NSane Presents: The Timing System!

[NSane]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

About combo scoring: how about we shorten the perf/good windows, but make the hit window the same size by filling in the rest with averages? Nobody wants averages, so that'd provide a huge penalty against mashing on high judges, but the combo would be the same whatever judgment you were using, so it would be a lot less frustrating to try to FC stuff.

I guess good windows should be ~twice the size of the perfect window, so maybe we could do something like
normal: AGPPPGG
strict: AAGPPGA
flawless: AAGPGAA

Yeah, I didn't mess with the miss frame at all. So only Perf / Good / Average are different.

[Go_Oilers_Go]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

This is good. These new timing systems should essentially negate button mashing, right?

[mhss1992]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

Awesome.
And mirror will be public? Cool!

[X Seraphim X]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

I can't wait!! This will make somethings easier and other things more of a challenge for me

[stargroup]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

oh miss frame wasn't affected

that changes things

carry on

[TC_Cyrenics]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

What I'm essentially understanding is that Flawless is a substitute for MA. It's a little disturbing, because it's a sign that the game is starting to become more and more like an online version of Stepmania, but not as fluid or widely known. There are some inherent problems with the system, and I think Patashu touched on the basics of some of them. Here's my take.

The fact that frames decide the accuracy rather than a set system like in SM make it virtually impossible to Flawless AAA anything more than like, Power or Free Space on a consistent basis. It's the same case with when people tried to AAA songs before the avmiss fix. You could appear to nail the frame perfectly, but hard as you tried, if you were even the tiniest bit off, you had a great chance of hitting the incorrect frame and getting docked.

Also, Synthlight files will be pretty much un-AAAable under the Flawless setting. It was challenging enough to AAA them under the regular timing, with their offbeat notes and terrible syncing, but having to hit a single frame for over 500 notes won't happen on these things. As few AAAs as they have already (SSSG v1, for example, still has like under 200, iirc), it'll be maybe 1 or 2 at the most under Flawless, even giving people months to do it.

I just don't see how it makes things more fun, especially when the challenge factor is so heavily based on luck and robot-like reflexes. Even at the moment, many aspects of FFR PA have their difficulties in hitting frames right so they register as perfect and not good. Sure, the window is greater on normal mode, but it's still a flawed system.

What I suggest is moving toward a 90-frame system, and having the judgments look like this.

Normal: AAGGGGPPPPPPPPPGGGGAA
Strict: AAAGGGGPPPPPPPGGGGAAA
Flawless: AAAAGGGGPPPPPGGGGAAAAA

Normal carries about a 0.1 second window for perfects, which is exactly what FFR currently allows. It's a 0.05 second room for error either way. The good frames span about 0.088 seconds, and the average frames span 0.044. It's a total window of 0.233333, which is about as much as the current FFR window.

For Strict, two average frames are added, one on each side, and two perfect frames are removed from the middle. Then, everything collapses back in on itself to keep the overall window size constant.

For Flawless, take Strict, and do the same thing one more time.

While it's not a perfect system, it provides a somewhat more clean interface and helps the player feel more in control of their accuracy as opposed to the current FFR tables.

[awein999]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

well I see how it makes things more fun. I'm looking forward to it and I can't wait to try to AAA songs under strict and flawless. Like you said if only 1 or 2 people can AAA a song that hundreds usually have under normal ffr, than it is very fun to try to become one of those people. You said it's "disturbing" because it's becoming more like stepmania. Personally I don't see what's "disturbing" about it, it's an added challenge.

and it is different from sm because it has frames like you said. I don't understand you say you don't want it to be like sm but then you suggest it to change so it's more like sm....either way they are two very different games

[qqwref]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

What I suggest is moving toward a 90-frame system, and having the judgments look like this.

Problem with 90fps (or really anything other than 30): every song would have to be reconverted, if you'd want notes to still be rhythmically accurate. Considering there are some 850 files ingame, this would be a huge amount of work. Also, you'd have to ask the question of whether it really is the same to AAA under the old and the new system - having notes snapped to 1/90ths of a second instead of 1/30ths might make some songs easier to AAA because you have more room for error on notes that originally had to be moved pretty far to fit in a frame. I guess lag would also be an issue - my old computer used to have problem with 30fps low-quality, so trying to play on 90fps would be quite a problem for some people.

That said, I think it'd be really cool to see FFR converted to 90fps, and I do like your window breakdowns (going down to a 1-frame (30fps) perfect window is extremely problematic, whereas a 5-frame or even 3-frame (on 90fps) window is a lot more reasonable given that arrows are confined to integer frames). It would probably be a lot less frustrating to try to AAA stuff on the higher judges, and having averages on both sides of the hit window would make a lot more sense too.

[Genisis]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

Gotta admit the new timing system seems interesting... I'm not going to complain about not having it as a non-subby considering I find it hard enough to get good PA on anything past VD as it is.

What excites me far more than anything is:

Also, I posted this for everyone to see to show that we are far from dead and that within the week, mirror and the speedmods as well as the old beta should be going public.

Whenever that does happen to go through. >.>

[Patashu]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

Is it possible for a flash animation to run at a logical 60/90 frames yet graphically display only 30 frames per second?

[mhss1992]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

There's a problem, though. A "flawless" AAA shouldn't be treated the same way as a "default" AAA, it wouldn't be fair. I think there should be extra bars in the FFR profiles for this.

[TC_Cyrenics]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

I only claim that it's disturbing because the admins were very reluctant to make the game seem more like an online SM, iirc. And while I'm personally saying that I don't like it all that much, if we are moving toward making it more like SM, why not take it all the way and change up the frame levels as well? It would make things so much more fluid and reasonable.

I'm not saying it's the way to go, or the revolutionary breakthrough of the decade. It's just an idea that popped into my head and I ran with it.

And Patashu, I'm not sure if it could run a logical 90/graphical 30, but it's not really what I meant. Why not display it at the full 90 frames graphically? Is that what qqwref is talking about with the lag and computer problems?

Anyway, I'm a little bit of a mixed bag about the whole system NSane is bringing out. Sure, it's cool, but there are just several flaws that cripple it, like the limitations that 30fps bring to the table.

[Adamaja456]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

There's a problem, though. A "flawless" AAA shouldn't be treated the same way as a "default" AAA, it wouldn't be fair. I think there should be extra bars in the FFR profiles for this.

id rather their not be extra bars at all for the new timing settings =/

the sad thing about the way i play is once i aaa a song, i will never play it again, and so even though this would give me a chance to play those songs over again, i probably wont use it just because i want to keep my games played low on the songs(495 attempts to AAA CIA Rave, so i wouldnt want to play it on a more difficult timing window because it would increase my games played on that song)

i sound so anal about my ffrz jesus hah

[jimerax]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

PA on flawless = MA

yes it is

[NSane]

Re: NSane Presents: The Timing System!

PA on flawless = MA

yes it is

PA on Flawless is much harder than MA imo.