So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

double post because holy god we're arguing about how to enjoy Stepmania

although come to think of it, the anime simfile community and the other Stepmania communities never really interacted with each other for the most part, we all just kept to ourselves back then

I guess it's kind of cool even a couple people care about this game enough to argue tooth and nail about it

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Basically, you're saying that it poisons newer players into thinking that those stepfiles are the right way to play. I'm not sure how true it is, since I started with all sorts of terrible files having played way back in 2003, and to this day I enjoy a handful of the more complex stepfiles that have come out. But I see your argument and I guess a number of people will initially be averse to "good" stepfiles because it's not what they originally knew. I just have a little bit of faith that a lot of them will come around as they progress as players, should they choose to invest themselves that much in the game at all. And if they don't, then... no loss :P

By the way, I'm not sure how good a job I've done of it, but it's my intent not to argue about how to enjoy Stepmania; my argument is that there's no right way to enjoy it at all. The best way to do it is the way that brings the best experience. At least, that's my opinion.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

This would be really cool. I'm certain that the biggest reason FFR is so big and active is the centralized community. Stepmania could really use a huge forum community (and I don't mean Stepmania.com) which isn't poisoned by a bunch of aging retired players with disdain for everyone who still finds fun in a music game.

I had a good idea about creating this forum. Rather than starting with it blank, we could copy over a bunch of big, popular threads. The SM Scores thread, some of the more important pack threads from OD/ODI/SM/KBO/FFR/GS, some individual scores threads, and so on. This would be great for searching for stuff, but it would also give the community a kickstart. The usernames would have to be changed (so for instance a post by leonid becomes a post by _leonid) but we'd let someone "claim" their old posts if they create an account with the same name (although ideally the mods would check these to make sure you don't get some ass signing up as every famous player ever). So that way veteran SM-community members have a small incentive to join: coming in as your old username gives you a whole bunch of free posts.


PS: I've never really been in a huge SM community. I was part of the FFR community for most of the time since I started playing, and there was always an SM component to it, but I guess I only got the feeling of how big SM was from all the youtube videos and amazing scores out there. I'd definitely appreciate a place to talk about the game and share files and the scores that might not be even close to world-class.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

pretty legit read nick


The only standard we have here as an "elitist" group is what caters to our liking. I much rather play a file that's been very well thought out and has good structure, patterns, layering, relevance etc. but that's only to our expert level of play. Most new players only really look for structure, something catchy and that's really fluent and fun to play. It's a different crowd for sure.

Let's say we all went back to our roots and made harder pad files with full difficulties, bringin' 2004 in style again or some shit. Lots more people would probably make it to FFR and other communities instead of being shut down by hard dump files as we call them and discourage playing any further.


There is such a thing as a well-structured file with basic guidelines, regardless of difficulty. Just because we made a bunch of theories for harder "artful" simfiles, doesn't mean those shouldn't apply to easier files. Look at Macgravel's Cry for You pad file. Holy shit that file owns and it's fun as dicks; but it's piss easy. Structure wise it's spot on and has a bunch of elements that make it replayable which include some sort of pitch relevancy and consistency. I guess you could say QED's files don't have that structure.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I still play Macgravel's Cry for You file, owns so ****ing HARD

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Well, i'm coming back to this thread now to talk about some things that i'm planning to do, and it's nice that people actually bothered to reply (Except Lain.) and people like Long-bowed Chariot appeared out of nowhere to voice their opinion which was good too.

I'm going to be leading the next big community pack for Otaku's Dream which will be the 7th Anime Mix but i'm going to be doing it a bit differently this time in a sense that, there's no longer going to be a judging panel for the songs (In other words, no "quality control" but I don't really think that's the right word to say for this, since the mix is still going to be quality none-the-less.), but basically anything past sync will be up to the simfile author to step.

Because if you think about it, it seems kind of silly to be taking other people's OPINIONS as a factor on whether this person's simfile (which they submitted with the intent that it was fun for them, and it met their standards for what an enjoyable simfile would be) is good or not, so i'm going to abolish that.

Obviously this means that the mix will most likely end up with a bunch of files that may not exactly be up to the "standards" of some of the people here who have been stepping for many years, but to be honest, that shouldn't really matter. And as Chariot said, I think it would be a better idea to be able to introduce new people to this game by virtue of their own decision, so if they want to figure out how to make their simfiles like we do, then that's good, and if they don't, then that's fine too. Also there is no rush for them to start making simfiles like ours anyways, so it's quite possible that they might end up curious to find out how to change their steps in the future as well as they keep playing the game and improving.

But remember, this whole idea is focused on getting new people interested, so even though it is evident that there will be simfiles in the mix that nobody HERE will play, i'm sure that the people who submitted them will be happy that they did, in addition to putting it out to the public as well, meaning that it might attract the attention of another new person of relatively similar skill level, but either way, this will encourage new people to participate which is the ultimate goal that I believe I(we?) are aiming for.

And also, there's a lot of things that need improvement in terms of program-wise features as well like lots of people have said (Ex. Osu style song database and what not), but I think this pack idea would probably be a good start to attracting new people. I'm not saying for all future packs to adopt this admission style but I do think it's a decent idea to consider if you (the pack creator), wish to increase your pack's popularity.

There's a lot of other things i'd like to or could write on this also (About QED in particular, and song subjectivity) but right now I don't feel like doing it so i'll leave this here for now and hopefully

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I'm not really going to hop into the ongoing back-n-forth debate, but I'm just going to comment on the OP. This is pretty much the reason why I moved over to pad files. There is a degree of freedom available in the pad community that isn't necessarily available in the keyboard community. Things don't have to be super-technical or rainbowy---they just have to be fun, and following the song exactly is not a requirement. The current state of the keyboard community is just too restrictive for my tastes.

Now for a mini nostalgia rant. I really miss the days of KBMP, F4, etc. Things were less stressful then. I don't know how likely it is to bring those times back. We've advanced too far, really. The perfect time to get into SM was five years ago. Today, not so much.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

gotta bring back community index packs

it's nice people are willing to try and bring back simplified stepmania, but are we really able to at this point? We've all gotten so stupidly good at the game those kinds of files aren't fun anymore.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

1st part: Yes. The problem is every person who steps index has their own definition of index. And the problem with that is they disagree with others rather than be open to newer definitions. I love stepping index and I play all kinds of files that are "indexable," whether they are technically fast pad files, old school index, or files that people claim aren't index. People need to realize that there is no right definition to an index file, and that there's a difference between an index file and an indexable file.

As for your last sentence, you speak for yourself. I myself along with others still enjoy files from 2007 and 2007, and some may even find them more fun than the new ones. We're trying to stray from the idea that there's no right way of stepping. You are speaking in terms of skill though. Who said a file has to be hard to be fun? I know plenty of pro players who still find enjoyment in playing relatively easy songs.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

I'm speaking of most people here really. there was a time where people would still play older packs but less so now

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

It's hard to make general statements like this, and I'm starting to realize this. People argue over files being liked, and packs being played. But there's no 100% correct way of seeing what people actually like and play. You could conduct a test, but people could lie too. Knowing that a community always has trolls, there will be someone there to try and influence the results. And if even if you were right, less isn't defined, and can't be defined. It could still be more compared to newer packs, even though it's less than before.

We really should focus on actual physical facts from the past and use them to plan a better future. At least in my opinion.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Skimmed my way through this thread. I really wanted to take the time post something but I would like to believe that the majority of what I would like to say has already been covered to some extent. I will however make a few quick points out of some of these latest posts.

To be honest, I only play the older packs. Maybe I'm just too oldschool for these young kids now, but that is what I usually play. Not that I don't try the newer stuff, I just enjoy the older stuff a whole lot more.

The golden age... I miss it too.


One thing, that I'm just going to stick in here; I have a few files, made years ago, that I've just been holding onto to release at some time. Created, for the most part, in an older style. I wanted to originally release them a log time ago in a small pack but based on opinions and feedback it appeared as though no one would really enjoy them other than myself and maybe a few other people. Some of these files were eventually submitted to packs, only one (China Junk) ever "made it", but for the most part I've kept them to myself and a few friends who I had help test them. Based on the feedback from this thread I'm wondering if I should compile my work and release them.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

It seems like everybody in this thread agrees that files these days are too focused on technical perfection, so the question is, why is everybody still releasing these files?

I remember I submitted a few things to the Astronomic Metal Collection 2 and N.T.M rejected them all outright for not having any pitch relevancy. In the end SulferDragon accepted some of them (thanks man). That's when I realized that "perfect" files had taken over, and I pretty much gave up trying to promote my files on here by submitting them to packs. However, I released all my files on stepmania.com and they have a good amount of downloads.

It would be nice to see some packs with easier files, because the hand-and-crossover-laden files these days are too darn hard for an arrow-key player like me.

Re: So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

Great ideas here.

The decline of Stepmania and games like FFR are really odd to me too -- a game like FFR was popular independent of Dance Dance Revolution. In fact, its popularity existed seemingly in spite of DDR. SM's popularity, in turn, feeds off of FFR's popularity. What, then, caused the decline of popularity in games like FFR and KeyBeatOnline? Several things.

DDR was the source of a lot of activity in the Stepmania community. But DDR, in the public's mind, was a gimmick. You don't double down on that sort of thing -- yo-yos, as you've noticed, have not recovered to the levels of their initial fad popularity. DDR's the same way. And given that arcades in general are dying, the likelihood of DDR springing back from recovery is unlikely. Okay, there are home sales. But home play isn't competitive, and you need that kind of arcade competition to make a scene that ignites the kind of community spark we once had.

Unfortunately for us though, music games in general are a sort of fad. They're driven in part by novelty value. For most people, even something as solid as KeyBeat doesn't register as "wow, this is a great engine." It registers as "okay, I've seen this shit before."

But the biggest reason, I think -- and this is total speculation -- that it's because people are exploring the internet less. Internet forums in general are on the decline; why use forums when you can use facebook? Or reddit, even? And that's what the average person in FFR's age demographic is going to do. When they get into "goof off mode", their default location is Facebook. And, surprise, that's also where all of their goof offy flash games are. They can't use Facebook? iPhone. Doesn't matter. Aggregator websites are becoming the future. People are choosing instead to waste their time on large, centralized means of communication like facebook, YouTube, digg, reddit, and so on.

If you don't believe me, you can look at the decline of websites like SomethingAwful, GameFAQs, and Newgrounds. You may think they're different, but they all share a similar style of forum-like interaction. They all have a website community with resident popular kids.

If the casual-yet-competitive niche that FFR, Stepmania and KBO occupy is to stay popular well into the 2010s, they will need strong, detailed Facebook apps. Period. I severely doubt anything else is going to revive them into popularity.