece) such as passing tones. The chord tones are all derived from the harmonic minor scale, hence the name "harmonic minor."

And screw the video; my internet keeps timing out on me so I won't even bother uploading it. And I hadn't thought of explaining it like I did in the last paragraph before recording the video.

Re: Theory project

Oh wow that makes perfect sense.

I had always wondered why they were named melodic and harmonic, but if the harmonic one is what you use chords for that makes a lot of sense.

So is it ever really appropriate just to use plain old natural minor throughout an entire piece, or is the leading tone absolutely necessary? I think I like the natural version I had wrote initially more, raising those few 7ths makes it feel different to me, I'm not sure how to explain it. I like it, but it's like a different piece.

Re: Theory project

This part kind of confused me, I was taught that when the song is ascending towards the tonic, you raise the 6th and 7th, and when it's descending from it, you lower them.

Though maybe you mean the same thing, since you'd only use the 7th from the natural minor if you were already descending.. right?

Maybe my school just teaches a narrow view of theory, I don't know.

Re: Theory project

Pyro: It's ok to use just natural minor. In that case you'd be writing what's called "modal" music. Modal music is where musicians generally start, and once you get really good at writing music, modal music might be something you call upon often. (Like Debussy and Ravel.) But for now, the use of the natural minor is a habit you're going to need to break. You really need to get used to using harmonic and melodic minor, which is what the majority of classical music in the minor mode uses.

It's a very simplified way of teaching it. Knowing to use the ascending one when going up and the descending one when going down is useful to know for passages when you're going up and down scales completely but that's about it. There are many instances where you'll use the ascending melodic minor even though you're going down, like if you're playing a V chord and you want a passing tone from the leading tone to the dominant. See, for example, the first few seconds of Paganini's Caprice No. 24. And here's the sheet music. Page 42 where it says "Tema" marks the beginning of Caprice No. 24. Just note how the melodic minor is used in the second measure even though the music is descending.

The point of melodic minor is to avoid the augmented second interval in the harmonic minor (between the lowered sixth and raised seventh) in melodic instances. Above all I guess that's what you should remember. In the case of a passing tone between the leading tone and the dominant, raising the sixth avoids that nasty interval.

The point of my explanation is that there are very few instances where a harmonic tone you want to use is actually the raised sixth or the lowered seventh. You need to work from the raised seventh or the lowered sixth, and if you used one raised note you usually use both raised notes, and if you use one lowered note you usually use both lowered notes.

You'd usually use the descending melodic minor when playing a dominant preparatory chord because those tend to use the lowered sixth. The thing is, that lowered seventh in the descending melodic minor scale is only played as a nonharmonic tone, like as a passing tone from the lowered sixth to the tonic tone or vice-versa. I can't recall a single dominant preparatory chord that uses the lowered seventh degree. It's the same case with the ascending melodic minor. The raised sixth is used as a nonharmonic tone in the majority of instances. If they were used harmonically, then they'd be scale tones in the harmonic minor. Duh.

Even my explanation isn't perfect. You can still use a lowered sixth as the ninth in the dominant chord. It's hard to explain when to use either the ascending, descending, or harmonic. You need to play it by ear and develop a familiarity with the scales and their uses. The whole point of the melodic minor scales is to avoid that augmented second interval in the harmonic minor. Just keep that in mind and you'll be OK. But certainly the "ascending when up, descending when down" explanation is an oversimplification, and it can be the cause of many inadvertent deviations from common practice.

Re: Theory project

Yeah, that makes sense. I figured what I explained was an oversimplification, but I haven't done enough common practice with minor scales to understand it in any other practical sense.