Genetic Engineering, Uber Humans...or Doomsday?

[SephirothFF7]

Hmmm..Well this is quite the juicy topic, Genetic Engineering holds the secrets to eliminating disease and such. We could even make a race of super humans (note how i said super human NOT SUPER HERO) This woulod basically mean that an egg could be fertilized witht he genes of an olympic athlete. But higher levels in genetic engineering could also lead to higher levels in chemical warfare potency...Also how would these true "test tube" babies feel with no parents???? Would our own creations turn against us?? This is a juicy topic, have fun!

[makaveli121212]

well not really...i dont know that athleticism is passed through genes...well it is to a certain degree, but you know...this wont happen because there is no benefit to grow babies of this kind...now eventually when aids has killed us all, which it will becuase it cant be cured and it cant be detected for long periods of time and it spreads like mad, there would be a use for these people...i believe people with a mutated CCR5 docking protein dont allow the hiv to enter their CD4 cells so they are actually immune to aids...so eventually natural selection will kill everyone excpet those with a mutated CCR5 or an artificial one...whatever, im sure no one knows what im talking about anyway

[SephirothFF7]

The genes can be inserted into the human genome at a very young stage of life while the baby is still in the womb or even before the egg is fertilized, sorry I didn't use the right words!! I meant that the gene would be inserted AFTER the egg was fertilized. We could actually alter athletecism intelligence, and the mutated protein could also be inserted making the baby immune to AIDs/HIV. But the problem is it doesn't always work, they did this to a monkey who is now EXTREMELY intelligent, but it took them close to 27 embryos....and of course they couldn't waste human embryos like this, goddamn catholic church and activists.

[makaveli121212]

yeah in theory we could if we knew what every gene did...the fact is we dont have a damn clue...there is so much DNA and only about 6% actually codes for protiens, the rest is just garbage...

[SpookG]

Wow, what a pile of shit you posted, makaveli. I bet your teacher gave you a lecture and you are trying to recall it verbatim since you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

And really, if you do, please explain it to me in more detail, from one microbiologist to another so I can grasp a better understanding of what you are attempting to discuss. ;)

Genes hold a lot more power than you realize, and no one still understands it to the full potential. Being good at sports isn't necessarily related to genes, so olympic athletes would still have to train for years to be the best in the world. Their abilities to comprehend and process information for a sport like say basketball could be transmissible, but it is akin to giving someone a piece of paper of all the test answers.

If they don't utilize it, then it doesn't really make a difference.

And it does work. It is just an equation with over 250k different variables, so it takes a while to understand what happens when you change just one part.

[SephirothFF7]

Thank You Spook, SEE MAKA I DO KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!....this time..

[makaveli121212]

ok so basically you stated what i did in my first response, that athleticism isnt really a trait passed on genes...and if your such a microbiologist what dont you understand...most of the research i did on aids was my own work and it is all fact...do you know that aids is still spreading, do you know we cant stop it, then guess what eventually it will kill everyone as it spreads, its common sense...as for the docking protiens, if you dont know how that works you dont know shit and arent worthy of this conversation...the basis of bringing auds into the picture was that it could be potentially cured by genetic manipulation...is that really hard to understand

[SephirothFF7]

The athleticism itslef can't be transferred but the genes required to BECOME that atheletic (like they say hitting the genetic jackpot) can be inserted along with genes that increase reaction times, agility, etc. traits that you are born with.

[SpookG]

Ok maka, wow me then and cite your sources, or present me with your thesis.. aids isn't going anywhere, it is HIV that is spreading. You know if someone lived in a perfectly sterile enviroment HIV wouldn't kill them? Why is that? What makes that different than a truly terminal disease like ebola?

so what's this docking protein, eh? What is CD4? Where does CD8 figure in? Why doesn't it recognize it as being an infected cell? When is someone considered to have full-blown AIDS? How does this protein "block" HIV from entering a cell?

I'm asking for you to explain it to me to prove you know what you're talking about, because it sounds to me like you're full of shit, so stop getting pissed and screaming and let's hear the explanations for your conclusions.

[makaveli121212]

CD4 cells are the backbones of the immune system...they activate CD8 and B cells...CD8 doesnt figure in directly...those, of course are the cytotoxic T cells which are made by the Heltper T cells, the CD4s...HIV attacks the CD4s and then eventually they stop producing CD8s and B cells when infected...CD8 would attack the infected CD4s but it cannot recognzie that the cell is overtaken...without CD8s and B cells, which make antibodies, there is no immune system...that is why people that have aids die from pneumnoia or karposi sarcoma or yeast infections...which are all common indicator diseases that our body easily takes care of everyday...full blown aids occurs when the number drops below 200 CD4 cells per mm cubed of blood...whereas normally you would have 1200 per...as you know im sure, before anything enters a cell it must dock on to the docking protein...you can only get in if you fit the docking protien...HIV fits on the CCR5, but not on the mutated one

btw aids is lethal...100% lethal in fact...if you get aids you will die because of it...not directly but you get the point...its so much more deadly than ebola because it cannot be detected right away and it will be spread before the person knows about it...ebolas symptoms show up within a few days and it can be quarntined and iraticated because of that

ill send you some stuff via a pm if i can find it...i no longer have it on my computer, so ill have to find it and scan it in, and then send it

[SephirothFF7]

Yeah, but ebola eats you alive...blleechh...*shudders* Ok I'll leave now! ^.^;;

[makaveli121212]

karposi sarcoma is very bad...looking back at my last post i realized i said CD4s make CD8s and B cells...well, i wasnt thinking, CD4s activate the B cells into plasma cells and the CD8s into Killer T cells...that my fault...oh and the CD4s do this via interleukin II

[VxDx]

bio fags.

[Cenright]

Just like inbreeding, if traits are homogenized too much, a disease will mutate and wipe out a huge population because of the low variation in genetic diversity.

[makaveli121212]

well spook i dont know what youre really trying to prove but i do know a little about the immune system and how aids affects it...whether i heard these facts from a teacher, a book, a newspaper, or off a website is irrelevant...i know what im talking about...trust me, i wouldnt waste my time researching all of this for nothing

[Dark_Mind]

Post your scorces please.

[makaveli121212]

you can start at CDC.gov
www.AIDS.org
www.unaids.org
www.aidsonline.com
www.hopkins-aids.edu
www.aidsaction.org
www.thebody.com

there are many more, but those are some...i used many resources from newespapers to magazines to biology too btw...


so what i didnt mention before...i said HIV gets into a CD4 cell and hijacks it, but i didnt really say how...its quite an easy thing to uderstand though...HIV gets into the cell and using reverse transcriptase makes a DNA copy of its RNA genome...of course transcriptase is a common protien in humans that makes an RNA copy of our DNA...hence reverse transcriptase...any way it makes a DNA copy of itself and then actullay imbeds thats chunk of DNA into the host cells DNA...it is irreversible...so as basic logic would have it, the best way to stop aids is to not let HIV into your CD4 cells

[RIAA]

To learn what genetic engineering will be like, I think you should look at computers, seeing as we upgrade them frequently, it would resemble humankind with enhancements. We all recieve enhancements to upgrade ourselves, and as we upgrade ourselves, we become better, faster, stronger, and smarter. We will not have the willpower that normal humans have, and our organic selves will be destroyed. Those with money will have the absolute power, and humans will not be able to compete with the enhanced beings. Organic humans will deteriorate, and the older enhanced beings will be nothing but outdated garbage. Everything will depend either on the power of your enhancements or the amount of currency you have. We will have created a new race, a race that can preform amazing feats that humankind couldn't even imagine. So, it's either a good or a bad thing, good if you want to advance science and explore space, and bad if you detest the constant upgrade of computers and the recycling the old, it's your call.

[makaveli121212]

well spook what do you have to say...i saw you on a few times today...i understand, you better get your story straight before you make a fool of yourself, or ill do it for you...

[Omeganitros]

Just like inbreeding, if traits are homogenized too much, a disease will mutate and wipe out a huge population because of the low variation in genetic diversity.

Bam.

[Master_of_PARANOiA]

*modifies his own genes* yay I have 15 arms and 4 legs.. I'M A MUTANT (w00t)

but to talk about the actual topic:

let's say we do make perfect humans (on a genetic level), would they turn on us? probably not.. remember that no matter what, they can still be killed. all we need is to plan ahead and get an army of people who could wait for that one day, everyone has shotguns and machine guns. perfect humans, without guns, or regular humans (and possibly some of the perfect humans), with guns, who would win?

I think we should stop trying to play god. you want engineer a potato that grows 5 times faster than a regular potato and can grow to be 10 times bigger? fine, just don't go making bears with wings, the strength of an elephant, and the intelligence of a (SMART!) human

[RIAA]

Humans will do things because they have the will to do them, no matter what even if you stop the "Perfect humans" once, mankind will try it again, and eventually they will fail. Humans trying to play God? Humans have God-like abilities already, the power of a God is the power to create, just walk up to someone and kick them, this creates a conflict between two human minds, and to one human mind, it creates pain. Just think of reality as the Imperial Forces in Star Wars, and the humans as the Rebels, they will eventually conquer over everything no matter even if it means having a man that can lift twelve blue whales, run faster than a cheetah, and think greater than any one else. It's only a matter of time...

[SpookG]

I just got home from work, son, and i don't believe for a second the crap about the mutated protein providing immunity against hiv completely, which is why I asked all those questions to begin with. Mutation is so high among viruses because of their replication process that I doubt very much it is probable, but i am leaving open a bit of room for it because I remeber something about a person in Australia having a unique condition to something, but i don't know what.

Don't even step to me and try to make me believe you're intelligent. You know nothing of HIV and AIDS. I've watched a half dozen people die to it firsthand and for you to tell me it is incurable is a sham. It will kill more people, yes, but it will not destroy every last person in this world. That's impossible. Anything that happens in this world can be altered or stopped, the only reason it isn't is because we don't possess the knowledge yet to do so. I don't particulary like hearing people make claims like that on a forum, especially since so many of the readers don't know much about it and just take what they hear as truth. that's how lies are propogated. If you wish to seed your thoughts with regurgitation of real science, then do so elsewhere. I'm finished with this argument, Makaveli. You've proved nothing to me.

[makaveli121212]

well how are you gonna stop it....how is anyone gonna stop it....it cant be stopped, so logic says everyone will eventually be exposed to it sometime...it may take 500 years but it will happen if it isnt stopped...im not trying to prove anything to you...it quite apparent you know nothing of the immune system or aids or anything...please, the only arguement ever made was that you didnt think i knew what i was talking about...that arguement failed horribly, i showed you up like none other...the fact is you think you know so much and you havent said anything on the subject, which makes me to believe you really dont know anything...im pretty sure youre a moron...you would call something a lie without having a damn clue...i sighted some resources did you even look at them...yeah thats what i thought...facts are facts...and the fact is you dont know shit...so stfu please, youre making a fool of yourself and embarassing your fellow biologist

*EDIT* there really is no arguement at all because all im doing is stating fact...if you want to argue about facts go ahead...the only thing i said that can be argued was that everyone will be exposed to AIDS...and logic and common sense and time say that, that is true...of course i cant predict the future but the hypotheis makes sense, and there is no way, right now, that you can refute that hypothesis

[VxDx]

I just got home from work, son, and i don't believe for a second the crap about the mutated protein providing immunity against hiv completely, which is why I asked all those questions to begin with. Mutation is so high among viruses because of their replication process that I doubt very much it is probable, but i am leaving open a bit of room for it because I remeber something about a person in Australia having a unique condition to something, but i don't know what.

Don't even step to me and try to make me believe you're intelligent. You know nothing of HIV and AIDS. I've watched a half dozen people die to it firsthand and for you to tell me it is incurable is a sham. It will kill more people, yes, but it will not destroy every last person in this world. That's impossible. Anything that happens in this world can be altered or stopped, the only reason it isn't is because we don't possess the knowledge yet to do so. I don't particulary like hearing people make claims like that on a forum, especially since so many of the readers don't know much about it and just take what they hear as truth. that's how lies are propogated. If you wish to seed your thoughts with regurgitation of real science, then do so elsewhere. I'm finished with this argument, Makaveli. You've proved nothing to me.

Ok, to start, I've always respected you a good deal, if only for the radio broadcast and all, but what you are saying is complete bullshit. Especially that you feel that you can talk down to makaveli ("son", "Don't even step to me and try to make me believe you're intelligent").

First off, I know nothing of this issue, so that's not what I'm going to address. I'd like to know, spook, just what it is you do that makes you such an expert on this. You said microbiologist earlier, and you seem to know a good bit about that, but I'm not sure. That would give me a bit more respect for your opinions, but still not much.

The way I see it is that you don't agree with makaveli's opinions and you question whether or not he knows what he's talking about. Obviously he does, seeing as he posted excellent support, however you retort with only that you don't believe him. You never give any support for your case. When you do bring it up you say that you have several friends who've had to deal with HIV/AIDS and you use that as though it entitles you to more intelligence on the topic. In reality though, it seems to me that it just ties you to the issue more emotionally and thus less logically.

As it stands, I'm more inclined to believe makaveli because you have come up with no support of your opinion spook.

[SpookG]

All right, fine.. You want support for my opinion? How about some common sense and a basic understanding of the disease.

HIV spreads through direct human contact. This is a huge thing to consider. Spit and sweat doesn't even cut it. Semen and blood, vaginal fluids. HIV can't survive very well outside of the human body, and it is unlikely it will evolve into a virus that can any time soon. That's why SARS was scary to health officials. It was airborn, and that makes the world of difference.

HIV infections were on a decline until about a year ago, because the preventive measures of education, sterilization of needles, arguments for safer sex, screening blood, etc.. It works, because it prevents direct contact. That means it can't spread any further.

So let's say it does kill off millions more and there is hardly anyone around. Well those who are left won't get infected then until they swap fluids with someone who is, and since it is harder for them to get to each other, i find this less likely to occur.

And another thing... People are living with AIDS longer, and death is subdued for a time because of drug treatments, but if that isn't good enough for you consider this. The culture of America is get it now instant or it can't be done, we're bored. Most people don't understand the molecular world is very complex. You know that watered down ATP chart you get in high school bio? The real one, involving the actual pathways, etc, is a surrealistic nightmare compared to it. And that is just a simple process. So much occurs on such a small scale, it is almost beyond comprehension, so it is very hard to deal with a disease on its own playing field, simply because in order to stop it we have to know entirely what is going on, and that takes time, a lot of time.

Given enough time and focus, like if finding a cure became a national effort, it can be done. But since everyone thinks the rainbow of terror alerts is more pressing and important, then it will hit backburner and the disease still is spreading. HIV will probably never be fully eradicated, but in the future it can at least become controlled and not as potent as it is now. The fault for it is not that science can't find a cure, it is in politics and people not giving a shit.

[makaveli121212]

everyone knows how HIV spreads...thats like third grade...people are living with aids longer, but is that a good thing...its a valid question, they can continue to spread the disease...it raises a huge moral issue...millions of people are worknig on aids/hiv...how many esteemed scientists do you think it will take...it has little to do with the man power...hiv mutates faster than any other virus, each one is practically its own strand (dont know if thats really opinion or fact)

[Specforces]

Recent studies have shown that some Africans are developing immunities to the disease, don't ask me where I got it, I saw it briefly on CNN.

[makaveli121212]

i wonder how they tested that...sounds fishy to me...

[sponge008]

karposi sarcoma is very bad...looking back at my last post i realized i said CD4s make CD8s and B cells...well, i wasnt thinking, CD4s activate the B cells into plasma cells and the CD8s into Killer T cells...that my fault...oh and the CD4s do this via interleukin II

Interleukin 2 is an antiviral medication!!! :x

[makaveli121212]

i dont know about that...but it certainly is a chemical released by helper t cells that turn the cytotoxic t cells into killer t cells...i can see it being an antiviral medication, because it could be an artificial way of stimulating that change in cd8 cells...and the cd8s, when killer ts definatley try to fight off viruses...i never thought of that before, but that makes sense

[COBOL]

well for 1 there will be segregation again because everyone will favor the super humans over the organic humans like white over black or whatever.

[MyNameIsJoeJoeDawg]

if we have a race of super humans, then they'll all be the same and they won't be so super anymore. You know, like the movie Charly

[COBOL]

Watch GATTACA it's a good movie about this subject

[Anonymous]

Bio engineering... heh

ILLUSION OF GAIA:
In a civilization so ancient that nothing of it remains today, the first great flowering of human knowledge produced remarkable breakthroughs in the sciences of biology and genetics. These nameless ancients used their knowledge to create new forms of plants and animals that would make life better on earth. Inevitably, some people twisted the science and modeled violent beasts of war with hideous intelligence. The monsters terrorized the people and the civilization began to crumble. In the end, two forces fought over the earth, the Knights of Light and Darkness. The ultimate weapon used in that war was a comet that blazed with radiation and a strange light. The coming of the comet destroyed that race and mutated many people and animals into evil forms, which then hid in the deepest recesses of the world. In the ages that followed, from the time of the Egyptians and Babylonians to the Incas, the comet continued to return every 800 years. And with the return of this Chaos Comet came times of darkness, destruction and disease. Fragmented legends of the comet's effects and clues about its origin were passed down to the civilizations that followed. But as those nations rose then fell and time turned their works to dust, only a few treasures remained hidden in the most ancient ruins of the world. Our story begins in the age of exploration, a time of great discoveries when brave explorers drew back the dark shrouds of fable and shed light on the ancient wonders. In that time, a party of adventurers from the seaside town of South Cape set off to unlock one of the greatest mysteries--the legendary Tower of Babel. Olman, the leader, led his fellow townsmen and even his son, Will, into the tower. But then something happened and the expedition was lost without a trace...except for one. Unfortunately, young Will couldn't remember what had happened, how he had been saved, or even how he managed to return home after his ordeal. Even stranger was the fact that Will now possessed the power to move objects through thought alone. The Illusion of Gaia follows Will and his companions as they seek the answers to the lost expedition. As they begin their journey, the don't suspect that it will eventually lead them around the globe or that the fate of the planet lies in their inexperienced hands. They'll have to learn and grow and mold their characters into the stuff of heroes as they face the monsters created by the comet in past ages. Not all of the friends complete the journey. Some may turn aside to discover new destinies. And along the way, help may arrive from un-expected quarters--from Gaia, the spirit of the earth, and Freedan, a powerful knight, and from the mysterious Shadow. But Will must go the entire distance, fighting every battle and returning to the Tower of Babel where he must attempt to end the plague of the comet and to find out what happened to his father. And where Will goes, you go as well. (Cheesy video game music comes to a halt)

Like robots, unfortunately, humans can become a hybrid, ones that don't know right from wrong, and they do what they are told. We may become slaves to ourselves.

Genetic engineering and brainwashing are immoral - no matter what one thinks of it. They may be ignorant, but that's about as far as their argument should go. Everything else is a vain attempt to justify what one is doing to human life.

Then again, if one doesn't care, and if they are their own boss, they can do whatever they like, right?
Do you affect truth, or does truth affect you?

Truth is like the Granite slab in Yosemite...you throw yourself against it, but...that doesn't change where the granite stands...and you may break a few bones.