Real musicians

[Drummer4life13]

:) 8-) :-D Okay, me and my friend were talking about music and different musicians through our era. I mentioned the drummer from Avenged Sevenfold and how he was such a great musician, and my friend said "Drummers aren't musicians."
Well, I disagree. I think that if you make music, you should be considered a musician. What do you think? Do you think drummers should be considered musicians, or do you agree with my friend?

[ToshX]

Well, they're considered musicians, but I think it doesn't look terribly hard to hit something with a stick at the right time :/

So, what else is there to discuss?

[Drummer4life13]

R u kidding?!?
Its hard to get the right rythem down and to learn how to use your foot in beat with your hands.

[ape0]

I play guitar and I played drums once and it's pretty easy to drum a simple beat, but when you get to really complicated stuff, that's when it's hard.

[Matrixdude]

Well I am a drummer myself and I have to agree with you that drummers are in fact musicians.

They create MUSIC using the most common, most heard of (most likely) instrument. I myself actually write songs and notes for the drums which is basically what a true musician does. I don't think there's really a question about it that drummers are musicians. I don't see why anyone would say we aren't but I guess some people who don't play drums, such as your friend, think of it as basically a tempo and beat keeper (which, basically we are) but it's so much more that once you sit on the throne and begin to actually play a song.

So yeah, I guess my point is that we, as drummers, ARE musicians, let it be set, snare, bass, or any other marching band or maybe even household drumming instruments such as buckets or whatever you play to drum with, no matter what, you are a musician.

[Verruckter]

What you need to know is that in any band with a drum, it's the musicians that follow the drums and not the opposite. This means drums are the base of every type of modern music. Without drums, it sounds empty. Ever tried to listen to Metal, Rock, Hip Hop, Pop or even Jazz and Blues without drums? Doesn't quite sound the same, doesn't it? The drums is not there to complete the music, it's there to be the foundations.

Therefor, drums is an instrument.

Well, they're considered musicians, but I think it doesn't look terribly hard to hit something with a stick at the right time :/

So, what else is there to discuss?

It's not really hard to strike power chords either or to sing in falsetto, yet most people do it and it's called music, and runs on MTV.

[Relambrien]

The main purpose of drums are to support the other instruments to make the song sound "complete," with a beat and other background sounds. Drums by themselves don't really make a type of music most people would like to listen to, but things like guitars by themselves often do. This is why some people have difficulty accepting drummers as musicians.

Think of drums as the support class from your favorite video game; not that popular by themselves, but they complete a team and make it unstoppable.

[csoup1414]

well, it depends really
my middle school music teacher always hated it when the drummers didnt really PLAY anything, they just randomly hit the drum
now, since im in a high school band that is really good, the instructor says the drummers are playing music
it also depends on the drums...like the quads have different tones (our quad player actually plays "mary had a little lamb" and the mario theme song on them) and then the base drums can have different tones to them (the play the songs on that too)
well, if you're just randomly banging (non perverted) then its not really music unless it has a beat that you can move to...then i say its music

[devonin]

Well, step one: This isn't a CT topic and should probably go to Chit-chat

Step two: Terms like that are best interpreted as regards whether it is your profession. I'd define a musician as "Someone who makes their living performing music"

I play all kinds of musical instruments, some of them quite well, but I am a student, not a musician, because I don't make my living at it.

If you try to apply it more generally than that you run into all the problems of subjectivity.

What is an artist? Someone who makes art? Someone who makes -good- art? How can you possibly define "good" and "bad" creative expression? Is a musician anyone who can make any noise come out of an instrument? Do they have to have skill? How much skill? How do you gauge it?

As far as I'm concerned, outside the bounds of "People who make a living at music" the only possible way to define it more generally is "Anybody who says they are"

[Flesh Field]

Well, they are obviously musicians seeing they help the band create music. Also for all you dumb dumbs out there drummers are one of the most important members of a band, for if a guitarist makes a mistake - the drummer can cover for him. Also it takes lots of dexterity and a good rhythm to play the drums.

Two of the best drummers in the world are John Bonham from Led Zeppelin and Chirs Adler from Lamb of God.

P.S. Avenged Sevenfold sucks, they're emo/goth whiny sucky peices of... -mumbles on for 2 minutes about how much they suck-

[devonin]

As long as you understand how purely subjective those terms are. There's no such thing as a "Best" at -anything- except insofar as they match the particular subjective qualities you are looking for. My list of "best" drummers is nowhere near the same as yours, if simply due to the lack of Gene Krupa on it.

[slipstrike0159]

First off, this shouldnt be in CT or Chit Chat, it should be in media... WHERE MUSIC IS DISCUSSED (among other things).

Now that thats out of the way, lets jump right into this.

Anyone who think that drums in of themselves arent an instrument that requires an educated musician is either ignorant or just have no clue and are saying random words. If you have ever heard a GOOD drumline, then you will notice within the first couple measures that with JUST drums many different musical terms are put into effect.

Also, to play the complicated stuff on the drums you need just as talented of a musician if not a MORE talented musician to perform it with decent accuracy. I really dont think many people understand just how hard rythms can get and do get because they play instruments that deal with many other musicality factors. With the drums a lot of things are stripped away so they can focus specifically on the rythm and beats which makes it extremely difficult most times.

As a side note, most bands (at least with the mainstream ones) only use their drummers as a beat keeper and to give a good rythm foundation and not much more.

[Dragula219]

Two of the best drummers in the world are John Bonham from Led Zeppelin and Chirs Adler from Lamb of God.

Rofl.

[Relambrien]

Rofl.

I might as well jump on you before Devonin or someone does. Regardless of whether or not this thread belongs in CT, the fact remains that currently it is, so please don't post unless you have something to add to the discussion.

[Dragula219]

Ok, I'll play by the rules. And on this topic I'll be damned if I'm not close minded in my opinion.

If you don't think percussionists are musicians, you are musically retarded. Music most likely started with ONLY percussion, and percussion is the basis of music because it creates the tempo. Drummers are the true leaders of bands, because everything revolves around the percussion (point being: If the drummer ****s up, most of the time the whole band will.)"BUT DRAGULA! ACOUSTIC MUSIC DOESN'T HAVE PERCUSSION!!!!" Yeah, and that's why good acoustic artists use their strumming pattern to create a type of percussion.

[jewpinthethird]

I think it doesn't look terribly hard to hit something with a stick at the right time :/

Try playing a drum set sometime. Moving four limbs independently of each other while keeping the tempo and rhythm ain't no easy task.

Dummer4life, your friend is an idiot. Straight up. Seriously, that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.

[EricChiptune]

Drummers are clearly musicians.

What else is there to it?

Some drummers are better than others...

The debate gets cloudy when you move to electronic music... is a drum programmer a musician or a programmer?

He's still stringing together drum patterns...

Anyone who makes music in my view is a musician.
If a drummer isn't a musician, what is he?

[purebloodtexan]

Moving on from the rock bands, think about drumlines and pit percussion as well. They have to remember their marching pattern, our own music, their warm-ups, and some crowdpleasers as well. It takes a hell of a lot to remember stuff of that nature.

Also, as some of y'all should know, pit percussion also has members of the band that play double-reeded instruments, which aren't allowed on the marching field. They have to learn, play and memorize all their music on a new instrument before the band even steps onto the field.

edit: Another situation is when I was picking instruments for band before middle school. I chose percussion as my second choice, and we did two tests. The first test was playing the right "left right" patterns on a snare drum. Easy enough. Then, he did a test to see if I was tone deaf. I couldn't pick up notes as quickly as he wanted me to, so he advised that I stick with the brass instruments.

[mblavis7]

any noise worth listening to can be music.

whatevers pleasing to your ears, theres music.

go in the forest at night. sit down. and listen to the music.

there should never be any debate on what is or is not music, or what instruments create music.

if drums make noise, and someone in the world likes the noise, then thats music to them.

if you like to scrape forks on the ground, then theres your music.

and i think computers can be musicians too. why couldn't they?

maybe im too much of a hippie.

makes sense to me.

[EricChiptune]

I use my laptop and gameboys to make my stuff. Music is an artform, a organised (or even unorganised in some cases) form of entertainment, it is not defined by being played on certain instruments.
Too many elitist people try and say that stuff is or isn't music, just because it's not what they like etc... It's stupid.

[devonin]

Too many elitist people try and say that stuff is or isn't music, just because it's not what they like etc And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

[Lucifericrucifix]

I'm a drummer myself and I'd like to believe we are considered musicians. We can learn and apply musical theory to what is really the same extent as any other musician. You can actually place tones for different notes and use similar scales (A piccolo snare and a deep one we'll say) could be considered on different scales, assuming the rest of the drums represent a similar tonality. Hypothetically you could voice lead and all of that..But, it's so uncommon that anyone would go to that extent even in a symphony when all of that can be written in much more simplistic terms for percussion (Unless of course it's something much more elaborate than typical drums, I.E Xylophone like instrument or something.) Regardless, Berklee has a rather intuitive percussion program so just saying that much, I'd say it's safe to assume they are musicians. Essentially, they carry a similar role that a bass player might or any backing rhythm player would, but that is different for each genre of music.

Also, on a side note. No, Avenged Sevenfold does not have an amazing musician as much as they just have one who is skilled in some simple finger tapping, I don't believe their music escapes 4/4 timing as is..Not to completely discredit him work though.

And..Yet again. Speaking in more simplistic terms, drummers probably do the most work out of anyone in a band (assuming the context is a band.) They aren't simply just musicians, it becomes a physical endurance exercise the more intense it becomes. Guitarists might have some complicated things as well sure, but when it comes to drums, you can come up with odd phrasings as a guitarist can but once you break the 220 BPM barrier and things like that, it's far more than just musicianship.

Flesh Field, Chris Adler has an interesting play style, but certainly not one of the best by any means. Dennis Chambers, Dave Wecykl, Buddy Rich, those are incredible drummers. I do appreciate Chris Adlers work, but I find drummers in a similar genre (namely, Mathias Modin, George Kollias, Flo Mounier, and Dennis Röndum) to show much more ability.
..Wasn't aware this was a "Critical Thinking" topic, though it could spawn something interesting.

[jewpinthethird]

And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

[devonin]

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

You are a sound engineer by trade. If you also consider yourself to make music, then you are. I said earlier that the -only- non-subjective way you could possibly define "A musician" is someone who earns a living performing what they identify as music. It is similar to the definition of Amateur and Professional as applied to things like sports. Anyone can make music, only people who do so for a living are "musicians"

Mind you, that's just the non-subjective way to define it. If subjectivity rules the day for you (heh) then really, a musician is anyone who can convince someone else that they are a musician. And Jewpin, I've heard your stuff, you are a musician.


Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience. Well, my addition to that is "how -everything- is percieved is largely (if not wholly) influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience." not just the arts. We tend to just see it as more of a bad thing when it comes to creative expression we like and others don't.

[hayatewillown]

I'm a drummer of two bands. If I provide the beat, then I call it music.

I'm a musician with the trumpet anyways.

[u84]

Drummers are definitely real musicians. Here is a link to a musician who has multiple CDs out. All of them sound amazing and there is a sample for them here:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/tonyvacca1

Most of his stuff is only by him. All the drumming instruments, including the xylophone, are done by him. Even that little whistle in the background of some of them. The singing is also him.

[Sir_Thomas]

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

[hayatewillown]

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

Yeah I think music theory really plays a big role. Especially with a synthesizer. You can hear the beats string in together and even make some great noise.

Still, drummers are musicians, because they have a rhythm and make noise. That noise is usually sonorous ( sounds good I think that is what that means ) because it provides the beat.

I don't know.

[Wlfwnd91]

I believe a musician is anyone who creates their own music with heart in it. Now, whether someone puts heart in their music is difficult to tell. I believe I can hear when someone has passion and when someone doesn't, but there's no way to tell for sure.

If you can play fast and keep an amazing beat, but you're just playing what's written for you to play, then I don't believe you're a musician. If you write your own music from your soul then I beleive you are. I've heard percussion bands that have created worlds of sound, so I know it can be done. There are some drummers who aren't musicians (in my definition of the word) and some drummers who are. There are also guitarists, bassists, vocalists, brass and woodwind players as well who aren't musicians, even if they've been playing 10 years. And I know people who have played 10 months and are greater musicians.

This is all in my definition of the word, and it's all subjective, as Devonin is saying. As for what's art and what isn't, that's something that's defined by the person viewing it and ONLY them. I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is.

[devonin]

I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is. It is, though, interesting to note some of the iconic examples of artforms that virtually everyone in a culture will identify as being such, even if they don't particularly like it.

The Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 4th and 9th symphonies, etc etc. They've just somehow entered the collective consciousness as being -art- and in such cases, being -good- art even though we all freely admit how subjective such things are.

[Wlfwnd91]

It is, though, interesting to note some of the iconic examples of artforms that virtually everyone in a culture will identify as being such, even if they don't particularly like it.

The Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 4th and 9th symphonies, etc etc. They've just somehow entered the collective consciousness as being -art- and in such cases, being -good- art even though we all freely admit how subjective such things are.

But, what makes these things so accepted as art? Is it possible that it's just that they were accepted as art by the mainstream for so many years so it's just become typical to believe it to be art? Or is there something that just seems to make sense? Something in all those works of art that everyone just identifies as artistic?

[tsugomaru]

If we were to take this logically, real musicians would be the ones who measure out each and every wavelength and frequency and compose a combination of these wavelengths and frequencies into a piece that is most pleasing to the ear. However, the basis of this is all opinion and the result is also, all opinion. So we can rule logic out in this discussion.

Real musicians are those who make music. It doesn't matter whether the music is original, from the heart, or just plain noise, as long as there's someone to enjoy it, it'll be music.

~Tsugomaru

[jewpinthethird]

With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Actually, I'd say that great thing about tracking is that you can experiment with various sounds and arrangements at a whim.

A majority of them time, I go into making a song with no preconceived idea. A lot of my inspiration comes from working with various synthesizers and effects to make a sound. Recently, I've gotten into using samples, many of them my own. I'm trying use more acoustic instruments in my songs. I also like using the cut-up technique to rearrange songs. But for the most part, it's pure electronic music, probably incapable being reproduced by conventional instruments. I mean, if you asked me to play one of my songs on a keyboard...i'd just laugh at you (actually, there are a few that I've composed on my synthesizer, but rarely more than a riff).

[cammy_g1]

A drummer is most definitely a musician, anybody that does not think so is most obviously blind to the fact that drummers do solos, and they sound amazing. I mean if a person can make rhythmic sounds from hitting drums then dont you think they should be worthy of being a musician, i mean phil collins is known as a musician and he just makes noise.

[Killler_bunny]

Music is, really when you think about it, just noise. If you can make noise, while making it sound good (good being anything from a cute riff to a steady beat, and everything in between), you are a musician of sorts. It's really easy to go around hitting a drum or strum a few strings and call yourself a musician, the thing is, if you're not good, no one will listen to you... So, what it all comes down to, is yeah, a drummer is a musician, just as much as a guitarist is. (or any other instrument)

[cammy_g1]

Music is just noise if that is the way you think about it, but i think music is a reflection of soul and the life that you lead. A real musician, in my opinion, as no answer is the correct one, is a person in which believes in their music and has a passion for it, it just flows through them like blood. A person that just does it for the money is not a musician in my eyes.

[Bamboozler]

I just recently finished/quit our school band (played the clarinet for some years). I can say without a doubt in my mind that drummers are musicians, as they play a key role in supporting just about ANY song, even in a classical instrument band such as my schools.

To put it into perspective, imagine a platoon of well built, battle ready, honor driven marines, ready to go out and fight for the justice and glory of their civilization (Your lead singer, guitarists, and perhaps keyboard). Now send them into combat without guns. This essentially the same thing as a band without drums.

Of course, there are a few, rare exceptions to this analogy, such as guitar soloists and a select few bands. but, in reality, well over half of today's modern bands have a drummer in them, and boy, do they make a difference.

[RB_IcePh0enix]

It's really not an opinion if you think about it. A musician is obvious someone who makes music and drums are music, whether it's a hard or easy song. It's like discussing if electronica DJ's are musicians or not. Even though it's electronic music, it's still music. End of story.

[RB_Dreamscanner]

music is music
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[Moogle-master]

I beleive a real musician would see the beauty in all types of music, not just their own preferred music. Also having the natural gift to be able to pick up any instrument and to be able to play it without instruction.

If you play an instrument, no matter what it is. You are a musician. You have to know some theory behind the music to be a good musician and to able to understand the movement within a peice.

Oh, if that made any sense. ;_;

[rules_the_school]

A real musician is a person who play's music just for the sake of music, not for money or fame, just so they can hear the sound. Or a musician who play's music to get real messages through, like an exact opposite of 50 cent (no disses, just example)who doesn't talk about sex, drugs and being a gangsta' but instead about how corrupt politic's is, how unfair being black can be, or how the gap between rich white kids (Sorry but it's mostly them..) and poverty ridden asians and african's is growing. So to me, a real musician is someone who is not afraid to sing what they feel, instead of something that sell's.

[A2_Sauce]

R u kidding?!?
Its hard to get the right rythem down and to learn how to use your foot in beat with your hands.

lmao, try playing the cello you donk

[V3T_ddrultramix3]

[QUOTE=Flesh Field;1559296]

Two of the best drummers in the world are John Bonham from Led Zeppelin and Chirs Adler from Lamb of God.

QUOTE]

You forgot *forgets name* from Rush.

[devonin]

Neil Peart. And yes, he's incredible, but I think any discussion of drummers is incomplete without Gene Krupa (Who I feel is arguably the greatest drummer who has ever existed)

[hayatewillown]

Try playing a drum set sometime. Moving four limbs independently of each other while keeping the tempo and rhythm ain't no easy task.

Very true.

[purebloodtexan]

The members of Stomp - original and new - are incredible drummers, regardless of the fact that they're using every day items to make music.

[soulofcerberus]

IMO drummers are musicians... but only if they're good enough. Just playing an instrument doesn't qualify you as a musician. You have to be dedicated and have some ability to actually be considered a musician. Anyone can sit down at a drum and bang away, but it takes time and effort to actually be able to play the drums. That being said, a lot of people who claim they "play" the drums don't really.

P.S. Harp is harder than drumz and other muzical inztrumentz

[Master_of_the_Faster]

To me, a musician is a person who can recieve any type of fame from others besides yourself and those people who would say that you are a good musician and lie. Basically, if you can convince a random person who doesn't know you at all or even someone who dislikes you to love your music, I would say that you are good enough to atleast be a musician. Of course, that is to just become a musician, but that doesn't mean that you are exactly a great musician or one of the best musicians unless you raise in ranks with your abilities and could convince many large audiences of people that you are talented. Money doesn't exactly make you a musician, but if you get incredibly rich from music, it may be a sign that lots of people really think you're talented and money drives musicians to have the want/need to become even better.

[Wlfwnd91]

To me, a musician is a person who can recieve any type of fame from others besides yourself and those people who would say that you are a good musician and lie. Basically, if you can convince a random person who doesn't know you at all or even someone who dislikes you to love your music, I would say that you are good enough to atleast be a musician. Of course, that is to just become a musician, but that doesn't mean that you are exactly a great musician or one of the best musicians unless you raise in ranks with your abilities and could convince many large audiences of people that you are talented. Money doesn't exactly make you a musician, but if you get incredibly rich from music, it may be a sign that lots of people really think you're talented and money drives musicians to have the want/need to become even better.

Yea, we all know how incredible Fallout Boy is. Great musicians right there.

[lord_carbo]

Try playing a drum set sometime. Moving four limbs independently of each other while keeping the tempo and rhythm ain't no easy task.

Dummer4life, your friend is an idiot. Straight up. Seriously, that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.
I bet he also said something like, "electronic music isn't music."

[metalliram]

Drums by themselves don't really make a type of music most people would like to listen to, but things like guitars by themselves often do. This is why some people have difficulty accepting drummers as musicians.

Obviously you have never heard military or African drumming. Both of those types of drumming can be quite enjoyable to listen to when performed by talented percussionists. I agree that not everyone would enjoy that type of music, but most people I know don't like jazz... does that mean that jazz should have difficulty being accepted as a type of music?

I think that drummers would have a harder time being accepted as musicians here only because they are rarely seen outside their role as the supporter, or tempo-setter (roles I know from experience are highly valuable) and capable of standing alone. If you were to travel to other countries where drummers are more often seen playing alone, then you would probably have a hard time finding someone who DIDN'T think they were musicians.

Also, I believe drums were some of the earliest instruments to be played, but I could be wrong.

[soulofcerberus]

most guitar players suck major ass

[Aznvazn]

I think it all depends on preference, feeling, and emotion.

I mean, you can express yourself if you are a guitarist, or if you prefer to play an classical instrument, like me :p

Some people may like guitars over violins.

There isn't really a section of "real" musicians; anyone who plays an instrument and expresses themselves can be considered a "real musician," unless you're one of those people who plays random music and has no feeling in the notes your play, or are just randomly playing stuff for fame. XD

[purebloodtexan]

I think it all depends on preference, feeling, and emotion.

I mean, you can express yourself if you are a guitarist, or if you prefer to play an classical instrument, like me :p

Some people may like guitars over violins.

There isn't really a section of "real" musicians; anyone who plays an instrument and expresses themselves can be considered a "real musician," unless you're one of those people who plays random music and has no feeling in the notes your play, or are just randomly playing stuff for fame. XD

My apologies, but I fail to see how random music and (for lack of a better word) "fame" tie in together.

[Relambrien]

Obviously you have never heard military or African drumming. Both of those types of drumming can be quite enjoyable to listen to when performed by talented percussionists. I agree that not everyone would enjoy that type of music, but most people I know don't like jazz... does that mean that jazz should have difficulty being accepted as a type of music?

I think that drummers would have a harder time being accepted as musicians here only because they are rarely seen outside their role as the supporter, or tempo-setter (roles I know from experience are highly valuable) and capable of standing alone. If you were to travel to other countries where drummers are more often seen playing alone, then you would probably have a hard time finding someone who DIDN'T think they were musicians.

Also, I believe drums were some of the earliest instruments to be played, but I could be wrong.

Jazz is widely accepted as a type of music because there was a time when it was a favorite among people.

On a side note, I am in a military education program, so I have heard military drumming quite extensively. Also, I was regrettably forced to endure the torture that is African drumming by a teacher of mine, who was very zealous about African culture and heritage. The entire month of February was spent listening to African music, reading African stories, and studying African authors. I despised the music; it was horrible.

But honestly, would you really want to listen to military drumming or African drumming in your free time? Would you have those on your iPod? Is that music you would want to listen to over other types of music equally available? The vast majority of people would say no. Thus, the vast majority is less likely to consider a drummer a musician (elaborated below). Also, there was never a point in American history where drums by themselves were enjoyed by the masses. Folk and classical music gave way to big band, swing, etc.

When I say people are less likely to consider a drummer a musician, I mean that if you ask a person "Which of the following fits your definition of "musician" better? Guitarist or drummer?" they will say a guitarist. The guitarist then becomes the standard, and since a drummer is "less" than a guitarist (in terms of the person's definition), they do not as readily qualify for the title "musician."

However, people like to listen to music that only has one, say, guitar. If you turn on the radio to a station that plays a variety of music, you'll often hear at least one song that's sung by one person and an acoustic guitar. Nothing else. This is why guitarists are more widely accepted as musicians than drummers; drums can't create an appealing type of music by themselves.

This is because their pitch variety is severely limited compared to other instruments. The piano has all its keys and the foot pedals, string instruments have a nearly infinite number of pitches (due to the way pitch change on string instruments works), instruments like the flute have many variable pitches based on the position(s) of the fingers, etc. But the drums are limited, pitch-wise, to each individual drum and the cymbals available. The patterns and combinations created with them allow for great diversity, but the number of actual pitches is severely limited when compared to other mainstream instruments. While it can create a lot of combinations of pitches, the other instruments can create a lot MORE pitches, allowing for a more diverse melody. With the drums, rhythm is all you really have: each individual drum or cymbal being hit at a certain point.

[dascookieman]

Of course drummers are musicians. Almost ALL music has drums, why? Because they really do add that much to the music. It's an instrument like any other and if you use it to create music you are of course a musician.

[Artic_counter]

Of course Drummers are musicians! We can only call someone a musician when he or she create music. Example: I'm a musician 'cause I work with some stream lines and a lot of others things to make Techno song. You don't have to play an instrument to be a musician. By the way, I've once heard a song that the only instrument in it was the Drum.

[maxymoo]

Musician : a composer, conductor, or performer of music

If you consider a drum solo music, then he is considered a musician. This is a point of view argument and therefore should not be in critical thinking seeing as that many opinions are biased.

[dudelogan14]

R u kidding?!?
Its hard to get the right rythem down and to learn how to use your foot in beat with your hands.

you are obviously a bad drummer pretending to be a good one.

a good musician?
Claudio Sanchez.

<3.

[chunky_cheese]

tempo and beat keeper

Tempo + Beat = Stepfile

Drummers are Musicians.

[Dragula219]

Jazz is widely accepted as a type of music because there was a time when it was a favorite among people.

What the hell does "a favorite among people" mean? You mean it's a favorite among people who like Jazz? Because I assure you, there was no time where jazz music was everyones favorite.

If by that you meant what was popular, than your argument is illogical anyway. I assure you African drumming was a lot more popular for a lot longer in Africa than Jazz ever even got close to in America.

On a side note, I am in a military education program, so I have heard military drumming quite extensively. Also, I was regrettably forced to endure the torture that is African drumming by teacher of mine, who was very zealous about African culture and heritage. The entire month of February was spent listening to African music, reading African stories, and studying African authors. I despised the music; it was horrible.

Good thing to know that since you have heard both kinds of music that your musical opinion is now fact. ("OLOLOL GUYS I DESPISE THIS MUSIC LOLOLO IT'S HORRRRRRIBLE NOW, OK?!?!?! LOLOLOL)

But honestly, would you really want to listen to military drumming or African drumming in your free time? Would you have those on your iPod? Is that music you would want to listen to over other types of music equally available? The vast majority of people would say no.

Unfortunately, You're probably right. But great part about it is, just because the "Vast majority" doesn't listen to african drumming does not make it NOT music. The "Vast majority" of people don't listen Crack Rock Steady or Noisecore, but both are still considered music.

Thus, the vast majority is less likely to consider a drummer a musician (elaborated below). Also, there was never a point in American history where drums by themselves were enjoyed by the masses. Folk and classical music gave way to big band, swing, etc.

I suggest you not post after this, as to not embarrass yourself anymore. Ever heard of a steel drum? Didn't think so.

Also see the bold for this statement: "AMERICA ARES THE ONLY ONES THE EVAR MADE MUSIC EVAR!!!"

When I say people are less likely to consider a drummer a musician, I mean that if you ask a person "Which of the following fits your definition of "musician" better? Guitarist or drummer?" they will say a guitarist. The guitarist then becomes the standard, and since a drummer is "less" than a guitarist (in terms of the person's definition), they do not as readily qualify for the title "musician."

I don't know a single person who wouldn't say, "They both fit equally." But then again, I don't usually hang around musically retarded people. Might want to look into that.

Start with a mirror.

However, people like to listen to music that only has one, say, guitar. If you turn on the radio to a station that plays a variety of music, you'll often hear at least one song that's sung by one person and an acoustic guitar. Nothing else. This is why guitarists are more widely accepted as musicians than drummers; drums can't create an appealing type of music by themselves.

APPEALING IS A UNIVERSAL TERM NOW!

Oh.

This is because their pitch variety is severely limited compared to other instruments. The piano has all its keys and the foot pedals, string instruments have a nearly infinite number of pitches (due to the way pitch change on string instruments works), instruments like the flute have many variable pitches based on the position(s) of the fingers, etc. But the drums are limited, pitch-wise, to each individual drum and the cymbals available. The patterns and combinations created with them allow for great diversity, but the number of actual pitches is severely limited when compared to other mainstream instruments. While it can create a lot of combinations of pitches, the other instruments can create a lot MORE pitches, allowing for a more diverse melody. With the drums, rhythm is all you really have: each individual drum or cymbal being hit at a certain point.

Step 1: www.google.com
Step 2: Type in "Steel Drum" (or any of the other hundreds of percussion instruments that produce many different notes).
Step 3: Read.
Step 4: STFU.

You are so ****ing ignorant it's ridiculous. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

[devonin]

And so flaming him bit by bit was a better solution?

How is his subjective definition any less valid than your subjective definition? Both are subjective opinions.

I mean, he falls afoul of a bit of the Argumentum Ad Populum fallacy, for which I asses him -5 points, but -In general- he is speaking of personal preferences, and personal opinions here, which seeing as music so WHOLLY subjective, he's allowed to do, and you're allowed to disagree, but you don't have to do so quite so vehemantly and with so many ad hominem attacks.

[Relambrien]

(cut out for space)

Sorry for the apparent implication that I thought drummers aren't musicians. I'm merely trying to explain -why- some people would be less inclined to believe that a drummer is a musician than people who play other instruments.

I believe I stated in my first post in this thread my belief that drummers -are- in fact musicians, and from that point on I've been trying to show what might cause people to believe otherwise.

Though, now that I've reviewed the thread, it appears I never really did make my position clear. Allow me to do that now.

I believe that drummers are musicians. They create, or help to create, music. Therefore, they are musicians by definition. However, from my experiences, I am able to empathize with those who would believe that drummers are not musicians, and have been trying to show the thought patterns of those with that belief. Call me a devil's advocate if you will.

As such, I bear no ill will for your attacks, as I completely agree with you that drummers are in fact musicians.

My general points thus far have been:

1) American people are less inclined to believe that drummers alone are musicians, as opposed to those who play other instruments alone.
2) Mainstream drums (what someone thinks of when you say "drum") are limited in their pitch variety in comparison to other instruments (keyword: in comparison), which could possibly contribute to the above statement.
3) In response to the argument about jazz, I stated (or meant to, perhaps it didn't come across clearly) that at one point, jazz was a very popular style of music in America. Thus, American people are likely to consider jazz music. However, American history has not shown a time when solo drumming has been very popular, possibly contributing to statement #1.

I think that about covers everything for my general stance, now to respond to your points.

What the hell does "a favorite among people" mean? You mean it's a favorite among people who like Jazz? Because I assure you, there was no time where jazz music was everyones favorite.

If by that you meant what was popular, than your argument is illogical anyway. I assure you African drumming was a lot more popular for a lot longer in Africa than Jazz ever even got close to in America.


You misunderstood me. I was referring to America the whole time, because that was the apparent context to which the OP referred. Due to the incredibly different musical tastes around the world, I had to choose a specific culture or region and act based on that region, or else all I could say would be "Musical taste varies so much, almost anything is a musician somewhere." I chose America. But you're right, I meant "what was popular," I don't know why I wrote "a favorite among people."


Good thing to know that since you have heard both kinds of music that your musical opinion is now fact. ("OLOLOL GUYS I DESPISE THIS MUSIC LOLOLO IT'S HORRRRRRIBLE NOW, OK?!?!?! LOLOLOL)


How did that part of my post imply that I was trying to state my opinion as fact? I most certainly wasn't.


Unfortunately, You're probably right. But great part about it is, just because the "Vast majority" doesn't listen to african drumming does not make it NOT music. The "Vast majority" of people don't listen Crack Rock Steady or Noisecore, but both are still considered music.


Ask a person who hates rap if it's music, and they'll say "no." That's what I'm trying to get at here. People who don't like a genre are less likely to consider that genre a part of the overall subject. (Calm down, remember, I'm just trying to explain the thought process for people who don't consider drummers musicians)


I suggest you not post after this, as to not embarrass yourself anymore. Ever heard of a steel drum? Didn't think so.

Also see the bold for this statement: "AMERICA ARES THE ONLY ONES THE EVAR MADE MUSIC EVAR!!!"


I don't know why, but I fail to see how a steel drum is relevant to that particular part of my post. So I can't respond to that. And once again, I established the context as American, simply because there's nothing to argue if you try to use the entire world.


I don't know a single person who wouldn't say, "They both fit equally." But then again, I don't usually hang around musically retarded people. Might want to look into that.
Start with a mirror.


Obviously, when you ask someone that, they're going to say "They both fit equally" after a bit of thought. But their first impulse, before any thought? I would expect it to lean towards the guitarist. That's what I was trying to say.

Also, I won't say anything about that particular attack (as I stated above, I can understand your feelings and don't blame you for it), but as a forewarning, anything more like that and you'll have difficulty in CT. Attacks like that are not exactly encouraged here.


Oh.


Once again, a matter of opinion which I thought was obvious. Maybe it wasn't.


Step 1: www.google.com
Step 2: Type in "Steel Drum" (or any of the other hundreds of percussion instruments that produce many different notes).
Step 3: Read.
Step 4: STFU.


Look at this quote from the Wikipedia article on the "steelpan," the proper name for "steel drum."


It may have almost all of the "skirt" (the cylindrical part of the oil drum) cut off and around 30 soprano-range notes. It may use the entire drum with only 3 bass notes per pan, in which case one person may play 6 such pans.


Around 30 soprano-range notes? String instruments, due to the way the sound is formed, have an infinite range of notes. Notice what I said about limited in comparison to other instruments. That's not to say that drums have a shortage of available pitches; only that there are many fewer that you can play on drums than on a string instrument.

Oh, and this made me laugh:


The steel drum is correctly called a steelpan or pan as it falls into the Idiophone family of instruments, and is not technically regarded as a drum or Membranophone.

So not only did you get the name wrong, but it's not even technically a drum? I find that somewhat ironic.