my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

**Coodles** · 09-27-2007, 01:32 AM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

btw i know this has alot of profanity in it.

im sorry if that offends anyone but i use that in my writing.

**KA0Z R4VR** · 09-27-2007, 02:05 AM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Don't double post please. Use the edit button.

I mean if someone is just smart. not to brag theres alot of people out there that can do this, but i can take a computer apart and put it back together even better. Its very simple. Its also a job that gets a VERY high salary BUT!!! you have to get a degree.

No one is "just smart". Taking apart a computer and putting pieces together is not something that you can define as smart. If you can remember where everything goes then thats all there is to it. Now, if you were to give details about the specific part and it's function, then it takes a bit more brains.

why must i go through WASTED HOURS of my life. in school. let alone COLLEDGE.

Obviously, spending time at college would help with the spelling issue. You take courses in college; It is up to you to take which ones you want to accel in. If you consider it a waste of time, then don't bother.

School Fees are pushing it. but my friend just told me the other day, "colledge cost about 23,000 something dollars that iam loaning from the school but i have to pay back after i get a degree/job." so im like... umm...if the school has money...why do they need to give it to you to buy stuff...cant they just... loan the **** to you? i mean pay for it if it gets damaged or something sure.. but they loan you money they already have. so you can go buy things for a school you choose to enter.

It's a little something called *interest. I see where you are comming from, but you are not understanding the principal of loans and above all else, college. Most loans are built on interest rates. They gradually charge you a fixed or fluctuating percentage in which it is applied to your initial loan. It is how they make money. Secondly, college is not high school. You are paying to take the course. It is not up to them to make you go. They are not going to just give the materials needed because they do not care if you need it or not.

...and they exepect you to pay back these outrageous prices.

My point exactly - Interest is how they make money.

i could turn my comp off that im using right now. Disassemble it. and reassemble it. just perfect.

Once again, this does not mean you are smart. Plenty of people can take apart something and put it back together. It does not define how smart you are.

Im sorry i think school should be a choice. after your sophmore year i think you should be able to choose if you want to go to school anymore or not.i from my own life experiences know things would be easier. ok i have no father my moms working one job with barely any pay.

This hardly has critical thinking involved, but as far as my knowledge goes, graduates tend to make anywhere from $29,000+ a year, while non-graduates make around $20,000 and less. If you don't go to school, then you will be in the same situation your mom is in. Working hard now with no education is NOT going to pay off later. You will end up in the same situation - A non-graduate making just enough to live an at-line poverty life-style. Is that what you want?

you have to have a workers permit if your under 18. well to get a workers permit YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOOD GRADES. now if your DP&L was turned off because your poor and its 90 degrees outside. and even hotter inside. do you really think i can study like that?

This is slowly becomming a rant of situations and poor excuses and it really does not belong in this forum.

im sorry when im at home hungry as **** because i havent ate for a few days its not easy to find the hypotneuse of a right triangle.

LOL. I am sorry, but the way I read that was funny. No offense intended.

and im not blaming my mother. i love my mom she took care of me by her self for 15 years. and im wanting to do the same thing right now as her! drop out and find a ****ing job. but oh.. im in my sophmore year and im a freshman by standards.

This is exactly what I mean. You will be in her exact situation. School is a fundamental part of anyones' life. It is there to teach critical thinking and rational forms of logic that can be used in the real world towards a field of study that generally appeals to you.

So therefore. my point is the Goverment has trapped lower-class citizens of america in poverty.

Lower class citizens did that, not the government. They give people the tools and mandate that each indivisual must comply with the tools given. Those standards are only indicators that one is applying themself towards a goal. They somewhat prepare your life for bigger goals and set your determination. If you can not simply get a hard earned GPA, then they do not expect you to acheive some higher end goal in your career.

unless my mom hits the ****ing lottery[which is payed over time in intervals not one large cash sum btw]

Actually, it can be given either or. Lump sum with taxes, or over a period time. It's which ever suites you best.

the only other person who lives in this house is me. and i cant get a job because my grades are low. why are my grades low im stressed and im depressed becasue i have to get yelled at by my mom because we dont have money and that makes her stressed.

Yet again, this situation could have been solved a long time ago. If your mom had gone to college in which she paid for, she would have probably found a job or the school would assist her in a career search and she could have been making more money. If you do not follow up in school expect the same.

our goverment needs to find the fundemental flaws, and actually do something about them.

The only flaw is *you* as a person not taking the responsibility that *you* should take to ensure a nice lifestyle. They provide the tools; USE THEM.

there are people living out on the streets. and it may not even be their fault.

Actually, they were given each chance everyone else was.

our goverment no matter how flashy they look they dont give 2 flyin ****S about the lower class. they worry about how they can make more money.

We live in a democracy. We the people, run the government. It was made like that for a reason. the president does not make $1,000,000,000,000 a day because he charges people. It costs money to run schools and programs. It is said that each student has a $20,000 investment from our government paid out in education and tools that other countries wish they had. You say you are poor, but in reality you have a fat $20,000 check in the mail, IF you finish through your education and apply what you learned from school.

if you took the time to read all my ranting and nonsense i thank you. i hope it opened a door to a place you havent thought about before. because everything in this artical is real the problems i face, expenses, everything.

This whole thread should not even exist. There is nothing to debate against; All this is is just a big opinion which is built so horribly on the idea of making money and living happy at the moment with no regards to what our government has put on the table for you to use.

smartness isnt all in the schools its in the people.

Ignorance isn't all in the schools, but it is in some people.

**Kilroy_x** · 09-27-2007, 10:12 AM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Originally posted by KA0Z R4VR

No one is "just smart". Taking apart a computer and putting pieces together is not something that you can define as smart. If you can remember where everything goes then thats all there is to it. Now, if you were to give details about the specific part and it's function, then it takes a bit more brains.

Some people are definitely "Just smart". Intelligence is for the most part an abstract construct anyways, but there are certainly child chess prodigies or mathematical savants who show profound skill in an area well before they ever formal training in it. The same is true of all variety of skills.

This hardly has critical thinking involved, but as far as my knowledge goes, graduates tend to make anywhere from $29,000+ a year, while non-graduates make around $20,000 and less. If you don't go to school, then you will be in the same situation your mom is in. Working hard now with no education is NOT going to pay off later. You will end up in the same situation - A non-graduate making just enough to live an at-line poverty life-style. Is that what you want?

Pay varies dramatically from job to job even for the uneducated. A commission laborer can often make a very good salary. Not withstanding the fact that uneducated males specifically tend to be in the upper ranges of such salaries.

This is slowly becomming a rant of situations and poor excuses and it really does not belong in this forum.

That's what it was to begin with. However there is quite a lot to discuss in the post, so I'm not sure what the issue is. What you are responding to is actually an example given by the OP of how government economic interference creates a catch-22 situation of sorts which dramatically hurts people.

Lower class citizens did that, not the government.

BS

They give people the tools and mandate that each indivisual must comply with the tools given. Those standards are only indicators that one is applying themself towards a goal. They somewhat prepare your life for bigger goals and set your determination. If you can not simply get a hard earned GPA, then they do not expect you to acheive some higher end goal in your career.

This is one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard. What goal are you even talking about, the goal of impressing a gaggle of idiot high school teachers whose positions are roughly equivalent to sinecures? If I want to learn about, for example, the philosophy of science, I can go to a library and pick up books by Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper. I can then read them, and given that I understand them I will probably give every indication that I understood them when I get in conversation with other knowledgeable individuals about the subject.

School is self-improvement, you say? So are a million other things.

Yet again, this situation could have been solved a long time ago. If your mom had gone to college in which she paid for, she would have probably found a job or the school would assist her in a career search and she could have been making more money. If you do not follow up in school expect the same.

Blaming a person for the actions of their parents is one of the most appalling things a person can do. It would be one thing if you weren't claiming he was at fault for failing to meet the standards of an oppressive, illegitimate system, but not only are you claiming we can dismiss his plight because his mom didn't act a certain way 20 years ago, you're also saying "tough sh1t" to an entire range of legitimate complaints.

The only flaw is *you* as a person not taking the responsibility that *you* should take to ensure a nice lifestyle. They provide the tools; USE THEM.

No, the government is flawed as well, almost simply by merit of its nature. I would agree that a person should try to make the best of their situation, but that doesn't mean the situation should be condoned.

Actually, they were given each chance everyone else was.

Chance, maybe. Resources or treatment? Maybe not.

We live in a democracy.

Actually it's closer to a constitutional republic, although the whole constitutional part is going away rather quickly.

We the people, run the government.

To an extremely limited extent, perhaps.

It costs money to run schools and programs. It is said that each student has a $20,000 investment from our government paid out in education and tools that other countries wish they had. You say you are poor, but in reality you have a fat $20,000 check in the mail, IF you finish through your education and apply what you learned from school.

What are you talking about, a $20,000 annual average salary for High School graduates? The amount of money spent per student on public education? In either of these instances what you are saying is nonsensical.

This whole thread should not even exist. There is nothing to debate against; All this is is just a big opinion which is built so horribly on the idea of making money and living happy at the moment with no regards to what our government has put on the table for you to use.

There is a wealth of things to debate about. For instance, if a person wants to make money and live happily at the moment, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Why is the basic opportunity structure of this country so reliant of Government, and is this detrimental to individuals? Does the government even have a right to put things on the table for us, and can it do so effectively?

These are all core questions which largely seem to be asked by the OP himself. Answer them.

Ignorance isn't all in the schools, but it is in some people.

It's in all people to a greater or lesser extent, ignorance is just the lack of knowledge and no one is omniscient. You seem incredibly ignorant about economics, for example.

**Coodles** · 09-27-2007, 11:03 AM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Originally posted by KA0Z R4VR

The only flaw is *you* as a person not taking the responsibility that *you* should take to ensure a nice lifestyle. They provide the tools; USE THEM.

Ahh so the flaw is me?

they can provide all they want, thats fine but understand with unbearable conditions it has lead to depression, loss of sleep,lots of things thats arent "healthy"

maybe i might be more enticed to "take responisbility" when im met with some reasonable living conditions.

i know im not the only one out there that has suffered, and it pains me to see that people dont understand what iam saying here.

what im trying to get acrossed to people[wether it works or not] is that you may be sitting in your room studying having something nice to drink.

well.

try studying when your house smells rancid because your food has gone bad because we couldnt get enough money for electric.

try waking up in 90 degree or more weather with no air conditioner not even a fan.

you may say this isnt anything its not what in your mind is considered critical thinking.

well next time a human life suffering and being malnourished isnt something worth critical thinking, then i might see your view.

**devonin** · 09-27-2007, 12:10 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

So what exactly is your point here? The entire OP seems to be you bitching about the fact that you have to get a degree in order to have a job that requires you to have a degree.

Or more to the point, you seem to be claiming that you already possess -all- the skills and knowledge necessary to acquire a degree in something like Hardware Systems Management, and thus think going to school is a waste of your time.

One of the largest misunderstandings about the education system among people who don't like it, is that the sole purpose of the education system is to give you the individual knowledge of subject matter. History is to teach you about historical events only. Biology is to teach you about the workings of the living world only. To someone like you who thinks they have some highly marketable skillset (I think you highly overestimate that by the way) you view the "forced" acquisition of this wasted knowledge as a waste of your time.

The problem is that these courses aren't just designed to impart the specific knoweldge of the subject matter, they are also designed to train you in various skills that are important, but have nothing to do with the subject directly. I'm a historian. Almost -no- job I get with my degree will care one bit for my factual knowledge of British History, it cares about the skills I learned, developed and honed while getting the degree.

The secondary (Or primary depending on your view) purpose of the education system is to develop skills. The skill to think critically, the skill to communicate effectively, the skill to conduct research, to prove a thesis.

If you applied to this "high-paying" job you are positive you can get because you can take a computer apart and put it back together (As an aside, I can do that as well, and if I applied for a job in IT, I would be laughed at) with the quality of writing and communication you've demonstrated in this post, it woudln't matter if you -did- have the degree, you still wouldn't get hired.

Your overuse of profanity, your spelling and grammatical errors, the terrible flow of your ideas, your inability to communicate in an effective manner, all of these are failings that the education system is designed to educate you out of.

Education -is- a choice, it is perfectly optional. You don't have to go if you don't want to. Your problem is you want to have your cake and eat it too. You can't say "Waah, school is stupid, I don't want to do it, but I -do- want a very high paying job in a technical field starting right up there." There are many jobs that are perfectly attainable without a college degree that after enough time and additional training make rather a lot of money.

A Manager at McDonalds makes more money per year than a new teacher does, and teachers had to go through generally 6 years more education at their own expense to get that job.

While your issues with social programs, and your apparant view that the government is somehow deliberately seeking to keep impoverished people living below the poverty line are potentially worth a seperate discussion, the overarching thrust of your OP makes me suggest to you that you simply don't get what the education system is trying to do for you, and from that stems your dissatisfaction.

**KilikOdagawa** · 09-27-2007, 01:16 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

I can understand what you're saying. I'm in the same grade as you are. *But someone that stands out a little more in the higher ranks.* Since I don't know how to do the whole splitting of a quote, I'll just say this. I've never studied once in my life. I'm basically a straight A student with a lack of motivation. Intelligence may not be specifically someone's fault, BUT it is partially in the way a brain works.

It's situations like the OP that make me happy to be in the situation I am. I fell you dude. My dad is having to raise my brother and I on low income. *As it stands less than 800 a week* We still seem to get by. Ramen is a popular dish here because it is cheap and is filling.

I can also relate to you on this, why are we being bludgeoned with all of this unimportant information that we will probably never use in the profession of our choice? I mean look at the Japs. All their life they have to follow one profession. That is what they go to school for. That is why they are so good at what they do. That is why they have 2nd best economy IN THE WORLD. We have the first because we have good relations in the government. So it seems to me that no one here can relate to you (that has posted so far), therefore are unable to truly understand your situation. Which may not be your mother's fault. It might have happened a long time ago. It's hard to get a good education on a good income. But you have to try. That's all you can do. I know it'll be hard but you can still get good grades and receive that worker's permit you've been wanting.

Low class families are entrapped. No matter how anyone argues it, only those who are currently caught in that web know the truth. I want someone to prove me wrong.

**devonin** · 09-27-2007, 02:17 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

I've lived with my mother and sister in a one bedroom apartment, sleeping on the couch, living off a welfare check, eating Macaroni and Cheese instead of ramen. So your objection that I can't relate to being a low-income family fails right there, would you care to object on different grounds?

**Kilroy_x** · 09-27-2007, 02:18 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Originally posted by devonin

Education -is- a choice, it is perfectly optional. You don't have to go if you don't want to.

He doesn't fluidly distinguish between k-12 and university education, your statement is selectively true based on which is in question.

While your issues with social programs, and your apparant view that the government is somehow deliberately seeking to keep impoverished people living below the poverty line are potentially worth a seperate discussion, the overarching thrust of your OP makes me suggest to you that you simply don't get what the education system is trying to do for you, and from that stems your dissatisfaction.

It seemed to me he was simply saying that actions on the part of the Government -do- keep poor people poor, not necessarily that it was intentional.

**Kilroy_x** · 09-27-2007, 02:18 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Originally posted by KilikOdagawa

We have the first because we have good relations in the government.

...what?

**devonin** · 09-27-2007, 02:19 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

He doesn't fluidly distinguish between k-12 and university education, your statement is selectively true based on which is in question.

He's talking about being able to get a job in IT, to me that sounds precisely like he's speaking about the college/university education.

**KA0Z R4VR** · 09-27-2007, 05:00 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

Originally posted by Kilroy_x

Some people are definitely "Just smart". Intelligence is for the most part an abstract construct anyways, but there are certainly child chess prodigies or mathematical savants who show profound skill in an area well before they ever formal training in it. The same is true of all variety of skills.

No, no one is just smart. Just becuse you can be a prodigy in chess does not mean you have an essential quick way of learning everything given to you. Although genius might be a term some might recognize as smart, it is only being used to describe the leve of thinking beyond that of a normal person.
I am saying no one is smart in the context of this example: computer assembly.

This is one of the most absurd statements I've ever heard. What goal are you even talking about, the goal of impressing a gaggle of idiot high school teachers whose positions are roughly equivalent to sinecures? If I want to learn about, for example, the philosophy of science, I can go to a library and pick up books by Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper. I can then read them, and given that I understand them I will probably give every indication that I understood them when I get in conversation with other knowledgeable individuals about the subject.

No, you are not impressing anyone; You are using the tools of education and information to use for *yourself* and when you get down to it, those "gaggle of idiots" are the ones who put in a good word for you to get into a high end university. If you think that learning is solely based on reading books, then you are sadly mistaken. We gain effieciancy through practice. Surely, just becuase you read a book on philiosphy it does not make you effieciant in its practices.

Chance, maybe. Resources or treatment? Maybe not.

Chance, indef. Resources, more than likely. Treatmeant, probable. School is school. If you are mistreated for what ever reason, it does not prevent you from acquiring the information. Resources are there. There are set standards in what you need to learn and when you need to learn them. A school hires teachers who have been given a degree which surely give them the credit to teach. Saying that there are no resources is absurd.

Actually it's closer to a constitutional republic, although the whole constitutional part is going away rather quickly.

Touche. Although we still do have a word, no matter how small it is, that goes into our governments actions.

What are you talking about, a $20,000 annual average salary for High School graduates? The amount of money spent per student on public education? In either of these instances what you are saying is nonsensical.

It is proven that grauates tend to make more money a year which means more money to suit a better life style or an even higher education. Again, the government invests money into the schools and teachers and programs all for the benefit of a child. $20,000 is a -reasonable- amount. Depending on the area, it could be more or less. The education they are giving you is a lower end option of college. You are learning criteria that specializes in a certain aspect of a field or corresponding study. Learning is not free.

There is a wealth of things to debate about. For instance, if a person wants to make money and live happily at the moment, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Why is the basic opportunity structure of this country so reliant of Government, and is this detrimental to individuals? Does the government even have a right to put things on the table for us, and can it do so effectively?

These are all core questions which largely seem to be asked by the OP himself. Answer them.

The governemtn is there for order among the peoples. All they do is give out the particular requirements needed for a better life style. If the government did not care, they would invest so much money into teaching kids. If they wanted to make people poor and keep them that way they would rather stop funding schools and enroll numerous people in unemployment where they can govern how much you make. Such a palce exists; This place is called Cuba.
They do have the right to lay everything out for us, but they are not going to beg for you to take it. It is up to you. they encourage that you study and stay in school so that you do not have to live in pverty, but they are not going to shove it down your throat; They will let you experience life without proper eduation in poverty because *you* did not listen to them otherwise.

It's in all people to a greater or lesser extent, ignorance is just the lack of knowledge and no one is omniscient. You seem incredibly ignorant about economics, for example.

I took US History AP my freshman year. I took World History AP my sophpmore year. I am taking US Government AP and American Economics AP this year. My knowledge on politics and economics is much more higher than where it should be, seeing how Government is a Senior Only class and I am a Junior. I love philosophy and politics along with economics and religion. The principals have passed down since early civilizations and have not changed. I understand these principals with extensive knowledge. To say I am ignorant in my major is baffling to say the least.

**somerndmguy** · 09-27-2007, 06:56 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

I will contribute what little I have.

The purpose of school isn't just so that you know facts, or figures, or memorize numbers. A good education will teach you how to use those facts, to analyze those figures, and to find out why things work instead of just having to memorize the fact that they do.

Almost nobody in the working world will require you to recite all the information you memorized about the French Revolution, for example. You will, however, have to solve problems and figure out what makes things work the way they do. Memorizing the quadratic formula in math is nice and all, but deriving the formula for yourself will teach you to see problems in a whole new way, and it will help you understand the problem.

Your own education is strictly under your control. Whether you choose to learn what others are trying to teach you is completely your decision, and nobody else's. Nobody can drill into your brain and fish out the knowledge in your head. What you know is strictly for you alone.

Yes, I'm positive that your situation will probably limit your ability to get a post-secondary education, and yes, this society basically runs on people with diplomas and certificates, but personally, if you at least try to broaden your knowledge and your own education, you'll do infinitely better than others who haven't attended school at all.

My two cents. I stand ready for its surgical dissection.

**Enginuity** · 09-27-2007, 08:39 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

The ideal purpose of school is to prepare students for life later on, not teach them a whole bunch of details that no one remembers years down the road. What people should learn/remember from school isn't who the 27th president of the US is (assuming you are in the US), but what is important, is the process. The process consists of studying towards a goal, managing time, etc., things that are supposed to help you one day. 10 years down the road, you will no longer care that you got an A in history, but the process of studying in order to get an A in the class becomes something you are familiar with. School is intended (directly or indirectly) to teach the population the basics of a language (so people can interact, write, read, in society), study/work habits (you probably cannot get a work permit without having sufficient grades, because you have not shown the ability, at least to the schools, to do everything that you have been asked to do), social skills (creating an environment where you can meet people your age), etc.

Grades are not so important, in theory. It is important to other people (bosses, college admissions people), because it is one of the few things that have a chance at determining the kind of person you are, not that it is always accurate.

Yeah, kids/students in low-income families probably have less, if any motivation to do well in school, especially when there are many other things that are more immediately important, ex. eating. The people who really care about fixing these problems do not have the capabilities to do it, the people who say they are going to fix these problems, and have the capability (monetary resources) do not care about fixing them (at least in the large scale). Honestly, who is going to care about low-income families? Other people either are not that well off, or don't feel that other people are important (perhaps thinking that it is/was their own fault that they are in the situation). The only people who can, and has attempted, to do anything permanent is the government. Charities and such only go so far. The government is far from perfect.

Put it this way. Say you (Coodles, or anyone who is in his situation) suddenly receive a large sum of money, so that it fixes your immediate living problems. Would you have the motivation to help others who are still in that situation, and would you actually help others who are in the situation (people you do not have any emotional/social attachment to)? Idealistically if you were very philantrophic, you would say yes, but as a human, I really doubt that it would happen.

Btw, KA0Z R4VR, you don't have a major... you are in high school (judging from your statements). In addition, just because you are taking these AP classes, does not make you an expert in government and stuff. Honestly, this is the American school system we are talking about. Also, there is no real purpose of saying that you are ahead of where you should be; what defines where you should be? If you think the standards define that, then you are letting yourself be held back by low standards.

Now, for college instruction or whatnot... I mean, a lot of the difference between the salary differences is in part simply due to differences in the job choices available with certain educations, but I think if someone takes the effort to get through a 4-year education, no matter how lazy/smart they are, or regardless of the school they go to, they must have gone through a decent amount of work from time to time, so it makes them more capable of handling work at a job, so it probably increases their chance of getting a promotion or something. As an aside, do people really do work at work (all the time, anyway?), as I have heard more than one instance of people doing other stuff (chatting online, facebook, etc.) while they are on paid time.

**tsugomaru** · 09-27-2007, 10:33 PM

Re: my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

The classes you are taking is a poor indicator of what you can do. I can brag about all the AP classes that I'm taking, but if I don't have the goods to show, it might as well be said that I'm not bright. Backing your statements with a list of your classes is not a very good way to prove your facts. I cannot say that Hydrogen is an element because I'm taking AP Chemistry.

That's not to say you aren't smart, because I believe you are, you're just using all the wrong reasons to back up your argument. And it's one of my pet peeves.

~Tsugomaru

my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

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