Is Science our New God?

[perfect_fat]

There was a time when the universe revolved around the Earth, and nobody questioned it. Today, the Earth revolves around the sun, and nobody questions it.

Instead of believing superior beings created our world, we have turned to science as the great faith. The scientists are our clergy, and their discoveries our daily teachings. Once an open venue for the propaganda of racists and bigots (Negro-Mania for example), science is now seen as the unbiased, undeniable Truth to the mysteries of our universe. Some don't understand the scripture, but they don't dare question their clergy for fear of being scorned. Instead of Sunday school, children learn about it every day at secular institutions. Instead of turning to a priest, we turn to a person in a labcoat.

If we step back and examine the new world religion, we can see leaps of faith, and the unshakable devotion that some have towards those beliefs. The Big Bang, now commonly accepted as the true Genesis of our universe, can not be empirically proven, it cannot be witnessed. Through physics however, we have created formulae that prove it happenned. Instead of embracing this world as a proving ground for our essence, we grasp on to the belief that our corporeal existence is devoid of significance. We aren't divine creations, simply meat bags that exist to pass on our DNA.

As we contribute, in apparent perpetuity, to this revoluion in thought, our place in the universe becomes more and more meaningless and hence, our lives become worthless. One could contend that this is the ultimate method of mind control, the deadening of the soul. Why create when both the process and the end result are worthless? Why exist when our lives are no more important than that of a cockroach?

In British Columbia, they are in the process of exterminating 19 million fowl to control the spread of the Avian Flu. One could argue, scientifcally, that the extermination of all people with AIDS, Hepatitis, and other communicable diseases, is justifiable to ensure a safe breeding ground for untainted human beings.

The violence in our world has created a conniption among the relgious. They believe their faith must have a monopoly for our species to continue.

Is it imperceivable that this could happen among the Science-Faithful in the future?

A Brave New World where life has been proven meaningless and the furthering of our species our ultimate, and only, goal? The elimination of passion, emotion and creativity in favour of productivity and cleanliness? A whitewashed world, packed with tens of billions of automatons whose mantra is "Life is Meaningless."? Daily services held to push this ideal? Curious children told not to think because thought is meaningless? Emotion driven out of us slowly, generation by generation, until finally we feel nothing at all?

The essence of our humanity exists in philosophy, spirituality, emotion and thought. Without that, our lives truly do not have meaning.

(I just want to add that I am preaching NOTHING with this essay, so pls don't flame me, or call me a bible thumper or anything. Thank you and good nite.)

[Jam930]

science will never be like religion. religion is faith, science is science.
=/

[JustJono]

Neither science or religion can function without each other.

[jewpinthethird]

There is a difference between theory and fact. Evolution is a theory, the Big-Bang is a theory. Neither have been "proven" as fact.

The thing about science versus religion is that with science, when one thing is proven, it is proven and universal. If someone disagrees, they create an hypothesis and preform an expiriment. Unlike with religion, in which they mindlessly kill each other over who's imaginary friend is better.

Scientists do not demand that people worship them. They do not use scare tactics to get people to believe.

[Omeganitros]

Scientists do not demand that people worship them. They do not use scare tactics to get people to believe.

What about things like...like...Snakes? They tell you how poisonous they all are and how quickly you can die and where you should look out for them, and what to do if youre bit...What they dont tell you as often is that the feeling of holding a snake in your hands is really cool and fun and they can get rid of your rodent problem...

[alainbryden]

well said jewpin

[Anonymous]

The thing about science versus religion is that with science, when one thing is proven, it is proven and universal. If someone disagrees, they create an hypothesis and preform an expiriment. Unlike with religion, in which they mindlessly kill each other over who's imaginary friend is better.



ditto

Plus, science has its laws. Laws are pretty much as close to fact as you could possibly be. A law has never been broken. And theorys are based off them, as they're the foundation for most scientific findings and whatnot. And atleast a theory is based on CURRENT EVIDENCE. It hasn't been proven totally, but atleast it has something to back it up.

And our place in the universe doesn't necessarily become meaningless. As we discover how rare our planet really is, and how lucky we really are to be here...i see life as more of a gift than an actual 'meaning'. That is why I enjoy life.

[alainbryden]

Everyone join FAGS - FFRers Agains Guest Speach

jk - login

[Anonymous]

Neither science or religion can function without each other.

You're going to have to elaborate on that. That just sounds like empty rhetoric to me.

[alainbryden]

FAGS unite

[perfect_fat]

^ME

Anyways, I think you're looking at my comparison from a very literal level. Most of you nay-sayers have gone on that religion isn't fact and science is. Ask a devout Christian if it is a fact that God created the universe. You subscribe to theories that may or may not be proven false in the future. Remember when the missing link was "found"? A scientist combined the jaw of an ape with the skull of a man (I believe that was the combination). He was revered until it was discovered he was a fraud shortly after.

How do we know that some of these frauds aren't fact today?

There is a leap of faith involved in science. A trust of those that may only be seeking admiration and immortality.

Scientists do not demand that people worship them. They do not use scare tactics to get people to believe.

I disagree with that statement. Some of them want people to worship them, my previous statement gives my thoughts on that. Some people are afraid to question those that they believe are smarter than them. That is intellectual bullying, and could be considered a scare tactic.

[JustJono]

It was originally a quote from einstein, that I don't know word for word but it goes along those lines. Basically.. fuck, forget it. I'm done.

[DracIV]

The big difference between religion and science is this: in religion, you cannot question your greaters or the basic truths given to you; in science, you SHOULD question your greaters and the basic truths to prove their truth, for that is what the entirety of science is (questioning the world around your to find out the truth).

If some martyr had 12 followers make up a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and stick it on the end of a previous religious book, few if any of the people who believed it would examine it closely and look for falseness, but would instead follow it blindly.

If someone came up with a new theory for the universe, everyone (even those who believed it) would examine it closely and look for falseness, and until everyone had proven (as far as any are able to tell) that it is true, then it is still considered an educated guess.

[Jam930]

good point DracIV

[C104K3D]

Evolution is a theory, Big Bang is a theory, yet if you think about it, God, Jesus Christ and the whole bible itself is a theory. No one can be 100% sure that the bible is true, because it may have been written thousands of years ago by someone who just got people believing. Please don't flame me, as this is only a possibility.

[perfect_fat]

The big difference between religion and science is this: in religion, you cannot question your greaters or the basic truths given to you; in science, you SHOULD question your greaters and the basic truths to prove their truth, for that is what the entirety of science is (questioning the world around your to find out the truth).

Most of us don't have the capacity to question the relevancy and accuracy of the human genome for example. They have knowledge that the common man doesn't and therefore, they could hold it over the majority.

[SohCahToa]

I would have to agree with fat on this one.... he is making alot of since.

I think one difference between the 2 is this:
1) Religion has a book that was written by many people over a long period of time and a long time ago. So therefore, we "modern humans" think that just because its old it has no basis on the here and now. And also the bible says that we should be kind to each other and share our money, and give any our things; this is just NOT what people want to hear nowa days because they are greedy SOBs.
2) Science tells us that there is no life after death, so its ok to be greedy, be nasty, screw who ever you want, and basicly do whatever the freak u want because hey.... theres really no consequenses to our actions. And good lord... people want to hear that.... because we are greedy and evil by nature.

Poeple seriously think that just because science has a bunch of computers, numbers, and formulea to make everything sound fancy; that its right.

Welll my friends.... we know about 0.0000000000000000000001% of this world... and if you are stupid... thats not alot.

For god's sake... we don't even know why we age.....and noone really wants to find out!

Let me ask you a question guys... do u believe in gravity.... the ozone layer....time itself?

No need to answer... because they are all fake. You can't explain gravity... you just freaking can't. The ozone is a theory, and alot of people expect this fundimental fact, well its not... because it has yet to be proven.

Time....omg time gets its OWN paragraph.... nobody questions whiether time is real or not....why u ask... because theres a computerized clock right in front of you tell you what time it is. Well my friends...time is a measurement.... like inches, centimeters, and the lot... and being a measurement it has to be comepaired to something. Scienists chose a full revolution around our sun to be our day. Why? Because of day and night being so different. well... time just doesn't stop and restart after every single night, nor is it different anywhere else in the universe.

Also... adding on to this, time doesn't exist because it is errational. The past has all ready happened and the future has yet to happen. Also the present can be broken down to as many places after the decmal point as you want.... it will never stop, therefor it does not exist.

Wow....getting off subject alittle......back on track now....

to the person that said if some comes up with a theory and people examine it carefully and see if anythings wrong, what about our freaking number system. Not to pick on you... but.... :twisted:

have u ever asked your self: why are there errational number, why can't Pi be found (thats 3.14...... number), why are there repeating decimals?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe our number system is totally wrong? Theres no examination of our number system because our scienctist think that they are 100% right, when they could be 100% wrong all the time. Nobdy really wants to think that anyways, because all science did for us was they made apps to an already existing numberical system. Can any of us even THINK of a way to have math different. the answer is no.... because we have been tought this since we have been able to remember... and we have been tought this to be a fact...when in fact if it was the perfect number system it would have so many errors in as ours does. People blame the bible for contradicting itself alot.... when our own science does it 4 million times more, and yet we have never questioned numbers... thats really wierd to me.

lol... wow.... welll thats my rant... sorry for the lack of spelling/grammer... i was typing this in a hurry to get back to ffr 8D

oh by the way


What about things like...like...Snakes? They tell you how poisonous they all are and how quickly you can die and where you should look out for them, and what to do if youre bit...What they dont tell you as often is that the feeling of holding a snake in your hands is really cool and fun and they can get rid of your rodent problem...

thats the lawyers job to tell u that u can't do things... not science... :wink:

[jewpinthethird]

1) Religion has a book that was written by many people over a long period of time and a long time ago. So therefore, we "modern humans" think that just because its old it has no basis on the here and now. And also the bible says that we should be kind to each other and share our money, and give any our things; this is just NOT what people want to hear nowa days because they are greedy SOBs

2) Science tells us that there is no life after death, so its ok to be greedy, be nasty, screw who ever you want, and basicly do whatever the freak u want because hey.... theres really no consequenses to our actions. And good lord... people want to hear that.... because we are greedy and evil by nature.


That is why the world is 89% religious freaks. And I have never heard a scientist say anything of that sort. And who said scientists cant be religious? Look at Darwin (known for his studies on evolution or the "founder" of the theory), he was studying to become a reverend.

Scienists chose a full revolution around our sun to be our day

Mayans came up with an accurate calander years before anyone else. Also, "time" existed way before "science". Back when people thought the FLAT Earth was the center of the Universe, and everything revolved around it because the church says so. It was scientists who decived that the world was round and that it revolved around the sun. Also, time is intangible, it does not truly exist, but people rely on it to keep track of events.

"Scienists chose a full revolution around our sun to be our day"

That would be a year. The time it takes the earth to spin a full rotation around its axis is a "day" which happens to be 24 hours.

"For god's sake... we don't even know why we age.....and noone really wants to find out"
At a certian point, the body, due to a lack of metabolism and whatnot, begins to stop producing cells as fast as before. The body deteriates. The immune system becomes weak. Bones become britle due to the lack of minerals the body is about to produce (interesting fact: the bones in your body will never be much more than 12 years old. They are constently being broken down and reinforced, when one gets old, they arent reinforced -> Osteoporosis).

Gravity? It is the force that keeps us on this Earth. The rotation of the Earth (aprox. 1000mph) forces us to stay put on the surface. Ever riden a rollercoaster? You know that feeling when you are pushed down into your seat (aka G-force) That is gravity.

Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle. It never ends because a circle never ends.

nobody questions whiether time is real or not
http://flashflashrevolution.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8970&sid=60722b2917c505fd48eb3ee32e8251f9

Wow.

when our own science does it 4 million times more, and yet we have never questioned numbers... thats really wierd to me.


Name a contridiction one. If there are so many, it shouldnt be hard.

http://flashflashrevolution.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9273&sid=6d9eda3de87a06bcaedfdbd7c562932a
Never questioned numbers, hell, we've questioned our entire math system.

Oh, and scientists didnt create numbers. They were "discovered" before recorded history.

[chardish]

As I've found, being a devout Christian, many atheists use the fact that religion can't be scientifically proven to discredit it entirely. They then use terms like "freaks", "brainwashing", or as Jewpin said "imaginary friend" to make the religious seem somehow idiotic or blind to the realities of the world.

I believe that religion and science are not enemies, because obviously God would have had to create science - God would have had to determine how things were going to work and why. Science has created an obsession with "proof" though - secular people think that just because they can't get scientific proof of God that he doesn't exist.

Note to the secularists: Faith is a very deep and powerful thing that defies normal explanation. You should attempt to understand why people are faithful before riding it off as a silly fantasy. And don't just use excuses like "they're trying to get over their insecurities" or "they're trying to keep from despairing" or something like that. Accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, there might be something greater in the universe that wants to talk to us, even though so often we refuse to listen, hopelessly enamored with the tangible world around us. Understand the gifts that faith gives to the faithful.

[Jam930]

just some thoughts...

hundreds of thousands of religions on this planet. each religion claiming every single other religion is the world is false...well...that rules out EVERY religion in the world as bs except for one, which might also be bs, but we're not sure. therefore more than 99% of religion consists of falsity and deception. the chances that one single religion we're not totally sure about is a true religion, even though it's much like all the others, is like 0.000001%. no offense chardish, this is just logic

i need water.

[deposition]

Science has created an obsession with "proof" though - secular people think that just because they can't get scientific proof of God that he doesn't exist.


people have always been obsessed with proof, but they have never had the technology to proove certain things. now that we do, we have found out many things that we have prooven that contrast the bible, and more and more people are rejecting it.

[fusi0n]

Science has created an obsession with "proof" though - secular people think that just because they can't get scientific proof of God that he doesn't exist.

people have always been obsessed with proof, but they have never had the technology to proove certain things. now that we do, we have found out many things that we have prooven that contrast the bible, and more and more people are rejecting it.

[Anonymous]

hmmm.... in all my life i have never heard a christian say that another religion is"wrong".... welll MAYBE satanism... but thats a strech :wink: .

chardish..... most of the athists really don't know what the hell they are talking about. Most of them chose the title because thier friends do, and that it sounds cool.
They live to much in the physical world, and don't really realise that "god" is a abstract being. Its like your mind...or your brain... your mind. You can't explain your mind, because it is also abstract. You can't explain the little voice in your head that is you.

also... name one thing that science contadictes itself.... hmmm... off the top of my head...

Can Science explain the modius strip? Its is a 3-d object with 2 perfectly different sides, and yet it has only one plain. Meaning... i place my pen down on it... i can write on both sides of the paper without lifting my pen once. the contridiction is that if there are 2 surfaces then my pen should not be able to do that.

also... you said that inaging, the cells stop producing as fast as before.... but why? It couldn't be the lack of mineral... because you could pump all the nessisary minerals u need into your body and still age.

Also gravity isn't as simple as that. If what you say is true.... then in space i could take a bowling ball and a grain of sand and the grian of sand would then the sand revolve around the bowling ball, and yet it does not. odd that its selective don't u think?

wierd that 2 posts are alike to...madness i say madness!

[Jam930]

hmmm.... in all my life i have never heard a christian say that another religion is"wrong".... welll MAYBE satanism... but thats a strech :wink: .

...have you ever left your computer? pretty much every branch of christianity claims other branches to be false.


chardish..... most of the athists really don't know what the hell they are talking about. Most of them chose the title because thier friends do, and that it sounds cool.
They live to much in the physical world, and don't really realise that "god" is a abstract being. Its like your mind...or your brain... your mind. You can't explain your mind, because it is also abstract. You can't explain the little voice in your head that is you.

what the hell are you talking about? sounds cool? when u dont believe something, it just means you dont believe it. it doesnt mean you're trying to be cool.


also... name one thing that science contadictes itself.... hmmm... off the top of my head...

Can Science explain the modius strip? Its is a 3-d object with 2 perfectly different sides, and yet it has only one plain. Meaning... i place my pen down on it... i can write on both sides of the paper without lifting my pen once. the contridiction is that if there are 2 surfaces then my pen should not be able to do that.

the thing is...there isn't 2 sides. there is only one and it goes around on itself, and you just explained that.


also... you said that inaging, the cells stop producing as fast as before.... but why? It couldn't be the lack of mineral... because you could pump all the nessisary minerals u need into your body and still age.

age = b/c of time. screw minerals. things wear down through exposure.


Also gravity isn't as simple as that. If what you say is true.... then in space i could take a bowling ball and a grain of sand and the grian of sand would then the sand revolve around the bowling ball, and yet it does not. odd that its selective don't u think?

neither has enough mass. and things dont just revolve, genius. when u jump, do u start revolving around the earth until u come back down? no u go directly right back to it. shortest distance between 2 points is a striaght line. the reasons things orbit eachother in space is because they have enough velocity to not be simply sucked in. plus the mass of a star a light-year away would have more of an effect.


wierd that 2 posts are alike to...madness i say madness!
...i rest my case.
=P

[Anonymous]

hjmmm.... for some reason my post wasn't logged in... wierd.... anyway...

thanks all the rude comments... that was really needed. i am posting to help explain my ideas....and you have no right to be rude to something that wasn't derected to u.

ok... now that u have my full attecation i shall explain to the flaws in what u say.

Where to start... hmmm lets start with the mobius strip. There are to completely different sides smart guy. Do u even know what a mobius strip is? If u did u wouldknow what i am talking about.... but sences its become clear to me that you don't know what it is... i shall explain.

A mobius strip is a piece of paper... a "strip" if u will...with one twist in it. You tape the 2 oppiset sides together an you have your mobius strip.

There are two sperate sides, the inner side and the outerside; and yet there is only 1 plane for the 2 sides, where there should be 2 planes to the 2 sides.

Your age answer was that of a 5 year olds answer. "Well um.... just cause....er...EXPOSURE...um...yeah...thats it....". That is basicly what u convaded to me. Your lack of explaination shows your lack of knowledge of the subject at hand. Exposure means absolutly nothing to me.... exposure to what.... air? elements? people? You basicly felt that i was wrong and you came up with a general answer to make yourself feel smart. It was so gerenal that you couldn't possibly be wrong, cause exposure means everything.

Next time i would like a more educated answers, for you just displayed an 9th level of intelligence and masked it with big words to sound convincing..wait there were no big words, your making statements without facts.

Let me ask you this....Why don't things just revolve? The reason WE don't move is because are already effected by the pressure of our atmosphere bearing down on us. But that is NOT true for a "0 gravity" enviroment, because they is no gravity to influence the out come.

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line...... wtf... why on EARTH did u put that in there? i would like to know what purpose that had in that paragraph. That was just an ignorent statement, and furthers your loss of credibility with that idioticly placed statement. Though it is true... it has no place in your post what so ever. Learn to use theroms in the correct places.

Also, i would like to ask where the planets got that velocity, and how the planets come to reolve around it?

What do u mean sucked in... sucked into what? orbit? the other planet?

And how would a star a light year away have any sort of effect?

Do u have any idea how fast light travels.... it takes 8 minutes for light to hit us from the sun. A light year away sun would have no effect... even pluto is not a light year away.

the only thing u rest your case on is that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

hjmmm.... for some reason my post wasn't logged in... wierd.... anyway...

thanks all the rude comments... that was really needed. i am posting to help explain my ideas....and you have no right to be rude to something that wasn't derected to u.

ok... now that u have my full attecation i shall explain to the flaws in what u say.

Where to start... hmmm lets start with the mobius strip. There are to completely different sides smart guy. Do u even know what a mobius strip is? If u did u wouldknow what i am talking about.... but sences its become clear to me that you don't know what it is... i shall explain.

A mobius strip is a piece of paper... a "strip" if u will...with one twist in it. You tape the 2 oppiset sides together an you have your mobius strip.

There are two sperate sides, the inner side and the outerside; and yet there is only 1 plane for the 2 sides, where there should be 2 planes to the 2 sides.

Your age answer was that of a 5 year olds answer. "Well um.... just cause....er...EXPOSURE...um...yeah...thats it....". That is basicly what u convaded to me. Your lack of explaination shows your lack of knowledge of the subject at hand. Exposure means absolutly nothing to me.... exposure to what.... air? elements? people? You basicly felt that i was wrong and you came up with a general answer to make yourself feel smart. It was so gerenal that you couldn't possibly be wrong, cause exposure means everything.

Next time i would like a more educated answers, for you just displayed an 9th level of intelligence and masked it with big words to sound convincing..wait there were no big words, your making statements without facts.

Let me ask you this....Why don't things just revolve? The reason WE don't move is because are already effected by the pressure of our atmosphere bearing down on us. But that is NOT true for a "0 gravity" enviroment, because they is no gravity to influence the out come.

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line...... wtf... why on EARTH did u put that in there? i would like to know what purpose that had in that paragraph. That was just an ignorent statement, and furthers your loss of credibility with that idioticly placed statement. Though it is true... it has no place in your post what so ever. Learn to use theroms in the correct places.

Also, i would like to ask where the planets got that velocity, and how the planets come to reolve around it?

What do u mean sucked in... sucked into what? orbit? the other planet?

And how would a star a light year away have any sort of effect?

Do u have any idea how fast light travels.... it takes 8 minutes for light to hit us from the sun. A light year away sun would have no effect... even pluto is not a light year away.

the only thing u rest your case on is that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[VxDx]

chardish..... most of the athists really don't know what the hell they are talking about. Most of them chose the title because thier friends do, and that it sounds cool.
They live to much in the physical world, and don't really realise that "god" is a abstract being.

first off, that is an ignorant generalization, and secondly do you realize that you say that atheists are wrong because they "live too much in the real world", when the real world is the only world that anyone has experience with? You say that the atheists are the ones who do not understand and yet you are the one who makes gross assumptions in regards to god and how he exists. I'd challenge you to find me one piece of concrete evidence regarding the existance of god. granted, that is not a disproof of god, which is why I am not atheist, but it sure is interesting that you claim that atheists don't know " what the hell they are talking about" and yet you are the one who believes in something that cannot be proven true, and defend your beliefs on the basis that you believe it.


also... name one thing that science contadictes itself.... hmmm... off the top of my head...

Can Science explain the modius strip? Its is a 3-d object with 2 perfectly different sides, and yet it has only one plain. Meaning... i place my pen down on it... i can write on both sides of the paper without lifting my pen once. the contridiction is that if there are 2 surfaces then my pen should not be able to do that.

it's a möbius strip. just becuase you dont understand it doesn't mean that it proves that science contradicts itself. in order to turn a two sided piece of paper into a möbius strip you have to give it a half twist and connect it. it's at that junction that you mistake ignorance with contradiction. when your pen leaves one end and touches the other, it switches which side it is writing on. you're trying to apply euclidean geometry to a situation where it doesn't exist.

[VxDx]

That is basicly what u convaded to me.

...masked it with big words to sound convincing
maybe you should learn to properly use those "big words" before you make some crazy accusations.


Let me ask you this....Why don't things just revolve? The reason WE don't move is because are already effected by the pressure of our atmosphere bearing down on us. But that is NOT true for a "0 gravity" enviroment, because they is no gravity to influence the out come.

pressure has nothing to do with not moving (with respect to where you jumped from) when you jump. nothing at all.


Learn to use theroms in the correct places.
yeah, theorums, like the ones you use to support all your claims...


And how would a star a light year away have any sort of effect?

the only thing u rest your case on is that you have no clue what you are talking about.
her point was that is doesn't have an effect ace. learn to read.

also, to quote you...thanks all the rude comments... that was really needed
hypocrisy at it's finest.

[SohCahToa]

ok ok... let us be mature about this. There is no need to flame each other, because this will go on forever. I did not mean to start a fight, and i was wrong for faning the flames with my unprofessional comments. I would like to apologise to jam, it was not place right to mock your opinions on my postes.

I would like to move on from that and dicuss this without name calling and anger, and talk about theorys like adults.

I will admit that i am wrong about the athist thing.... man... wtf was i thinking when i put that there. My statement was based upon the people, that are like that, that are around me. Most of them don't really know why they are, they just say "because he don't". Realise that statement is on a personal basis, and therefore will be wrong for the general crowd.

"pressure of our atmosphere bearing down on us" was another word for gravity. And that statement was for the question "do u start revolving around the earth until u come back down?" and i was giving the reason why we don't move when we jump.

[VxDx]

it's not gravity either, it's angular momentum.

[aleco]

people have always been obsessed with proof, but they have never had the technology to proove certain things. now that we do, we have found out many things that we have prooven that contrast the bible, and more and more people are rejecting it.

The big difference between religion and science is this: in religion, you cannot question your greaters or the basic truths given to you; in science, you SHOULD question your greaters and the basic truths to prove their truth, for that is what the entirety of science is (questioning the world around your to find out the truth).

If some martyr had 12 followers make up a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and stick it on the end of a previous religious book, few if any of the people who believed it would examine it closely and look for falseness, but would instead follow it blindly.

If someone came up with a new theory for the universe, everyone (even those who believed it) would examine it closely and look for falseness, and until everyone had proven (as far as any are able to tell) that it is true, then it is still considered an educated guess.

What things have disproved the Bible? What things have been false?
I am one who doesn't take things like that lightly. I have never found anything wrong.

Guess what? NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN! We can't be sure of anything. Anything at all.

Chardish, congrats on being one of the few people who is right.

[chardish]

The big mistake that most of the atheists here are making is claiming that every single belief system is to be equally trusted. They think that some "martyr with 12 followers" constitutes a religion that is on equal ground with religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam.

A mistake made by Jamie is the point that all of the different branches of Christianity claim the others are wrong. This is simple ignorance. If 2 branches of Christianity agree on 95% and disagree on the 5%, that doesn't mean they both think the other is "wrong." The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, for example, have only a grocery list of disagreements - most of their differences have to do with church hierarchy.

Third, you'll notice that every religion does not say every other religion is "wrong." Christians and Jews, for example, share most of their beliefs in common!

Don't make it out that there's this massive war of belief among the faithful.

[chardish]

Edit: Triple-post, ouch, sorry.

[DracIV]

Okay, it's painful to read some of this, people. Much of it is wrong.

First of all, SohCahToa (name based off math; odd that you question math), science does not say there are no consequences. If you are greedy or steal or murder, you will suffer consequences in this life. You will go to jail, you will be hated, etc. We have morals and ethics that keep people honorable in this life. Few if any people don't commit crimes because they are religious, they do it because we as a race feel it is wrong.

Second topic, most of the science mentioned is flawed or incomplete.
The body dies because, over time, the caps on the end of our DNA wear away after millions of replications, our bodies suffer wear and tear (arthritis, etc.), certain functions run out of non-renewable supplies (ovaries), our hormones are no longer told to do their jobs (important), and the efficiency of our bodies begins to decrease.
The next error is gravity; gravity is caused by mass, not speed. Without gravity, the spinning of the Earth would throw us off, not keep us on. Gravity has been explained and is moderately well understood. We even have the math to explain and predict it perfectly!
Next, the ozone layer exists. We know it exists because it is right there. We can touch it, we can see it, we even know exactly what it consists of. You can't say it doesn't exist.
Next on the list, the number system itself cannot be wrong. Specific things might be, but irrational numbers aren't. In certain cases, you just flat out cannot split up a number like 7 into 9 equal portions. It just doesn't fit. Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle. It isn't that hard to understand. It may not fit nicely, but you can't refute it. If the higher stuff confuses you, look at our number system on the simple level. We use base 10 counting. That has absolutely no effect on how many apples are there. The number system can only refer to our way of counting. No matter what, counting is still counting and it can't be wrong. Just count your toes. Are you sure you don't have 72?
Guest, you haven't been to Church recently have you? According to the Bible, there is only one God and everyone else is an idiot for believing in junk. Isn't the equivalent in the 10 Commandments? Also, the stuff about science being unable to explain our minds or the mobius strip is wrong. Math (which you have classified under science) explains very nicely what the mobius strip is. Science can explain why our minds exist and mostly how they work, even though we are still exploring why our minds work how they do and how they exist.
Again Guest, sorry for this rude comment, but you sound like an absolute moron. EVERYTHING has gravity. "0 Gravity Environment" refers to only microgravity. Also, the atmosphere does the equivalent of nothing to us. The only effect it has is friction, which isn't related to gravity. The reason things revolve is that they have enough speed to literally constantly fall past the edge the thing that is holding them in, but not enough speed to escape from their orbit. Also, gravity is either instantaneous or constant, we don't know which because of the conservation of mass. Gravity from stars 50,000,000 lightyears away affect us, just in a very miniscule amount. The point was that the star, even when that far away, would have more of an effect (due to mass) on the two objects than either would have on each other. I don't think you understood anything Jam said. When she said sucked in, she meant into the gravity well of the other object. When she mentioned exposure wearing down your body, it isn't a "cover all answer." She meant that the wear and tear of living, from running to fighting to blood pumping wears down your body slowly. Or in other words, exposure to everything (simplified as just exposure). Oh yeah, and you spelled theorem, basically, conveyed, explanation, general, because, environment, outcome, ignorant, idiotically, athiests, contradicts and revolve wrong. And a little tiny comment: You are so hypocritical that it is painful. We have no right to be rude you say? Then why is every post you make aimed at repeatedly saying the other person is an idiot, a moron, a fool, a liar, and a dimwit? Cease your nonsense! (I hope this doesn't double post)

[DracIV]

Aleco, a quick reply: things in the bible can be proven. We now know as a near-fact that most stories in the Bible are not literal. They are moral stories that were often older myths that were written down by the priests. Example: Noah's Ark.

Chardish: Chistianity, Judaeism, and the (?)Islamic religion all believe in the same god, but they branch off later in history. I'm not sure if it is the Islamic religion that shares the same god, but I know that one major religion from that region of the world does. Anyway, those grouped religions are somewhat exempt because they believe in the seed and disagree on the later outcomes or worship methods. To be more accurate, all monotheistic religions say that those who believe in other gods are wrong and all polytheistic religions believe that the monotheistic ones are wrong. And besides, everyone knows Knishkuggle is the One True God! (j/k) :)

[VxDx]

It comes down to this. religious folk believe based on ideas that can be neither proven or disproven. the very nature of religion makes it impossible to disprove (a survival tactic that supporters have come up with IMO) and to this date has not been proven nor has any evidence been shown that would even suggest a large probability of truth. people who do not believe are of the opinion that there should be some reason to believe in something, something concrete.

there is absolutely no point in debating whether god exists or not. neither side will win, neither side will convert anybody (plus, what would be the point?) the only time I'll interject anything religious into the discussion is when someone tries to prove religion or attack non-believers (a disclaimer before anyone calls me a hypocrite.

re: math and time's essential non-existance.
math is a system. that is all. irrational numbers exist because our system does not take into account every special case. our system is base 10 because our bodies have 10 digits.
time exists insofar as there is a physical effect that it is defined by. if time didn't exist, then what prompted those who first realized time to make a specific idea to define what "time" is. that time is continuous and not discrete says nothing of it's existance or non-existance.

[fusi0n]

Chardish, congrats on being one of the few people who is right.

thanks for the useless opinion, ass.

[aleco]

Aleco, a quick reply: things in the bible can be proven. We now know as a near-fact that most stories in the Bible are not literal. They are moral stories that were often older myths that were written down by the priests. Example: Noah's Ark.

Whoa, that's a new one.
Tell me how we know this as a near-fact?

Chardish, congrats on being one of the few people who is right.

thanks for the useless opinion, ass.

You are quite welcome.

[Thingy]

Does anyone see the irony that Chardish compared Christianity to "a martyr with 12 followers?"

Many people believe BECAUSE of logic.
If all religion is wrong, and you believe, then you die and thats it.
If your religion is right, and you believe, you get to go to heaven.
If your religion is wrong, and you dont believe, you still die.
If your religion is right, and you dont believe, you are in serious trouble.

So: If you believe, one of two things will happen, dead or heaven.
If you dont, one of two things will happen, dead or hell.

What do you think most people will choose?

I really dont know what my point is, I just disagreed with both sides. lol

[DracIV]

To follow my example of Noah's Arc: we know there was no worldwide flood. There would have been evidence worldwide (duh) in the dirt layers. There is not. There isn't even enough water on our entire planet to even get close to a worldwide flood. You'd need literally solid water pouring in from every single direction at a huge speed to flood the Earth like that. No one could survive it, even if it was possible. We also know that nearly every society has a flood story of some sort that follows that same path. Archaeologists have been able to trace it back to a Sumerian flood story that was totally possible. It involved a mayor of a city who built a large raft boat to clear up his debts by making a major goods transportation, but before it launched a freak storm occured in the dry season that caused a major flood and washed his whole family on the raft down into the Red Sea. They later arrived at an island where they headed back on a major journey of hundreds of miles to home. However, the debtors all needed money after the flood because of damages and he had lost all he had, so he was forced to leave or face death. They went back to the island (we can know which one it is, but I forgot) and set up a kingdom that became a major trading port and was immensely rich. They lived in a tropical paradise trading haven for the last of their years. Since the freak storm was a once in 800 years kind of thing, it was most definately noteworthy and since he was a king of a very rich kingdom his tale in particular was recorded. The story was passed on through the different societies through communication and later recorded by the Jewish priests they *think* as a moral story about what happens when you piss off God. The physical evidence and written story has been found for all this, and later stories even referenced it by name for many centuries before the original was forgotten. Beat that.

[aleco]

All right. You obviously don't know the story of Noah and the ark. If you did, then maybe you could come with a better reply.

[fusi0n]

Does anyone see the irony that Chardish compared Christianity to "a martyr with 12 followers?"

Many people believe BECAUSE of logic.
If all religion is wrong, and you believe, then you die and thats it.
If your religion is right, and you believe, you get to go to heaven.
If your religion is wrong, and you dont believe, you still die.
If your religion is right, and you dont believe, you are in serious trouble.

So: If you believe, one of two things will happen, dead or heaven.
If you dont, one of two things will happen, dead or hell.

What do you think most people will choose?

I really dont know what my point is, I just disagreed with both sides. lol

"lets be a christian so we might be able to go to heaven!"

i'm not christian or anything, but i will have to disagree on your logic.
that's like believing because you are afraid of what might happen to you if you don't believe, which is stupid.

[Privateer]

Doesn't God forgive everyone, anyway? :P Plus, even if you don't believe, if you don't do the things that send you to Hell, there would be no reason for you to still go to Hell, if you don't believe.

[fusi0n]

yes i've also thought about that too. also, i never understood why god would create gay people if it's a sin. gay people don't just choose to be gay, because i'm sure if they could they would be straight since it's easier that way, and accepted by society.

speaking of multiple religions, there was a south park episode i vaguely remember where everyone was in hell, and jesus or someone was like,
"i'm sorry, the answer we were looking for was Hindu."

[DracIV]

Aleco, they have also proved that the ark dimensions are impossible, the number of animals usually accepted is impossible, the number of animals he would have taken wouldn't have fit (according to exactly what he was supposed to bring from the area), the arrival location is impossible, the worldwide flood is impossible, and the length of time was impossible. I'd go with the Sumerian story rather than the Jewish story.

Fusi0n, odd fact: most gay people are gay by genetics, not by choice most of the time, so God [assume he exists] made all the gay people on purpose even though he specifically said that being gay is a sin . . . or did he? Was he the one who said it or did someone else say it in his name? Also, the Church actually used that tactic to get a huge amount of power during the Black Plague and later.

[aleco]

Privateer: Just because he forgives doesn't mean you can just go do things anyway. You don't go to hell because you do bad things, anyway, but if you did, everyone would be goin there, because you can't be saved by works. It's impossible.

G ayness came about with sin, not before, when all was perfect.

DracIV: Impossible by human standards, but not impossible to God. Nothing is impossible to God.

[DracIV]

Don't give me that BS. It is impossible as in it wouldn't work without non-stop-not-gonna-ever-happen intervention and massive reconstruction of the whole world after it got screwed over by these impossibilities. Impossible as in only an idiotic god would ever do something so pointless when he could kill everyone with the snap of his fingers. Or can he? Is it possible that your god may not have unlimited powers, or any at all, but that he is just a figure and/or caretaker of the afterlife? Why would he focus so much on this single planet? Why stick us in a crappy start instead of starting us with a perfect civilization that spanned galaxies? Why be an idiot and make all this stuff he wasn't planning to use if Eden did/didn't exist? Why assume we are even more than play toys to him and some other race on another planet(s) are the ones he truly loves? Why are humans so selfish in assuming they are the only ones a god would favor? Why was the world made in such an ungodlike manner? Why? I say it is because no one is here, what do you say?

[DracIV]

Oops. I accidentally forgot to make my comment relating to the original thread. Here goes:

The reason Science cannot be used as a way to lord over others is because the whole point is the gaining and spreading of knowledge. If you wanted to learn just about anything we have discovered with science, you can find it publicly. Religion on the other hand is not so nice. Being "in the favor of God" is something that the Church leaders can claim so that they are able to lord over the peasants. They can use their power to control people. Scientists cannot. Scientists learn things and spread them to the world. Heck, if you wanted to know how to make an atomic bomb you could look it up easily and find it. Science spreads knowledge to the masses, religion works better when knowledge is barred from reaching the masses. Educated masses seek answer and further science in the search for knowledge. Uneducated masses must resort to religion to find a reason for life. Educated masses can choose their future, whether they believe or not, whether they will search for answers or not. Uneducated masses are not allowed to choose. It is chosen for them; example: years after Black Plague in which following the Church was literally forced.

[fusi0n]

Fusi0n, odd fact: most #$* people are #$* by genetics, not by choice most of the time, so God [assume he exists] made all the #$* people on purpose even though he specifically said that being #$* is a sin . . . or did he? Was he the one who said it or did someone else say it in his name? Also, the Church actually used that tactic to get a huge amount of power during the Black Plague and later.

i knew that most gay people are gay by genetics, which is why i said they don't have a choice whether they are gay or not. a lot of christians (not all) think that homosexuals are gay by choice.

[deposition]

god would create gay people

there is no 'gay' gene
people arnt born gay.. no animals are gay.. its not natural.ts up in their head. mabye a little subconsously.. a lot fo the time gay guys dont have dads.. so uhhh mabye is their enviroment


or

(most likely)
mabye just because their really gay

and their gay
so
their gay
:p


btw why the hell does the formus filter stupid crap like the work gay??

[fusi0n]

it's genetic brian, you n00b.

and yeah there are mental aspects too, but just because a person doesn't have a dad doesn't mean they are gay. you can't turn anyone gay.

[chardish]

God creates gay people for the same reason he creates kleptomaniacs, or people with personality disorders, etc. - to challenge them to live faithfully despite their tendency to sin, and to show this example to others. Because we all have tendencies to sin, and could easily go by their example.

[DracIV]

"despite their tendency to sin"

So you personally have declared that gay people are sinners, and those with personality disorders are also sinners? Who do you or your god think you are to declare these people sinners and evil because they have a problem they cannot help? I'd call god an asshole for torturing people in that manner. Neither of you have a right to declare someone wrong for a genetic error. I don't care if he is the "all powerful sumpreme god" and even if I do believe in him, no one has the right to judge that or to force that on people. Not even a god. If god exists, he is the most evil, most cruel, most horrifically unfair being in all existance. No one should ever force things like major personality disorders, retardedness, or other genetic errors onto people. When I look at the list of problems in the world on all levels that are part of nature, I know a god either has to be malicious or nonexistant. Your message really struck a nerve for me. I can't stand anyone who would ever force such things on people to make them "examples" for others. That is no better than chopping the hands of a thief off to make the rest not steal. That is no better than the worst things humans have ever done to each other, and I find it horribly digusting, even if it is meant to "help" us.

God needs some lessons in morals and ethics. When you look at all the things he has done, many of them are unbelievably cruel. Genocide? Yep. Abandoning his followers in a desert? Sure. Murdering hundreds of thousands just to make an interesting event? Definately. Killing his followers by the millions? Every year. And what does he give in return for all these horrible deeds? A promise of life after we die. How exciting. I'm reluctant to believe the word of someone who would kill his own son just to make a point.

[Anonymous]

All religion... is still a theory. None have proof... just like big bang, or evolution. :) Agnosticism is the closest i can get to truth ;)

[SUSUGAM]

^
|
|
me...

buh

[Anonymous]

Viva la agnosticism! Viva la science!

[fusi0n]

i don't see how gay people are sinning by doing what is natural to them...they have the right the happiness as much as anyone else, and to say they don't because god says so to me is wrong...and why is homosexuality wrong to god?

[alextrebek]

Viva la agnosticism! Viva la science!

That was me, and I could have sworn I was logged in...

[fusi0n]

<('.'<) (>'.')>

yay for another religion thread.

[SUSUGAM]

Organized Religion - The downfall of society.

:D

Sins... so much bullsh!t there that i want to vomit... and laugh at how im still not going too hell, even though a book says I will.

[VxDx]

Organized Religion - The downfall of society.

:D

Sins... so much bullsh!t there that i want to vomit... and laugh at how im still not going too hell, even though a book says I will.

stop trying to start fights. you make yourself look like an idiot.

[SUSUGAM]

Not starting anything... Im voicing my opinion.

And i feel what i feel.

[SohCahToa]

hmmmm.... not really liking where this is leading to...but i'll play along.

First of all, mentaly ill people can't sin. If you sin, without ever knowing that it was a sin, then it is not a sin. The seriously mentally ill people can't even tell right from wrong, so how could they ever sin? They can't, even if that person kills 20 people it is still not a sin; because he has no way of knowing that it is wrong. If i was from a different country where the custom was to punch you in the face as a friendly gretting, and i come to the US and the first person i meet i use my countries way of saying hello by punch the guy right in his face. Would that be wrong on my part because i didn't know that this was "wrong" in the US, heck no. that was an example, there is no country with that custom (that i know of) it was used purly as an example.

Also, you are born gay. Simple as that. You don't just wake up one morning and go "hey, i'm gay".

Let me explain that alittle better. Do u (and i am assuming that u are straight, u may not be, i don't know... this is an example and i mean no offence by it) ,as a straight person, deside that you like the oppiset sex? Do u have to wake up each morning and make that choice over and over and over again? Probily not. The same goes for everything in your psyci, what are your likes, your dislikes and everything that makes up your personallity.Granted up bringing DOES have an influence on how you think and act, so it is also possible to not be born gay and still be gay.

The reason why I think that everybody, namely religion, has a problem with being gay is because it is not procreative.I can see where they are coming from, but also the bible tells us not to judge people, but to treat everyone with the same respect as you would like to be treated.Therefore, i really don't have a problem with gays. I wouldn't hate you for being gay, you can't hate a person soly on the fact that they are different and you don't like it.

God is not "cruel" because he makes people with handicaps, he makes them because he has to.Think of it this way, there HAS to be evil in the world to know what good is. How horrible would it be if EVERYONE was perfectly healthy and not a thing wrong with them and nothing ever went wrong, we could never apprecate how truely good we have it because we wouldn't have anything to compair it to because everything was always at its best.

Drac, man, you take bible stories way to literaly. Of course you could never ever ever fit all the animals in thwe world into a boat, hell we couldn't even to that now. Hell the bible said that Noah lived to be 900 years old. It was a story made to make a more abstract point, not be 100% fact. Its like saying the 3 little pigs couldnever happen because a wolfs' lungs could not produce enough force of blowing air to knock down a house. of course it couldn't have happened, its a story that teaches a lession.

Educated masses seek answer and further science in the search for knowledge. Uneducated masses must resort to religion to find a reason for life. Educated masses can choose their future, whether they believe or not, whether they will search for answers or not. Uneducated masses are not allowed to choose

Freaking bullseye dude, that is a very true statement no madder how u cut it. I agree with that statement alot.

[DracIV]

SohCahToa, the 900 years thing didn't refer to our years. It translates to 83 years old. (Don't ask me how, but it is true).

You used the one argument I hate the most. "We need evil to know good." You don't need to appreciate the good things in life to be happy. Happiness doesn't require something to compare it against. If everyone was happy in the world and everything was perfect, life would be perfect. Appreciation of what you have would probably be a nice thing, but we don't necessarily need it. And besides, do we need evil consuming the whole world to appreciate our lives? Couldn't we just have the occasional natural disaster and a few bad things to make us appreciate? When the whole world is fighting evil and barely keeping things at a stalemate, that goes a bit beyond "enough evil to appreciate the good."

[aleco]

Okay, the story of Noah IS MEANT TO BE A REAL STORY, NOT A MORAL LESSON. Whether you think it could happen or not is left to you.
Also every single person sins a lot. Every single person. Not just people who "know something is wrong and do it". You can not know something is wrong and still have it counted as sin.
DracIV- 900 years means 900 years. That was because sin had been in being for not close to as long and hadn't taken effect as much yet. Obviously it won't be compared to modern times.

[DracIV]

Aleco, it wasn't 900 years. If he lived 900 years, he would have crossed into a new era of history and been recorded somewhere. He wasn't. It wasn't 900 years as we think, it was another time unit. And besides, you contributed absolutely nothing except to say "No, that is wrong, you're wrong, end."

Either way, Noah's story is a moral one whether or not it is the original. It teaches that if you piss off god too much, you die and everything your ancestors had ever accomplished is wiped. I don't care for that at all when it relates to our time, but back then it had a useful meaning for inspiring fear and gaining control.

[makaveli121212]

when will people reailze that arguing over religion is stupid and pointless

[DracIV]

When we get to page 38,394,490,004,129,094,025,052,055 or get tired with this thread.

[aleco]

^^How true.^^

DracIV: I have no clue where you got that from.

[makaveli121212]

to argue for or against religion you have to be a very ignorant person because you would be arguing for and against things that cannot by solidly proven true...anyone who argues over it is a moron, and thats not debateable

[aleco]

Nothing can be solidly proven true. You can't even be sure you exist.
We're all morons, in our own way.

[VxDx]

for someone who has the ability to question existance, you sure do believe a lot of unproven ideas without question.

[makaveli121212]

well im not a ghost ill tell you that

[DracIV]

"arguing for and against things that cannot by solidly proven true..."

Ah, but they can be proven False!

[makaveli121212]

no, you cant prove the things true for the arguement and you cant prove the things against true either

[aleco]

for someone who has the ability to question existance, you sure do believe a lot of unproven ideas without question.

What else can you believe? Nothing is really truly proven.

So you have to believe unproven things too.

[VxDx]

existentialism doesn't make logic and concrete evidence equal to stories and speculation.

[JustJono]

I remember (on page 2, I need a friggin' life) JewPin said that the church says that the universe spins around our solar system. I think the real statement in the Bible meant to say the Sun revolved around in a galaxy. The quote included the words, ".. as the sun goes it's course.." blah blah, I don't really remember the rest very well.

Also, I'm quite mad at the people who regarded the mentally ill and gay as "evil" or "sinners." I'm sure that wasn't God's purpose for creating them. When you fall in love with someone, or choose friends with someone, the morally right thing to do is to look at what's on the inside of that person, not on the outside. I think the same thing applies. If you're born with a disability, the moral is to learn that it's not what's on the outside that counts. It's your actual person - the personality inside you.

[perfect_fat]

Also, I'm quite mad at the people who regarded the mentally ill and #$* as "evil" or "sinners." I'm sure that wasn't God's purpose for creating them.

Or maybe they're possessed by demons, or have sold their souls to Lucifer.

[DracIV]

Sorry about bringing this back, but I came up with an AWESOME reply to the original topic:

What guest says makes a big dent in perfect fat’s opinion. When you look at life as a gift, one to be enjoyed, then it has enough meaning. Do you really need a purpose determined by someone else to guide you to happiness? Just being alive and making life enjoyable is purpose enough for me, and even better it is a purpose I choose to follow, not one that is defined for me. And in doing what they enjoy, people show more passion, emotion, and creativity than they would following specific religious rituals that are mostly insincere. Science need not be a religion, especially not like the ones of the past. I see a future where humans have used the tools they granted themselves and spread to millions of worlds, creating paradise that many only dream of. People walking through magnificent forests or through gigantic caverns that they fostered and nutured. With science we can make up for all our failings and far more, spreading life and happiness to all parts of the universe. In this way people can live lives where they are truly happy doing what they truly enjoy. For all we know, humans may find immortality and that happiness shall last forever with no need of a God or afterlife. It’s the promise of an afterlife that makes people accept terrible lives and pain-filled years. When you take away that delusion and show people to the true escape, you do not crush their humanity but instead make it the most it can possibly be. Science does not destroy creativity and emotion and thought, for it is those things, it is the search caused by those things for ultimate happiness.

The essence of our humanity truly does exist in philosophy, emotion, and thought, but we only think spirituality is part of it.