Another Religion Thread... Cause its fun.

[SUSUGAM]

Ok... two questions for christianity. Just looking for some honest opinions / bible mumbo gumbo :D


1) If those who do not beleive that christ is the savior, or rather do not beleive in god at all go to hell... does this mean all people before Jesus was alive got automatic passes to hell?

If you said this is explained because jesus was forgiving them with his death... then...

2) After his death... if a person is never exposed to christian beleifs... does he also automatically go to hell? Because he certainly wouldnt make up the religion on his own accord...

(People raised in non-christian comunities, who may never leave them)

So in turn... is most everyones religion not simply which religion is bestowed upon them at a young age and merely brainwashed to become fact/truth in their eyes? Religion = tradition? Or is a repeatedly re-translated the books the best foundation for a persons style of living and beleif system...

I don't know.

But I'd like to.


Edit: Oh yeah... another note... eternity of suffering and misery in exchange for 60-80 years of ignorance? DO you see any structural flaw here? Sigh. Re-analyze.

[fusi0n]

you aren't going to find the answer in the flashflashrevolution forums.

[SUSUGAM]

But i can try!!!!!!

[fusi0n]

you're right

[SUSUGAM]

Ok ok... copy and paste time!!! whats a major christian site?!?!

;D

[VxDx]

1) If those who do not beleive that christ is the savior, or rather do not beleive in god at all go to hell... does this mean all people before Jesus was alive got automatic passes to hell?

If you said this is explained because jesus was forgiving them with his death... then...

2) After his death... if a person is never exposed to christian beleifs... does he also automatically go to hell? Because he certainly wouldnt make up the religion on his own accord...

(People raised in non-christian comunities, who may never leave them)

So in turn... is most everyones religion not simply which religion is bestowed upon them at a young age and merely brainwashed to become fact/truth in their eyes? Religion = tradition? Or is a repeatedly re-translated the books the best foundation for a persons style of living and beleif system...

I don't know.

But I'd like to.

1) Jesus's death allowed them to enter heaven.
2) No.
2b) People often change their religion during the course of their life.

the bible is a guide. where, besides its teachings, would morality be taught?

[SUSUGAM]

People do change... but MANY don't, and NO isnt a very good answer to 2... sigh, care to explain?

What happens? You are reborn witha new chance to have christianity brought upon you? Or maybe you are put in a room with a bible and a playboy... and if you pick the wrong one, you are banished.

heh.

[VxDx]

you don't have to be christian to go to heaven. god is compassionate.

[SUSUGAM]

Hmm... thats not what Catholic's are telling me...

And also... people made the bible... and people also made morality... neither just appeared. Morality existed WAY before the bible.

[VxDx]

And also... people made the bible... and people also made morality... neither just appeared. Morality existed WAY before the bible.

what's your point? people wrote the bible, but they didn't invent the stories.

[GuidoHunter]

When it comes to religion, most of us are instilled with the fundamental knowledge as young children, and the church-going after that is supposed to bolster your beliefs and have you accept it yourself.

When we're very young, we have naive beliefs that we follow because we are supposed to. The real test of faith is whether or not you still follow those beliefs when you get old enough to really think about it. Therefore, there really isn't any "brainwashing" involved, but rather laying the foundation.

Regarding the pre-Christ people, they just had a brief respite in Purgatory until He died (unless they lived a life meritorious of hell).

Regarding the group in your number 2, I can say Southern Baptists would answer a resounding "YES", but I like to believe in a more merciful result that would probably include Purgatory. I'll have to check the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a definite answer and get back on that.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[GuidoHunter]

people made the bible

People WROTE the Bible, but they were inspired by God. Therefore, it can be taken as God's word, and nothing short of it.

you don't have to be christian to go to heaven. god is compassionate.

Not according to Jesus, when he said something along the lines of "None shall enter the kingdom of Heaven except through me".

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[SUSUGAM]

at least you gave a sensible answer :) without the usual "im christian im right" ring... ;)

Also, what about the hell thing... i slapped it in my first post earlier, a lifetime of ignorance payed for by an eternity in hell?... How is this merciful?


edit - sp

[SUSUGAM]

And also... people made the bible... and people also made morality... neither just appeared. Morality existed WAY before the bible.

what's your point? people wrote the bible, but they didn't invent the stories.


The stories did not invent morality... so they are not the only things to teach it.

[SUSUGAM]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm


Mmmmm, burn those sins from their souls...

So, if you never know that christianity exists... you must endure the most terrible pain imaginable... YAY MERCY!

[GuidoHunter]

The stories did not invent morality... so they are not the only things to teach it.

However, for Christians, the Bible is the only set of moral standards that one needs to follow.

I'm still trying to work on the hell/ignorance thing. However, you're right; that doesn't seem very merciful, and that's where I disagree with many of my Baptist friends.

Note for the "I'm Christian; I'm right" comment: Hearing that absolutely sickens me. This is a thread about Christianity, and I'm trying to give responses based on generally accepted Christian beliefs (although some may be a little weird to non-Catholics), so I may make my statements matter-of-factly. However, I recognize and respect other views, which is a luxury I didn't receive growing up in one of the most Baptist towns in the nation (Waco, Texas). Many of my friends had the "No, you're wrong, I'm right" mentality, and it is disgusting. I hope to not see it in this thread.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[GuidoHunter]

Purgatory is not typically viewed as a place of punishment. There are references to a "purifying fire", but it is a test of purity, not punishment for sins. The "torment" involved in Purgatory is simply the separation from God, but even that will be remitted once the soul is pure enough to enter heaven. Purgatory is simply a holding place. You're guaranteed admission into heaven once there, but you need to "clean up" before you enter, and you can do this with the help of the prayers of the living.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[SUSUGAM]

I'm not a fan of it either... and I'm in east Texas... where we have a crapload of "I'm right you're wrong" action... it's annoyin. Also, Im not out to bash christianity, I'm just asking about some of its weakpoints / personal unknowns

[SUSUGAM]

So are you saying everyone goes to heaven? If they go through purgatory? Or rather... does everyone make it to purgatory?

[GuidoHunter]

So are you saying everyone goes to heaven? If they go through purgatory? Or rather... does everyone make it to purgatory?

No. If you deserve to go to hell, you go straight to hell, do not go to Purgatory, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. If you're worthy of getting into heaven, you first go to purgatory, sit there while you clean up your venial (small) sins, then get admitted into heaven as a pure soul worthy of standing in the presence of God. If you go to Purgatory, though, you do have guaranteed admittance into heaven. You get there once you've cleaned up or once Christ came back to earth for the final judgment.

Side note: Is this just between Susugam and me, or is just past everyone's bedtime?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[SUSUGAM]

dunno... haha, isnt it from the bible that "all sin is equal in the eyes of god"? and are small since just the non-deadly ones?

Either way... some sins deem one of hellborn status? And others do not... why would the lesser ones matter, if they can be removed in purgatory. Why not commit them without fear?



Edit - terrible grammar... im tired.

[GuidoHunter]

Of course, you shouldn't ask me. Go straight to the man himself.

Jesus Christ's xanga: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Jesus__Christ

haha, man....

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[SUSUGAM]

Oh my. ;D

[GuidoHunter]

You still have to be repentant for sins at the time of death (judgment), so if you went willy-nilly with venial sins, it doesn't seem you'd be very sorry for them. Plus, sinning without remorse is actively turning from God and His word, which promotes your adventures to mortal sin status.

I'd be interested in knowing where that is in the Bible, and the context in which it is. All sin is bad, but some sins (mortal ones) create a deep chasm between you and God which can be repaired, but is more noticeable. Even very pious people commit small sins, which are bad, but are more easily forgiven. Kicking dirt in your little brother's face carries a little less weight than committing genocide. Mortal sins can get you a big, fat "rejected from heaven" stamp on your forehead, while venial sins are ones that can be more easily groomed off in Purgatory (or in confession in the form of contrition/indulgences).

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[deposition]

Ok... two questions for christianity. Just looking for some honest opinions / bible mumbo gumbo


1) If those who do not beleive that christ is the savior, or rather do not beleive in god at all go to hell... does this mean all people before Jesus was alive got automatic passes to hell?

If you said this is explained because jesus was forgiving them with his death... then...

2) After his death... if a person is never exposed to christian beleifs... does he also automatically go to hell? Because he certainly wouldnt make up the religion on his own accord...

(People raised in non-christian comunities, who may never leave them)

So in turn... is most everyones religion not simply which religion is bestowed upon them at a young age and merely brainwashed to become fact/truth in their eyes? Religion = tradition? Or is a repeatedly re-translated the books the best foundation for a persons style of living and beleif system...

I don't know.

But I'd like to.



1.)Even major church figueres say that the bible is a book of hypocrisy. It says that the only way to heaven is though jesus... but b4 jesus of couse everyone went to heaven, thus the story of satan becoming a fallen angel ect.

2.)/2b..) accourding to the bible if you dont believe in jesus that is a major sin and you will go to hell. It also says that gods love is infinate. although if you have one little sin b4 u die he wants you to have eternal missory and suffering..

oposed to a mass murder who asks for forgiveness once who would live in heaven

Seems like a design flaw to me.. ecpecially from something that is so called perfect

[GuidoHunter]

Umm......what?

What major church figure said the Bible was full of hypocrisy? The leader of the atheist church, perhaps, because no Christian church leader in his right mind would suggest something like that.

You then said "of couse[sic] everyone went to heaven" before Jesus, but made no efforts to say why except for trying to tie it to a completely irrelevant story about angels (whe existed before man, and never lived on earth; it wasn't created yet). Plus, God wasn't happy with a lot of people before Jesus' time, and he undoubtedly sent them to hell (i.e. the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, who were destroyed by a rain of sulfurous fire).

If God actually wanted everyone with one little sin to go to hell, Heaven would have about three human occupants; that would be pretty contradictory to his compassion.

Hooray for incoherent sentence fragments....
When you die, you are also judged by your works on earth, although it is possible for a mass murderer to be truly penitent and eventually get into heaven.

You see a "design flaw" because you don't fully understand the Christian faith. I don't understand it well enough, but I know people that do (friends/family/priests), and they won't hesitate to answer all of your questions with commplete certainty because, with the right amount of faith, Christianity is perfect.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[fusi0n]

lets hear it for another religion thread! <('.'<) (>'.')>

[deposition]

To lazy to fund people names but a church leader guy did say that..the bible does constidict its self quite a bit..

And about god judging you and all, im just saying that the bible says if you have any sin before you die you go to hell.. and if you ask for forgivveness its all ok.

[chardish]

I am sick of the nonreligious asking about heaven and hell. Religion is NOT about heaven and hell, and what gets you into either. It's about loving God and making the best of your time on Earth. As a Christian, I believe that if you make the best effort you can to live a Christian life, you're going to heaven. Period. If not, I don't know where you're going, and I don't pretend to know - that's up to God.

Love God. Talk to God. Make friends with God. Your goal as a Christian should be to continue Jesus' work on Earth, not to constantly worry about where you're headed when you're dead (and where others are headed too.)

About the Bible contradicting itself - God said different things at different times that people needed to hear. For instance, he told the early Israelites to make animal sacrifices to him probably because that's what they were used to doing with pagan gods. As time moves on, God is allowed to say different things.

[makaveli121212]

so what god said before may not be true today, is that right? because thats basically what you just said

[aleco]

maka: Yes.

1) If they believed in God I think they went to heaven, but I don't really know.
2)Every person has all they need to know to repent. They don't need to be taught it, so you can't say they didn't have a chance to become Christian. One exception is what happens when babies die.

We don't know a whole lot about stuff, so don't always try to find the answers.

Sin before dying? It doesn't matter. What matters is if you believe. All sins are equal, really. If you break one thing, you break them all.

Why is God so loving and yet sends so many to eternal torment? I have no clue. I'm not all-knowing.

[DracIV]

Aleco, we don't even know if anyone has ever been sent to eternal tomrent. For all we know, hell could be a ploy to keep people in check out of fear. Especially sinners.

[makaveli121212]

so what god said before may not be true today, is that right? because thats basically what you just said

so if that is true why would anything in the bible be true...just because many believers call the bible fact

[aleco]

Drac: It could. We don't know.

maka: It is still true, it's just not applied. It was needed at the time. But times have changed.

[makaveli121212]

i was implying that why would anything in the bible be true today

[aleco]

I can't give you the answer you want.

[VxDx]

for someone who believes so wholeheartedly in this, you sure don't have a lot of answers.

[aleco]

Who does?

[makaveli121212]

Who does?

what is up with this guy

[VxDx]

rhetorical questions are a defense mechanism used by those who don't want to realize the futility of their plight.

[makaveli121212]

i dont have pants on

[VxDx]

indeed

[UltimateSoul]

I don't believe God sends people to eternal torment for not believing in him.
I believe he judges based on the actions and merits of a person.
When the Bible says "the only way to heaven, is through me,"I believe this refers to act as he would want us to act, to mirror his actions.

[SUSUGAM]

Aleco, we don't even know if anyone has ever been sent to eternal tomrent. For all we know, hell could be a ploy to keep people in check out of fear. Especially sinners.

Wow... hell being a fear tactic?! Or was that the entire religion... Either way, wtf do you mean by... "the bible doesnt contradict itself! god just has different things at different times... which happend to be opposing..." this is what im getting out of what you said. If the bible is wrong once, then no other part can be held as fact. And i thought god was omnopresent... and impervious to time... how could he change his mind?

[aleco]

UltimateSoul: There is no way anyone can go to heaven by works. It's just impossible.
SUSUGAM: He doesn't change his mind. He doesn't contradict himself. He tells us what we need for when we need it.
If you misinterpret it....

[DracIV]

lol

I just realized that no one has thought to question whether or not Jesus was the son of god or just a fanatic who wanted to be remembered. That would be an interesting thing to discuss. Most of the contradictions in the Bible are between the Old Testament and the New Testament, changes in everything from attitude to worship. If you ask me, Christians worship Jesus a lot more than they worship their god. (But supposedly they are one in the same to prevent any extra gods or demigods from existing, even though they are also not one in the same at the same time to prevent a story contradiction).

[Laharl]

To answer part of the original questions posed in this thread, it is my religion's belief that those who never have a chance to learn about God will be taught in the afterlife, in a Spirit World. It is up to them whether or not to accept things there. Now, we don't exactly know what's going to go on in the Spirit World... like... how it's all supposed to pan out. It's supposedly harder to accept everything there then it would be if that person heard about it hear on earth, so apparently, it's something suttle.

[peregrine]

According to what I know of Dante's Divine Comedy (which has more or less all the elements of Cristian mythology in it) The way it's determined where you'll go is this:

pure souls, sinless, do-gooders (all have to be believers): Heaven

repenting sinners, desiring of forgiveness (still believers): Purgatory... eventually Heaven

unrepenting sinners, blasphemers, heretics, and good people who CHOOSE not to believe: Hell (9 different levels of hell, depending on particular kind of offence)

but what about people who never had the chance? Unbaptised babies, and people who never heard "the word": Limbo (defined as neither good or bad, just a neutral existence)

well, that's what I've gathered over the years, hope it's correct.

btw.. if any christians took offence to me calling it a mythology, let me explain... all the dogmatic rules and preachings of other humans is questionable, since mankind is imperfect and can therefore misinterpret God. I refer to all the minor details and stories as the mythology, your own personal beliefs and faith is the true part of the religion.

[aleco]

According to what I know of Dante's Divine Comedy (which has more or less all the elements of Cristian mythology in it) The way it's determined where you'll go is this:

pure souls, sinless, do-gooders (all have to be believers): Heaven

repenting sinners, desiring of forgiveness (still believers): Purgatory... eventually Heaven

unrepenting sinners, blasphemers, heretics, and good people who CHOOSE not to believe: Hell (9 different levels of hell, depending on particular kind of offence)

but what about people who never had the chance? Unbaptised babies, and people who never heard "the word": Limbo (defined as neither good or bad, just a neutral existence)

1)There are no sinless people. No one is perfect besides God.
2)One's who believe don't need purgatory.
3)I don't know what hell is like so I can't respond to that one.
4)Babies don't have a chance, but other people do. God can be seen everywhere. Hearing definitely helps, but you don't need to hear.

I don't think anyone has an answer to some of these questions, it is beyond comprhension. What can we do?

[DracIV]

It most definately not beyond comprehension to many. We can explore it until we find a good answer.

[chardish]

Maka's arguments are extremely ironic because he supposes that abscence of proof of God somehow discredits God's existence.

You ignore faith wholeheartedly. I talk to God. I know he's there. Sometimes he talks back. Just because he doesn't seem real to you doesn't mean he doesn't seem real to me. And if life has taught you one thing, it should be that what seems obvious to some is completely hidden to others.

[makaveli121212]

Maka's arguments are extremely ironic because he supposes that abscence of proof of God somehow discredits God's existence.

really where did i say that

[UltimateSoul]

UltimateSoul: There is no way anyone can go to heaven by works. It's just impossible.
I believe there are several ways to get to heaven and that believing in God alone won't do it.The same may be true for works but then again these are just my beliefs.I think that if one did not believe in God but acted as God wanted him to, God would allow him easily.
There are good people all over the world and they all have different religions;being denied access to heaven for not believing is hard for me to accept.
To me, the greater belief is goodwill towards others.
I know this sounds idealistic but thats what I believe.

[DracIV]

Well guess what? You're all wrong. God doesn't exist, only fools would believe that. Your book is total lies. The faith of the Hindu is the only truth, and any who believe otherwise are doomed to a fate worse than your hell. All you have is a bias book of fake stories about a non-existant god. The Hindu path is the only way to achieve happiness. You cannot show any evidence that your faith is true, but the Hindu faith is the obvious truth no matter who you are.

(note: I'm not Hindu, but you guys are obviously all Christian, so I decided fighting fire with fire might be a fun debate)

[GuidoHunter]

REEEEEEE!!![loud buzzer noise] This is a thread about beliefs Christianity, so we're not debating the "real" religion.

Nobody needs to respond to that last comment.

However, if you are so inclined, make a different thread regarding that, Drac.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com/

[JustJono]

I believe any person who has good will toward others will go to heaven, no matter what religion he is of. I know that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, but Jesus is goodwill. He represents the good of the world.

[hollyholly]

[quote=SUSUGAM]
1) If those who do not beleive that christ is the savior, or rather do not beleive in god at all go to hell... does this mean all people before Jesus was alive got automatic passes to hell?

No. Those Jews alive before the birth of the Christ were forgiven because they believed in the coming of the Messiah. Those who did not believe the Messiah would come to erase their sins went to Hell, just as those who don't believe in him today will.

[Anonymous]

1) This is a difficult question, but not because I don't know if the answer is "No" or "Yes". It's obviously no. The tough part is explaining why. First of all, in times before Jesus, people identified themselves with God by offering burnt sacrifices. By offering these sacrifices in accordance with the Messianic Law specifically passed down by God himself, they were saved, via what is known as "The Old Covenant". This is specifically referred to in the Bible as such. The Old Covenant was only extended to Jews. When Jesus died to satisfy God's justice, the "New Covenant" was born, and people became saved under it, by identifying themselves with Jesus. Thus, the answer is a swift and total "no". At least according to Biblical Christian beliefs. Jews would say differently.

2) Wow, you really go for the tough questions, don't you? This is another toughie. This question is sorta akin to the questions "What if a child dies in the womb?" and "What if someone is mentally retarded to the point where they are unable to accept Christ?" There are many views on this, and as far as I know, the Bible doesn't specifically say one way or another. Thus I must supply my own opinion. No. Because these were never shared the Gospel with, it would be outside of God's justice to punish them. THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL, AND IS ONLY MY OWN OPINION. I hope this answers your questions.

[hitokiri_diesel]

Curse you FFR! Logging me out at the last minute :-(

[Jam930]

Ghosts - Spirits of the dead still on earth

Aliens - Organisms not on our planet

Santa Claus - Large man who flies in a sled pulled by raindeer, delivering presents to those good, once a year

God - Ultrapowerful man in the sky who made us. To question him is to be struck down and sent into a place with a lot of fire, pain, and bad stuff. He created the entire universe and could make your head pop off with a snap of his fingers.

Lochness Monster - Big reptile of some lake

Boogy Man - Dude who creeps around in the night scaring children


What to believe?

[Pennybags]

Ok... two questions for christianity. Just looking for some honest opinions / bible mumbo gumbo :D


1) If those who do not beleive that christ is the savior, or rather do not beleive in god at all go to hell... does this mean all people before Jesus was alive got automatic passes to hell?

Jesus saved everyone at the cross. No one goes to hell.

If you said this is explained because jesus was forgiving them with his death... then...

2) After his death... if a person is never exposed to christian beleifs... does he also automatically go to hell? Because he certainly wouldnt make up the religion on his own accord...

Read the answer to the first question 8)

[Treffpunkt]

This (http://www.relevantmagazine.com/boards) might be of some help...

Ask your questions in the God forum. They know what they're talking about.

[alainbryden]

Read Dante's Inferno. That's where all the 'rules' are.

[chardish]

Except it's poetry, and not an inspired document. (Inspired in the religious sense.)

[alainbryden]

I beg to differ...
pleasepleasepleasepleasePULEEZE!

enough of that. One can never get enough of bashing homogenous religion

[Anonymous]

Hitokiri diesel forgot about original sin, according to Catholics, all sould are sinful, regardless of anything, until baptism. The unofficial but popular answer is that all retarded/newborn/fetus/pre-jesus jews etc, go to Limbo for eternity. Limbo isnt in the bible, people made it up 600 hundred years ago or so, to explain some hard questions. Nice, how they can just make new stuff up. Of course, the bible was written several hundred years after jesus anyways.

And Jamie, I would go with the boogie man, that is one bad dude....or maybe lochness monster, she eats boats. But god can pop your head....Aliens have saucers, umm...ghosts are....well, they are invisible...and er...cold. Santa has reindeer though. I need to sit down for a while, this is deep.

wait, I AM sitting. Damn, heavy.

[Nightstar]

Damn, i am two for two, guest posts.

[aleco]

God gave humans free will to do as they choose. This means that some will go to hell.
If you don't believe in God or hate God, why would you want to spend eternity with God praising him?
So if you hate him, theres absolutely no reason to go to heaven, thus going to somewhere else.

[RajginKisaragi]

God gave humans free will to do as they choose. This means that some will go to hell.

No, this means that people can choose to do what they wish without having their lives tied down by religion.

If you don't believe in God or hate God,

Etc, etc... I hear that a lot. No matter where I go. Why can't highly religious people just shut-up and let us to decide on our own whether or not to follow up on what they're saying?

Listen, those that care will follow you. I'm not one of them, so stop with the God crap.

Ask your questions in the God forum. They know what they're talking about.

Do that.

[Anticrombie0909]

Ghosts - Spirits of the dead still on earth

Aliens - Organisms not on our planet

Santa Claus - Large man who flies in a sled pulled by raindeer, delivering presents to those good, once a year

God - Ultrapowerful man in the sky who made us. To question him is to be struck down and sent into a place with a lot of fire, pain, and bad stuff. He created the entire universe and could make your head pop off with a snap of his fingers.

Lochness Monster - Big reptile of some lake

Boogy Man - Dude who creeps around in the night scaring children


What to believe?

Jam wins the forum. That's right. The ENTIRE forum.