Is the concept of spacetime logical? [Archive]

Specforces

03-11-2004, 08:09 AM

Now I know science claims that time can speed up, and can produce mathematical equations to support this.

However, being more interested in in the subject from a philosophical stand point than science or maths, I have great trouble with the logic of 'time' speeding up. If it is proved philosophically illogical, does this then nullify scientific and mathematical proof? After all philosophy has pointed out how both science and mathematics rely on certain assumptions.

Anyway - here are some of my thoughts on the subject of time:

Time is a measurement system. It deals with short durations and long durations. A short duration is fast and long duration is slow. THe longer the duration of the measure the slower the measure. So surely it is the 'duration of the measure' that can be speedier or not, not 'time' itself as a measurement system.

Lets compare this with the measurement system of tempurature. You can have degrees of hot or cold within the tempurature system. But the Temperature 'system' itself cannot get hotter or colder. That is talking nonsense.

If I fly to another part of space where I age more quickly and the plants grow faster, and then fly back to earth and I look much older than you who have stayed on this planet, does that mean time went faster on the foreign planet. Or does it just mean the physical laws of nature move at a faster rate. After all, we all know there is a medical condition on earth where some people age very quickly. Was time faster on the other planet? Again. How could it have been; time itself can't speed up. Even if I perceived that time was going at a slow rate on the foreign planet doesn't necessarily mean it actually was. After all, we all know that time can appear to go fast when we're having fun and slowly when we're bored.

lightdarkness

03-11-2004, 10:39 AM

Time is a set thing, you cant speed it up, or slow it down

and time travel, that cant happen either

it just doesnt make any sence what so ever, and, i dunno, it just doesnt make any sense

VxDx

03-11-2004, 01:41 PM

Time dilation is as much of a fact as any physics. It has been proven by atomic clocks, and what it insinuates has been proven by the many predictions that it has made and have been experimentally verified.

If you trust any science at all, you might as well trust that time dilation is a fact.

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 02:43 PM

the idea is crazy...the same weirdos that made up physics of a way of explaining how things work came up with many ridiculous ideas...this being one...time is constant, it always has been and it always will be...

VxDx

03-11-2004, 02:49 PM

Then why, when two atomic clocks were flown around the world at super sonic speeds, and then returned to the same location, did they differ by exactly the amount that is predicted by the time dilation equation of special relativity?

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 02:51 PM

because time is constant

VxDx

03-11-2004, 02:52 PM

n0b

BluE_MeaniE

03-11-2004, 05:26 PM

From the outside, it doesn't make sense. But specifically, when you really look into it, it seems clear that time does change. I'm going to have to go with physics on this one.
But Spec, I do agree with some things you say. It's kind of strange; the whole system itself speeds up. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
But then again, there are tons of things that don't make too much sense, but are (probably) true and definite fact.

trillobyite

03-11-2004, 06:04 PM

Well, time isn't just events that flow through, time is actually its own...dimension. The fourth dimension? That's time. Its something we cant see like we see 3-d objects, but its there. Guys, do some research into Einstein's theory of relativity and special theory of relativity, which are pretty much proven to be correct. I am completely against the philosophical views on this, because science has proven these things that make absolutely no sense and are very strange, quantum-mechanics is one example. That stuff really scares the shit out of me, not because the ideas that sprout from them are just messed up, bur because experiments have been made to prove this true. A black hole guys, is a rip through the space-time continuum, thats why if someone falls in a black hole he will be falling and falling forever, while people outside the black hole will see him in the same exact spot that he fell in for over 60 years. And about what vxdx is saing, I think he is trying to explain the theory of special relativity, which proves that time travel is possible, if we could reach anything even close to light speed. But just look into the 2 theroies, they should explain everything.

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 08:24 PM

time dilation has no practical use and probably never will...well according to that 'theory' if i lived on a train traveling 5000 mph i time would move faster for me than the people that are just standing around....therefor i will get older faster, right? try to make sense of something as crazy as that...another thing i dont understand is that this equation of special realtivity, if im not mistaken, is based partly on c, the speed of light...how can you possibly calculate anythings velocity if time is not constant...i know its one of einsteins assumed postulates but it still doesnt register

VxDx

03-11-2004, 08:48 PM

well, special relativity is where the idea of light speed being a constant and a physical limit. If, in special relativity, something, no matter how small, achieved the speed of light, time, to an outside observer, would stop completely for whatever was going that fast. The particle (lets say) would be cease to exist in the direction of it's travel, and the momentum would be infinite, as would the energy. This is why photont, which travel at the speed of light, ahve no mass. Interesting to say the least.

According to special relativity, the person traveling at some speed notices no difference, but would see everything outside of his frame of reference as traveling at a faster pace, theoretically. Alternately, time for the person traveling would seem to slow down for the person as observed by a person at rest. It follows the equation...

t=to/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) where t is the outside observed time, to is the observed time in motion, v is velocity and c is the speed of light.

Time dilation does have some very interesting and practical uses in the field of particle physics, specifically with regards to particle accelerators and the calculations that predict the outcome of atomic collisions.

Omeganitros

03-11-2004, 08:57 PM

Unless it affects me and eating my yummy ice cream, I dont care.

Just my .0001 cents worth.

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 09:07 PM

yeah the equation is great, it has no relevance here, but its great :roll: ...but still how can the speed of light be constant when at different times we are moving at different speeds, and therfor the speed of everything would change relative to the observer

and im sure the outcome of atomic collisions is a very practical use

AlbinoLime

03-11-2004, 09:09 PM

Seriously makaveli, I think you got it all backwards. Here is an example:
If i were in a jet going close to the speed of light and traveled for a very long time and then landed, the people around me would be much older than they were when i left, and i would have aged normally. Because i think one of the theories was that when somebody travels at large speed time actually "speeds up" for everything around you, so everything ages faster. That's why my physics teacher said that time travel is possible, but only in the forward direction.

the idea is crazy...the same weirdos that made up physics of a way of explaining how things work came up with many ridiculous ideas...this being one...time is constant, it always has been and it always will be...

Dude you got that one way backwards. Philosophers are the "weirdos" that make things up based on thier opinions and thier culture to explain how things work.

A black hole guys, is a rip through the space-time continuum, thats why if someone falls in a black hole he will be falling and falling forever, while people outside the black hole will see him in the same exact spot that he fell in for over 60 years.
Dude where the hell did you get that theory, a comic book? Prof. Stephen Hawking (the black hole expert in the wheelchair) has done much reserch on black holes. And Black holes are not a rip through the "space-time continuum", they are the remains of a (sometimes) giant dead star, collapsed by its own gravity. If you "fall" into a black hole you would not "fall" forever, you would be crushed. The gravity made by black holes is so strong not even light can escape it, that's why they are "black". Actually the only thing that can get away from a black hole is sound becasue it was recently discovered that black holes produce a sound that is so low-piched that no living being can hear it (cnn.com). another thing I learned from research (not comic books), is that if you go through a black hole feet first you will be able to feel the pain of being spagettified for a split second because your nerve impulses move at a speed just above what you would be traveling at if you were sucked into a black hole (cnn.com).

AlbinoLime

03-11-2004, 09:13 PM

sorry for the double post but it seems makaveli121212 has once again blessed us with his smartness. WTF are you talking about when you say the equation has no relevance here??? It's probably the most relevant thing said so far. Thanks VxDx for explaining what i was trying to. aaaand makaveli121212, stfu and do some research please.

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 09:15 PM

yeah i think i do have it backwards, whatever, its not important for the conversation anyway...and no physics people made all these things up, and made their constants, and their limits and their units, everything...lets not get off topic, is spacetime logical

Omeganitros

03-11-2004, 09:15 PM

Spagettified....Dude, that's my new word now.

makaveli121212

03-11-2004, 09:17 PM

you wouldnt feel anything, youd be sucked in faster than you can blink

*EDIT* in response to the insults thrown at me...why do you feel the equation has anything to do with whether space time is logical or not...

AlbinoLime

03-11-2004, 09:36 PM

The equation explains WHY it is logical, people have to make up equations to explain things, things dont come out of thin air, people have to discover them. By the way, where do you get your research makaveli121212? I looked at cnn.com (was a while ago), and they cited some pretty crditable sources about the pain of going into a black hole.

makaveli121212

03-12-2004, 05:35 AM

Specforces

03-12-2004, 06:00 AM

Most of you are quoting classic textbook scientific theory, I am viewing this from a philosophical perspective. Ok here's a scenario that will further explain and expound on my point.

I am imagining 2 houses. I live in one of them. My neighbour in the other. I spend the morning measuring my lounge. I write down the measurements. Then something magical happens. My house suddenly grows bigger. But not only does my house grow bigger, so does everything in it, including me and my ruler. I measure my lounge again and write down the meausrements of the bigger lounge. Then my house and everything in it suddenly shrinks back to normal size again. Then I suddenly notice that the two lots of measurements of the lounge are recorded as being exactly the same on my piece of paper. How could this possibly be so when the lounge was so much bigger the second time round?

The answer is of course because I was using a different sized ruler (ie. a different measurement system - although I wrongly 'perceived it as being the same measurement system). It was the measurement systems that changed, not 'length' itself. Length did not get longer.
If my neighbour was to sneak into my lounge and measure it after the growing had taken place, with his normal sized (small) ruler and measured my lounge, his measurement results would be completely different to my second lot.

A parallel analogy could be made of time. And as with 'length' 'time' cannot cannot speed up. We might percieve it as speeding up if we compare experiences in the changes of physical laws (other than time) like me and my house getting bigger. But neither length nor time themselces can change. Only our perceptions change. Just because our perceptions are 'tricked' doesn't mean want they percieved was correct.

Time cannot speed up. Maybe other laws of nature can change in relation to each other - but not time itself.

This raises a further fascinating question. Does time then really exist at all? Or is it just a figment of our perception? Certainly if time doesn't really exist then it can't be said to be able to speed it. If something doesn't actually exist it can't actually be said to 'do' anything.

alainbryden

03-12-2004, 02:13 PM

Time isn't a dimention of it's own. It can be expressed at a function of the 3 actual dimentions. When you consider that time has just always been an expression oif the possition of the earth relative to the sun, time can be expressed as a conceptual three-dimentional vector.

for example, let the center of the sun represent vercto (0,0,0), or the origin.
the time, therefore, is defined as being (x,y,z) depending on it's position relative to the sun.
Depending on the rotational axis to the sun relative to the axis position of the earth, we can get the time of day, as well as year, all expressed through vectors.

Yeah, it's more complicated than V=d/t, but it renders the concept of time travel obsolete because it eliminates all the assumptions created by making time an intangeable dimention of it's own.

jazzmosis

03-12-2004, 02:22 PM

Messing around with time is novel, but for real travel a concept of wormholes or "bending space" would be far more efficent to travel around.. that way you don't bugger with time/space continuium. (interesting spelling...)

We'd literally have to freeze time/aging/molecules to travel some distances in space...

AlbinoLime

03-12-2004, 03:36 PM

yes because everyone knows what going through a blackhole is like...i mnot gonna get off subject, but a black hole basically would atomize you...of course before that actually happened your limbs would be ripped off you, and your head too...

that equation alone does not prove that it is logical...if the equation makes it so logical, care to explain why it makes it so...if we were debating whether or not force existed, F = m*a would hardly be relevant

'people have to make up equations to explain things'...didnt you just say that physicians didnt make things up to explain things and that i had it backwards

Seriously dude. You would be spagettified, not really ripped apart. This is mostly because when you are being sucked into a black hole you will be experiencing different amounts of gravity; the closer you get to the hole, the faster you will move toward it. Since your whole body can't be in one point at a time you will be pulled at different speeds, so you will be turned into human spagetti, only you would be 1 long noodle. Nobody knows what going into black holes will be like, but people have ideas. Ad the idea of you being able to feel the pain if you went head first came up because people compared the speed of the nervous system to the speed you might be entering a black hole. And almost anybody can think of how painful it would be to be rolled out like play-doh.

VxDx

03-12-2004, 05:35 PM

Most of you are quoting classic textbook scientific theory, I am viewing this from a philosophical perspective. Ok here's a scenario that will further explain and expound on my point.....*edited out to save space. You know what you said*

Well, if you want to go philosophical, how can you know what you percieve as time exists? Futhermore, how can you know that what you consider reality is as you believe it is?

I posted the equation for the exact reason that the equations exists. It symbolically identifies what effect different variables have on time, and also gives limits as to what the values of those variables can be.

What does it have to do with the discussion at hand? Well it happens to be an experimentally verified equation, and one that is used in countless other higher level equations in physics. It would indicate, then, that the theories proposed by the physicists has some merit, particularly when they have been verified to the best ability of science.

for more of an explanation of special relativity, without offending makaveli by stating something relevant, go here. http://science.howstuffworks.com/relativity.htm

makaveli121212

03-12-2004, 07:21 PM

still, as this has been avoided, if i were cloned and one of me lives on a satellite traveling 50000 miles per hour and the other me lives on a satellite going 0 mph and we lived the exact same lives, you would say the me traveling faster would live longer right

VxDx

03-12-2004, 07:28 PM

Well, if one of you were traveling 50000 miles per hour and the other weren't, you wouldn't be leading the same lives now would you. Plus, to yourselves, assuming you both live the same amount of time, you would think that you are living the same amount of time, but relative to a body at rest, the person at rest would die earlier in the at rest frame of reference, according to special relativity.

Specforces

03-12-2004, 08:03 PM

Master_of_PARANOiA

03-12-2004, 08:19 PM

This raises a further fascinating question. Does time then really exist at all? Or is it just a figment of our perception? Certainly if time doesn't really exist then it can't be said to be able to speed it. If something doesn't actually exist it can't actually be said to 'do' anything.

That's what I was trying to get at here VxDx, thanks for adding merit to your arguements, I have a newfound respect for you.

I do too.

I don't believe that time can speed up, however it is a measurement that was created by humans (the system of time: minutes, hours, seconds, year, millenia, etc) so technically we could change it to be faster. For example: one second is 1000 milliseconds, we could change one second to reflect 500 milliseconds and thus make our concept of time "faster".

Just my 3.1415926[insert last _____________ digits of pi] cents

makaveli121212

03-12-2004, 09:03 PM

exactly...everything that we know of as physics was basically made up...and not to say made up like it was imaginary, so i dont offend you physics queers, but taking educated statements and aplpying them to explain the world and how and why it works the way it does...the theory makes some sense, but is it logical? i say no, not because i believe it isnt fact...it is fact, but to any human mind it should be illogical or your brain isnt functioning correctly...its really hard to put my thoughts into words, and im sure this postis going to sound pretty poorly, but you can probably see where im coming from

VxDx

03-12-2004, 10:11 PM

What you say makes a lot of sense. Physics and math and all that are really just systems. The beauty of them is that they help to define what our environment is. To me, it's almost like the brain cannot accept some fact straight off. The brain wonders why it is true, but the why isn't really asking "why?" in the sense that the brain really wants to know, it's asking "why?" in the sense that it needs some idea of the inner workings, it wants to know how things work together, and the easiest and most logical way to express such complex ideas is with math. Math, in and of itself, is a system whereby one can define certain ideas. The beauty and draw of math, for me at least, is how it builds upon itself, not necessarily because it was designed to do so, but because as an ordered system it has to. For instance, on the surface, you can take what you learn in math and apply it. I'm not most people, but it's my belief that that is what most people do. Then there are the mathematicians, who look further behind to find out why, or who find out why to build up the ideas of mathematics. An example; Calculus was developed out of the fact that it has some very interesting uses and very simple definitions and processes. Most people look at calculus and can understand how to manipulate the numbers, but they don't understand why you manipulate the numbers in that way to get the derivative, or integral, or anything. In this case, it's the really brilliant minds that develop and understand these things.

Getting back on track... as far as the theory being "logical", I say no. It's so far off from any experience that people have that nobody should just blindly say "yeah, that sounds about right" when told about time dilation for the first time. It's almost as though, because no one really knows the "why" of time dilation, they just know the "what", it's harder for the mind to comprehend. I believe, however, that the intent of this post was to discuss whether or not time dilation was thought to actually occur, as in "though the idea cannot really be "seen" by people, does the theory make sense in a that-could-happen kind of way?". As far as this question goes, I do think that time dilation makes sense, and I do believe that this is truly what happens at those high speeds.

makaveli121212

03-12-2004, 10:30 PM

exactly...its not only that were asking why, its why were asking why...i think there are certain ideals embedded in each individuals mind from the begining...and whether you want to believe time dilation or not you still cant hlep but get thoughts of it not being true because certain things were told to you over long periods of time

JustJono

03-13-2004, 03:33 AM

I personally don't believe in "time". All that time is, is erosion, whatever. It's just the action of *happening*. If you poked a bottle of rat poison and it fell over, that isn't time: that's a bottle of rat poison falling over. I don't understand why there has to be a dimension, or a special name for something so .. so something you don't have to pay attention to. You don't need a whole 'timeline' or a big 'timeframe' to be living. To be living, all you have to do is be living.

I just realized now how hard it is to describe my thoughts on this in words. But hopefully you get my point.

VxDx

03-13-2004, 08:21 AM

I see your point, but I think you are looking at it the wrong way. You are looking at the changes that the passing of time creates as being what people think time is. Time, however, is what is passing that creates those occurances. I think that you look at it like this because time is such an abstract idea on the most basic level that it's hard to comprehend, so the common idea of time relates to the effects of time, more specifically it's passing, so you just eliminate time and just take the occurances as happening. This, I don't think, is the correct way of looking at it. Something has to change for those things to happen, and that change is what we commonly call time.

I guess that was a pretty poor explanation of my thoughts, so nevermind it if you don't understand what I'm saying.

makaveli121212

03-13-2004, 09:46 AM

time exists because we allow it to exist...and we need time to exist and be measurable so we can get to school and work and partys at the same time...without a constant, measurable amount of time things on earth wouldnt run very efficiently

Omeganitros

03-13-2004, 01:14 PM

Its like this: The Rules Of Logic only apply to logic. If you use it on something else, it wont work. Its like using the rules of Chess to play Hungry Hungry Hippos. And as far as Im concerned, reality is not logic. So I dont think spacetime is either.

makaveli121212

03-13-2004, 02:00 PM

agreed, its hard to apply logic to something that isnt logical

jazzmosis

03-13-2004, 08:38 PM

agreed, its hard to apply logic to something that isnt logical

Example: Human idealogy.

makaveli121212

03-13-2004, 09:49 PM

well for instance in calc i learned a few months ago a theorem called MVT...Mean Value Theorem...if you trying to find the are under the curve of a function, per se x^2 over the interval (2,6) you cannot simply use algebra because it is a curve...what the mean value theorem states is that if you find the average height of the graph within that interval and mutiply it by 6-2, the width, you would get the correct area...however, there are an infinite number of heights throughout the graph of x^2 where x is between 2 and 6...the theorem works all the time, but the idea of finding an average of an infinite amount of numbers isnt very logical...

this post was too long for the point i was trying to make...i couldnt think of anything better though...you get the point though

AlbinoLime

03-14-2004, 08:11 PM

but to any human mind it should be illogical or your brain isnt functioning correctly

So....what you're saying is that if the equation makes sense to anybody their brain does not work properly? Maybe it's your brain that does not work.....

makaveli121212

03-14-2004, 08:49 PM

nope, not at all...you need to learn to read...im talking about the concept, not the equation pal...it was certainly implied to say the least...

Anonymous

03-16-2004, 04:15 PM

You can speed up nature but you cannot speed up time, and why would u want to ne ways wouldn't you rather know how to slow time down?

VxDx

03-16-2004, 05:04 PM

You can speed up nature but you cannot speed up time

clearly you missed the point and don't know what you're talking about.

Specforces

03-17-2004, 05:48 AM

Agreed.

deposition

03-17-2004, 07:41 AM

lol guest evertone knows that we can slow down time, were just looking at it from a logical stand point.

makaveli121212

03-17-2004, 02:22 PM

no, it just isnt intuitive...physics people made the equation and it works and the expermients prove it works but they really cant explain why it works, we just dont look into it...similarly to things at the atomic level...it isi known that electrons move from point A to point B, but how they get there is a mystery, and researchers have given up trying to find out...there is no real reason to understand why because it just is and the equations work the way they do

VxDx

03-17-2004, 03:59 PM

and researchers have given up trying to find out

ummm...everything else was right, but there is definately still research going on in particle physics and special relativity.

makaveli121212

03-17-2004, 04:01 PM

well that was talking about electrons and no there isnt much research going on there at all...some, yeah sure, but it is regarded as fact and it is unexplainable so it is left at that

Specforces

03-18-2004, 08:07 AM

Well, thanks for your thoughts, this topic is almost dead. I'll try to think of something else that will be interesting.

Jello

03-22-2004, 05:58 AM

ill bump this topic because i want too. Ill just say one thing. Time is a constant just like the maximum speed of light is. Think of it this way. if you are travelling at the speed of light and you have a flashlight that you shine in front of you, Is the speed of that light protruding out of the flashlight going faster than what you are travelling at? the answer is no because speed is relative. the light shining out from that flashlight is moving away from you at 186 000 mps (miles per second). it is moving that fast from your stand point. so time has the same concept to a degree. Time might be different for you than it is for someone else. but time is a constant based on your perception. ie... someone in gym class will have fun and go through it "quicker" then you will in your math class because they are enjoying it. it doesnt mean that time has sped up for them.. it just means there perception of time is different.

Anonymous

03-22-2004, 07:20 PM

I have got to be honest with you guys and I know this is a little behind, but after having read all that has been posted I feel like so smrt.

Afrobean

03-22-2004, 07:32 PM

Sorry about that guest thing that was me, afrobean (just incase im not logged in again; I'm not sure)

SotN

03-23-2004, 03:08 AM

Take two hypotetical plots of land with grass on them. Say a black hole were to spawn on one field and somehow not effect the other.

If I were to stand on the empty field (field A), any object being sucked into the black hole would appear to move at an incredibly slow rate.

If you stood on the other field (field B), things would be sucked into the hole at a rate you would expect crap to be sucked into a singularity, yet I would move extremely fast.

Ignore the fact this example is completely and totally impossible to witness according to physics, please. Does this mean that time moves faster for me on field A or slower for you on field B? Nope.

Simply put, time is relative. What you experience and what I experience have absolutly no bearing on each other.

Ignore the bad pun, too.

perfect_fat

03-24-2004, 02:39 AM

Time is relative. The entire universe could slow down and we wouldn't notice it, because we would be slowing down too.

Afrobean

03-25-2004, 05:33 PM

Oh my god, perfect fat is a friggin genius!
I'm not even being sarcastic they made this whole concept make about 5 times more sense.

makaveli121212

03-26-2004, 05:27 AM

but if we were slowing down wouldnt days last longer and years be longer

AlbinoLime

03-28-2004, 04:00 AM

Specforces

04-2-2004, 08:07 AM

Prove it.

alainbryden

04-2-2004, 12:20 PM

pwnd

AlbinoLime

04-2-2004, 03:27 PM

prove what?

Anonymous

04-2-2004, 05:52 PM

AlbinoLime

04-12-2004, 02:01 PM

You don't have a track record, if you do then I have not seen it. Anyways, you are only half right, If the universe and everything in it slowed down then time would be measured in the same way. 24 hours will still take 24 hours to complete, but compared to the 24 hours before the universe slowed down the slower universes days would seem longer. Days and years would not be longer, they would take the same amount of time to complete. Now that I think about it, you are wrong.....and I won......

makaveli121212

04-12-2004, 02:35 PM

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

you said it yourself nUb, now you contradict yourself...thats not the way to win...

AlbinoLime

04-13-2004, 12:51 PM

Anonymous

04-17-2004, 12:36 AM

This post is going to be really long because im gonna draw a picture. THIS IS NOT SPAM!!
Ok, time actually is the 4th dimension. It works exactly like a dimension. If i were to tell you to meet me on the corner 52nd street(length) and ave 22 (width) on the 15th floor(height), you would immediately ask me, "when?" I would have to define for you a 4th coordinate for the "position" function (2:00 in the afternoon). that is how time exists in the universe; we made up the system of measure, but not time itself.
That being said, time dialation occurs because it is a dimension.

Pretend you are in a car going 50 kph in a straight line; you are moving in one dimension and it will take you 1 hour to go 50 km IN THAT dimension.

Finish ----------------------
^
| 1 hour
|
Start------------------------

Now you are going 50 kph at a 45 degree angle to your previous course. You are travelling for a "longer period of time" (heheh) to go the same distance IN THAT dimension.

Finish ---------------------
^
\
\ longer than 1 hour
\
Start ------------------------

Now extrapolate that pattern out to four dimensions. No one here can deny that we are travelling through time; we cant stop(easily). But when we move, we are using some of our "speed through time" to go in the other 3 dimensions. That is why time "moves slower" as you go faster. It is also why time stops when you reach the speed of light. ALL of your "time speed" is going into motion. Like so:

Finish -----------------

----------------------->

Start -------------------

You wil NEVER get to the finish line....

I hope that helps explain it logically.

Anonymous

04-17-2004, 12:38 AM

Hrmm... my picures didnt come out right... *sigh*

Thingy

04-17-2004, 11:18 AM

Grrr.... that was me by the way

alainbryden

04-17-2004, 06:46 PM

nice triple post. but no.
Time was, like you said, invented by humans, but it is not a dimention just because we use it to specify meeting places and such. One could just as easily say "meet me at coordinates (334,123,049) with the center of the earth as the origin 'when' the earth is at coordinates (2930,192834,4321) with the center of the sun as the origin." Same concept as time, infact, the coordinates could represent the second, day, week, year, etc, but the system of "time" was invented to allow for a much more regular representation of the earths position relative to the sun. "time" is just the continuity of atoms, molecules, objects etc. reacting with eachother. This continuity cannot be altered.

Thingy

04-18-2004, 10:26 AM

If there was no such thing as time then nothing would ever happen.
Only our units if measure were invented by us. There are still things that have happened, that are happening, and that will happen regardless if we believe time exists or not.

Also, your system of measure also relys on the fact that the system of the earth is the origin. You have specified a specific point in space. But regardless if you can describe the whole planet with that system, what about something that never moves, or some random point out there that has nothing in it. In order to define any given point as the origin, you must define it in the 3 space dimensions otherwise we have no idea where your starting point is and you havent truly differentiated your starting point from the rest of the universe. So really, in that system of measure, you still have 3 space dimensions and one time dimension, the space dimensions are just implied from the origin.

Also, by calling time a continuity, you have just defined the term dimension. Thats what all the space dimensions are also, continuities in 3 separate directions.

Nightstar

05-3-2004, 01:20 PM

Thingy said it very very well, okay. Time IS the 4th dimension. you move throught it in EXACTLY the same way you move through the regular 3.

To explain this, try this. Sit in your chair, being very still. you are not moving in the regular 3 dimensions, but you are still moving through time, it may not "look" like the other 3, but it works the same way.

as for time dilation, let me put it this way, time is maleable, just like the other dimensions. if i was to go the speed of light(somehow) the trip would be instant. i would be like-im here at earth, 3,2,1, launch. okay, that was a nice trip, here i am all the way across the galaxy. i would be the same age. but time still passed. it would be 135,000 years later on earth. that is standard physics, it is fact. we are not changing the way we measure time, we are changing the way we MOVE THROUGH it. Time is relative to the perspective of the observer.

as for the black whole thing, the gravity from the black whole changes the way you go through time, it warps time, and makes you accelerate into it, so if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

suicidalmuskrat

05-3-2004, 11:06 PM

Makaveli.....you don't grasp concepts easily, do you? The guy said "Time is relative. The entire universe could slow down and we wouldn't notice it, because we would be slowing down too."

Lemme just repeat one part of what he said, just so it will sink in, "we wouldn't notice it"....

The days would last "longer", but if the universe slowed down (and everything in it (including time)), then the days would still be 24 hours. It would just be a longer 24 hours than it was when the universe was faster. Get it yet?

this is mak, im just too lazy to log in...so what youre saying is that my statement was exactly right, days and years would, in fact, be longer...why do you insist on turning everything into an arguement...my track recors speaks for itself, if you do want to argue with me, you will lose

actually this whole day arguments simply depends on whether or not you are talking about a sidereal day or a solar day...basically whether you define a day as 24 hours, or define it as the time it takes for the earth to make one rotation...obviously the correct way to define this would one rotation, in which case if everything slowed down a day would be longer from an observer outside the universe, but the same to us.

As for all this stuff about time travel--backwards time travel is not possible at all...forward time travel is not exactly possible, just living longer. Also, I don't care what cnn.com says, sound can not escape from the singularity of a black hole. black holes do emit some matter, and that matter could produce sound. And as for the pain question, i'm not really sure. I would think not, because our nerves don't relay information to our brain faster than the speed of light, and if light can't escpape, then neither could our nerve "transmissions".

None of this had to do with the original post, but neither have the last 3 pages, so i don't feel too bad.

alainbryden

05-4-2004, 06:15 AM

Don't really have time to re-argue my point, but...

To explain this, try this. Sit in your chair, being very still. you are not moving in the regular 3 dimensions, but you are still moving through time, it may not "look" like the other 3, but it works the same way.

You are still moving throught three dimentions, constantly, you may not notice it because you are not moving relative to earth, but you are always moving relative to something. The example I used was the sun, but that's only because that's what humans used to invent time in the first place. You could use my measure of time with any point as the origin, because time is, as you said, relative :P

if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

That's cool :D

Nightstar

05-4-2004, 06:22 AM

alainbryden, of course you are still moving in the 3d, you can never stop moving. It was just an example. Shit, if you calculate in the speed of the galaxy, and the speed of earth, we are probably moving pretty quick. Thats a thought.

Quote:
if you were falling into a black whole, and "survived" long wnough to reach high speeds, you could technically watch the entire infinity of time pass by you, or at least until you were destroyed. that is IF you could stay alive, which is highly suspect.

That's cool

yea, it is. Who want to go jump into a black hole?

Anonymous

05-4-2004, 02:35 PM

i think the idea you are having a problem with is the reletive part yes times does speed up and slow down and they are even finding that even in some spots a foot by a foot that time may be travling faster then it is next to it.
the big problem is we live in the 3rd demention and to be able to mesure time in anyway that we are not in it we have to be in the 4 demenion se yes we can say its been a second and the person at the begging was kind of right cuz we are stuck in the 3rd demention and stuck in the time getting longer and shorter with us in it then our meshurment doesnt change here in the 3 demention "Reletivity" but if you were in the 4th you would beable to step out of time. then you could see the time speeding up and slowing down in spots but since everything is reletive here we cant few more things about the 4 demention if you can get into it and since you can step out of time you could come back into the third demention at any time you wanted. also you dont have to travel threw the third demention when you go into the 4th you can travel without time there by connecting any and all spots on the 3d. demmnion now the even more confusing part. with there being no time and no distance out side the third demention you can be in two places at once in the third dementions or you could be everywhere in the third demention.. it is also thought that there may be a "higher being" rember moth man profices there ya go

Nightstar

05-4-2004, 05:29 PM

oh.my god. I.... um. er. ouch.

what the hell are you talking about? I....my eyes!

Anonymous

05-4-2004, 06:10 PM

lol ya i had smoked before that hahahha. we can mesure time cuz we are stuck in it thats all if you can get outside of time then you can see it speeding up and slowing like in the time machine when the guy was inside the macine and everything outside it was changeing once you got outside of time you could watch it move around and swirl and build up in places like a river flowing over the universe but with everything inside time is reletive we will ever see it

themanwithsauce

05-7-2004, 06:04 AM

i have this question, if time is a dimension then we can alter it to our will(to an extent). We have 3 physical dimensions as humans and we dont keep the same length height or width so we should be able to alter others including time right? I dont know if this is true or not and i dont know if my theory makes any sense at all.

alainbryden

05-7-2004, 06:26 AM

wtf... if time is a dimention, then the theory is that we can alter it every time we change our velocity. If it isn't, then we can't. One is necessarily dependant on the other. You can't use one to prove the other, you get a vicious circle of stupidity.

Thingy

05-7-2004, 03:41 PM

uhhh... but we do alter time for ourselves when we change velocity...

DracIV

05-7-2004, 06:52 PM

If someone hopped on a space ship and went near-light-speed to the nearest star we know of, only about 1 year would go by for him. For us it would be 10,000.

Dimensions are not alterable. That man on the ship may have only experienced a millionth of the time we did, but time itself did not alter. Your interactions with dimensions can be altered, the dimensions can't. Just because I become taller doesn't mean I changed the dimension Height by stretching it. I can become fatter and not alter the dimension Width, for altering either of those two dimensions alters everything, and that type of interaction isn't possible. The same is true for Depth and Time. The universe must have all 4 of those to exist. Time could be summarized very simply: change. Change is everywhere, even in absolutely nothing.