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TheWired724
02-23-2007, 05:00 PM
I've noticed religious threads are discouraged around here. However i'm very curious about what the consensus is about Islam and violence. I'll do my best to support any claims i make, but first i would like to know what you guys believe.

FoJaR
02-23-2007, 05:02 PM
explain yourself.

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 05:04 PM
explain yourself.

You mean my motive for creating this thread? Or my stance on the subject at hand?

hykinix
02-23-2007, 05:08 PM
Stance on the subject at hand. Motivation is clearly for discussion of the matter, or to hear the public consensus and then debate it with the several documents worth of notes you already have.

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 05:14 PM
Stance on the subject at hand. Motivation is clearly for discussion of the matter, or to hear the public consensus and then debate it with the several documents worth of notes you already have.

Alright. I wanted to read what other people thought first, but whatever. To put it bluntly, i believe Islam inspires terrorism. I believe the people who perpetrated 9/11 were not fanatics, but fundamentalists. I do not derive this view solely from the actions of Muslims, but from Islamic text.

GuidoHunter
02-23-2007, 05:25 PM
Why do so many Muslims disagree with you and proclaim that Islam, as taught by the Koran, is a religion of peace?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

jewpinthethird
02-23-2007, 05:26 PM
Alright. I wanted to read what other people thought first, but whatever. To put it bluntly, i believe Islam inspires terrorism. I believe the people who perpetrated 9/11 were not fanatics, but fundamentalists. I do not derive this view solely from the actions of Muslims, but from Islamic text.

Yeah, but certain Christian fundamentalists groups are terrorists too. Also, are you familiar with the Crusades, where many Muslims were killed in the name of Christianity? Yeah, they haven't quite forgotten about that either. To them, we are nothing but a plague that exploits them...and we are. We have no right to enforce our way of life on them.

XxxBLUNTMANxxX
02-23-2007, 05:27 PM
islam doesn't teach terrorism

Yeah, but certain Christian fundamentalists groups are terrorists too. Also, are you familiar with the Crusades, where many Muslims were killed in the name of Christianity? Yeah, they haven't quite forgotten about that either. To them, we are nothing but a plague that exploits them...and we are. We have no right to enforce our way of life on them.

true say

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 05:38 PM
Yeah, but certain Christian fundamentalists groups are terrorists too. Also, are you familiar with the Crusades, where many Muslims were killed in the name of Christianity? Yeah, they haven't quite forgotten about that either. To them, we are nothing but a plague that exploits them...and we are. We have no right to enforce our way of life on them.


Well i guess this is one way to show your opinion. Bin Laden can justify his acts by correctly quoting Islamic scripture. Those of the Crusades could not. The Catholic church at the time was corrupt- straying from what Christ taught. During the Crusades the Pope promised the Crusaders paradise if they died while fighting the infidel(sound familiar?). This is just one of many instances demonstrating the corruption of the church. Here's another important fact, it had been four centuries sense a sermon was preached in the common language of the people. It would also be another four centuries before the first Bible, Wycliffes, would come to exist. The men who fought were not Christians. To be Christian is to know Christ. They could not have known Him. So, such an argument suggesting Biblical Christianity is not better than Islam is void. Also, it's not like the Muslims only started being after the Crusades. They had gone off conquering Arabia long before.

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 05:43 PM
Why do so many Muslims disagree with you and proclaim that Islam, as taught by the Koran, is a religion of peace?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

Islam, as taught by the Qur'an, is not a religion of peace. Most Muslims, from my experiences, aren't fully aware ofwhat their scriptures say. They most likely go on what their told by local clerics, media, etc.


Crap, this thread isn't going the way i wanted. Ok, i'll deal with all these challenges and what not. But please, i started this to see what the consensus was, not for this to become a big debate.

Maid
02-23-2007, 05:55 PM
Islam is not a detriment for fostering terrorism. In my Opinion Islam as a religion, has flaws like Christianity but it has more of them, especially ones that help with nurturing behavior that leads to terrorism. To lightly put it.

edit: addition. Christianity is an older religion, it had more time to mature and work out some quirks as opposed to Islam which is a relatively new religion and newer things tend to bring more spice.

jewpinthethird
02-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Islam, as taught by the Qur'an, is not a religion of peace. Most Muslims, from my experiences, aren't fully aware ofwhat their scriptures say. They most likely go on what their told by local clerics, media, etc.


Crap, this thread isn't going the way i wanted. Ok, i'll deal with all these challenges and what not. But please, i started this to see what the consensus was, not for this to become a big debate.

The consensus is you're the only one who things Islam encourages terrorism.

If you are going to say something like that, you better have some sound evidence to back it. I am, by no means, an expert on the religion. But from what I have learned, it is as peaceful a religion as Christianity.

ps. Most Christians aren't fully aware of what the Bible says either.

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 08:46 PM
The consensus is you're the only one who things Islam encourages terrorism.

If you are going to say something like that, you better have some sound evidence to back it. I am, by no means, an expert on the religion. But from what I have learned, it is as peaceful a religion as Christianity.


Ok, evidence.....well i already know what the response will be.

I'm sure you guys are familiar with Qur'an 9:5 ''But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.''

Someone here will probably say something to the effect of ''that's taken out of context, only applies to certain war, not today,'' correct? The ninth surah is chronologically the second to the last. Most of this surah was revealed after the Muslims suffered a big defeat from the Byzantines(I think) and before the Muslims conquered Mecca. That would mean they weren't actually at war when this verse came about. ''But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them'' is clearly offensive. Since this verse does not specify as to whom to fight, or when, or where is most be interpreted as an open command.


Let's do another: Qur'an 9:29 ''Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.''

This passage is pretty straight forward. Allah orders Muslims to fight those who 1. reject Allah, 2. Believe not the last day, 3. do not obey Allah and Muhammad, and 4. reject Islam until they pay the Jizyah tax, or otherwise, kill them.



ps. Most Christians aren't fully aware of what the Bible says either.


I don't dispute that. I never said they were.

tkoy
02-23-2007, 08:59 PM
Yeah, but certain Christian fundamentalists groups are terrorists too. Also, are you familiar with the Crusades, where many Muslims were killed in the name of Christianity? Yeah, they haven't quite forgotten about that either. To them, we are nothing but a plague that exploits them...and we are. We have no right to enforce our way of life on them.

thank u!

XxxBLUNTMANxxX
02-23-2007, 09:03 PM
you don't know anythin about the Qur'an, I guarantee u havn't read it an if u had I guarantee u don't know the translation in to english so anythin u say about what the Qur'an teaches is false ur just usin some one elses opinion... check out doctor Z on youtube.... unlike u hes read and studied both the Qur'an and the bible and knows word for word from each...
P.S. Dr. Z tears the bible apart in comparison to the Qur'an and has even challanged some bible experts to a debate but theynever except

TheWired724
02-23-2007, 09:10 PM
you don't know anythin about the Qur'an, I guarantee u havn't read it an if u had I guarantee u don't know the translation in to english so anythin u say about what the Qur'an teaches is false ur just usin some one elses opinion... check out doctor Z on youtube.... unlike u hes read and studied both the Qur'an and the bible and knows word for word from each...
P.S. Dr. Z tears the bible apart in comparison to the Qur'an and has even challanged some bible experts to a debate but theynever except


And i guarantee Dr. Z doesn't know what he's talking about. I have read the Qur'an, but that's not sufficient. The Qur'an is jibberish as it lacks both context and chronology. This is why one also needs the Hadith, the only source that makes the Qur'an understandable. I bet you've never read any of the Hadith accounts of Bukhari or Muslim. What Ishaq's ''Sirat Rasul Allah'' or Tabari's ''Ta'ryik''? These are Islam's earliest sources.

randomdragoon
02-23-2007, 10:58 PM
Scriptures like the Qur'an and the Bible are sufficiently long in that one can get them to say anything they want by interpreting specific passages in the way that they feel like. People can argue all they want about them, but in the end it's just the simple fact that they're way too long for any universally clear message to get through. It would have been nice if the Bible solely consisted of the Commandments and that was it (end of all Bible debates, yay!) but too bad, it's not.

On that note, I have many Muslim friends who are quite peaceful (well, except for one ... but I attribute that not to Islam but to his too many readings of Communist texts).

flashMaster10
02-23-2007, 11:16 PM
ok i didnt read anything about what you guys said because im too busy and about to go to bed but, all i gotta say is that islam does not promote voilence and its the religion of peace. so is christianity and jewism. im a muslim and i would never in my life belive that islam promotes violence.

virtuoussinner
02-24-2007, 12:05 AM
All religions, if taken out of context, can promote violence. I cannot think of a single religion that has not killed members of another.

And it's Judaism, not Jewism.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:10 AM
All religions, if taken out of context, can promote violence. I cannot think of a single religion that has not killed members of another.

And it's Judaism, not Jewism.


Are you suggesting that i took Qur'an 9:5 and 29 out of context?

virtuoussinner
02-24-2007, 12:16 AM
No, what I'm suggesting is that when texts like this are quoted, you must remember that if you don't take the book as a whole, you can come up with anything.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:16 AM
Scriptures like the Qur'an and the Bible are sufficiently long in that one can get them to say anything they want by interpreting specific passages in the way that they feel like. People can argue all they want about them, but in the end it's just the simple fact that they're way too long for any universally clear message to get through. It would have been nice if the Bible solely consisted of the Commandments and that was it (end of all Bible debates, yay!) but too bad, it's not.

There is a way to help Muslims intepret the Qur'an, it's abrogation. if two passages contradict each other, the newest of the passages is the one Muslims are to abide by. It's actually pretty simple. And the Qur'an isn't that long. It's about the size of the New Testament.

On that note, I have many Muslim friends who are quite peaceful (well, except for one ... but I attribute that not to Islam but to his too many readings of Communist texts).

Many are peaceful...in fact, most are.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:19 AM
No, what I'm suggesting is that when texts like this are quoted, you must remember that if you take the book as a whole, you can come up with anything.

Well yes, especially with a book like the Qur'an(a book with no context or chronology). One could come to any conclusion if they only relied on the Qur'an. However, when one includes the Hadith, the Qur'an becomes much, much clearer.

virtuoussinner
02-24-2007, 12:32 AM
"Hadith are traditions relating to the words and deeds of Muhammad."
"The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book. In Islamic jurisprudence, the Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims. However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Qur'anic rules. Muslims believe that they can look at the way of life of Muhammad and his companions to discover what to imitate and what to avoid. Muslim scholars also find it useful to know how Muhammad or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion Muhammad received them. Sometimes this will clarify a passage that otherwise seems obscure." --Quoted from Wikipedia

talisman
02-24-2007, 12:39 AM
Your textual analysis is all well and good, but it does not support your premise. Islam does not "inspire terrorism". There is no doubt that terrorists justify their cause with their religion, and no doubt that they twist the Qur'an when converting new members. But it was not from Islam that terrorism was born. The idea of terrorism comes from a few members of a society looking to impose upon it a new social order. Hell, if you study the rise of the modern radical fundamentalist Muslim movement, it largely started as a reaction to Western society, and the perceived lack of social mores therein. No one sat down and went "Oh whoa, the Qur'an says I should attack non-believers. brb terrorism." But individuals did say "We want to change our society, but we need some way to justify it."

Religion does not found terrorist organizations, but individuals do use twisted views of religion to grant themselves moral authority and legitimacy.

flamingspinach
02-24-2007, 07:15 AM
someone's going to call me insensitive, but, uh...

All religious scriptures were written by human beings, and are imperfect. The concept of religion and what is morally acceptable and what is not has also changed vastly over the centuries. Any religion that is foolish enough to follow some book written by pious ancients to the letter can be accurately said to "inspire behavior akin to what someone more than a thousand years ago thought was 'moral'". Whether that's a good thing or not of course depends on the circumstances - which usually even vary over the course of a scripture, since they often weren't written by only one person (case: the bible).

Basically all I'm saying is that you could pretty much find verses just as bad as each other in the Bible and in the Qur'an until the proverbial cows come home without proving anything about whether religion inspires terrorism or evil deeds.

tha Guardians
02-24-2007, 09:24 AM
Spinach... thank you.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:15 PM
"Hadith are traditions relating to the words and deeds of Muhammad."
"The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book. In Islamic jurisprudence, the Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims. However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Qur'anic rules. Muslims believe that they can look at the way of life of Muhammad and his companions to discover what to imitate and what to avoid. Muslim scholars also find it useful to know how Muhammad or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion Muhammad received them. Sometimes this will clarify a passage that otherwise seems obscure." --Quoted from Wikipedia


I just woke up, so please forgive me if i miss your point.

Isn't this just confirming what i said? The Qur'an is relient on the Hadith? Sorry, i'm a bit slow right now.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:29 PM
Your textual analysis is all well and good, but it does not support your premise. Islam does not "inspire terrorism". There is no doubt that terrorists justify their cause with their religion, and no doubt that they twist the Qur'an when converting new members. But it was not from Islam that terrorism was born.

I suppose a more accurate charge would have been ''Islam inspires hostility torward those who reject it.'' Terrorism is a tactic, so of course it is not necessarly a Islamic method.


idea of terrorism comes from a few members of a society looking to impose upon it a new social order.

Yeah, it's called Islamic law.

study the rise of the modern radical fundamentalist Muslim movement, it largely started as a reaction to Western society, and the perceived lack of social mores therein. No one sat down and went "Oh whoa, the Qur'an says I should attack non-believers. brb terrorism."

Well actually, it did kinda start like that. It's not like it's only been recently that Muslims who been hostile. Within the first to years of the Islamic era, the first Muslims had set out on over a dozen raids- all offensively. Now in truth it was not because they were after non-Muslims, but after loot. Local caravans passing by were their targets. Then after the battle of Badr killing infidels become something Allah praised and later became a mandatory act for all Muslims. Eventually they conquered all of Arabia, Spain, and Egypt killing those who did not submit or pay the Jizyah tax. So you see, this really isn't a new thing for Islam.



Religion does not found terrorist organizations, but individuals do use twisted views of religion to grant themselves moral authority and legitimacy.

Why do you insist that they twist their scriptures? Did you ever think that maybe they're actually following their scriptures properly? Or simply emulating the example their prophet left behind?

flamingspinach
02-24-2007, 12:43 PM
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TheWired724
02-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Basically all I'm saying is that you could pretty much find verses just as bad as each other in the Bible and in the Qur'an until the proverbial cows come home without proving anything about whether religion inspires terrorism or evil deeds.


Well of course..if you took them out of context. But in context, this is not the case. The Qur'an has many open ended verses, the Bible does not.

Kil-
02-24-2007, 12:50 PM
istanbul

flamingspinach
02-24-2007, 01:00 PM
Well of course..if you took them out of context. But in context, this is not the case. The Qur'an has many open ended verses, the Bible does not.

<TheWired724> hehe he summarized it at the end I guess that means I can ignore the first paragraph and then make some totally irrelevant statement that even by itself is unfounded and idiotic and nobody will complain 8)

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 01:13 PM
Sorry, sorry...didn't think it was a big deal.

All religious scriptures were written by human beings, and are imperfect.

I know that, and you know that. But a devoted Muslim really believes the Qur'an is the perfect word of God. This is why some follow it so attentively.


The concept of religion and what is morally acceptable and what is not has also changed vastly over the centuries. Any religion that is foolish enough to follow some book written by pious ancients to the letter can be accurately said to "inspire behavior akin to what someone more than a thousand years ago thought was 'moral'".

Allah's word, to a Muslim, is absolute. Regardless of time Allah's commands must be followed. Muslims are also ordered by the Qur'an to emulate their prophet, and his example doesn't change with time, it stays the same. Sin is still sin to Allah, Jihad is still the most noble cause, and Muhammad is still Muhammad.

Whether that's a good thing or not of course depends on the circumstances - which usually even vary over the course of a scripture, since they often weren't written by only one person (case: the bible).

This little issue right here that you've pointed out is how i know the claim that the Qur'an is inspired by God is false. It wasn't until the 8th century that the Qur'an was canonized into a book. Up until then it had been passed through oral recitation. By then most of those who personally heard the Qur'an from Muhammad, were dying on the battle fields; resulting in much of the Qur'an being lost or distorted.

flamingspinach
02-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Straw man holy ****ing **** straw man out the wazoo dude I don't even

holy **** dude I don't even know what what
what

what

I mean uh

Let me address the one part of this post where you are NOT talking out of your ass about what muslims supposedly believe:

This little issue right here that you've pointed out is how i know the claim that the Qur'an is inspired by God is false. It wasn't until the 8th century that the Qur'an was canonized into a book. Up until then it had been passed through oral recitation. By then most of those who personally heard the Qur'an from Muhammad, were dying on the battle fields; resulting in much of the Qur'an being lost or distorted.

Cool, you just established that it took approximately as long for the bible to be canonized into a book as it did the qur'an! Excellent! Heard of the Council of Rome? It took place almost 400 years after Jesus's death (and thousands of years after whatever happened in the old testament, presumably), and it was the first creation of an "official" set of books in the bible, as far as Christianity was concerned. Even that's a little iffy, since today's Catholic bible was only really finalized at the Council of Trent, which was in the 1500s if I recall correctly. And if you start saying that the Catholic bible is "not authentic", then, uh, well, there goes your justification for the bible as a more authoritative source than the qur'an - considering there's hundreds of versions of it. Great. At least the Qur'an is slightly more consistent since it was written by one person, supposedly.

BUT! Besides all this, you are still totally missing my point, which is that all relatively old scriptures are obsolete and should be discarded. Someone who "interprets the scriptures in their proper context" is what we call a "fundamentalist", you know. A progressive religious person tries to interpret the scriptures of their religion as far as possible from their ancient and outmoded "proper context" as possible.

Kiro51
02-24-2007, 01:41 PM
The coran teach to love people, the respect ect...


But I've heard that it tells to destroy every other religion, or something like that... is it right?

talisman
02-24-2007, 02:02 PM
Well actually, it did kinda start like that.

flatly incorrect.

I was talking about modern terrorism, which did begin largely as a reaction to the perceived lack of values inherent in the material Western culture. No one was reading the Qur'an and then decided to be a terrorist based upon what it said. Religion is USED by terrorists, but it does not endorse or somehow propagate terrorism.

Maid
02-24-2007, 03:14 PM
Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim(you may argue they aren't, but they profess they are. that's all you need for an avg joe), whether Islam a religion of peace or not, fact is most terrorists swear by Islam. Thus bringing it bad name, it doesn't have to be true for something to be perceived as such. You can look again at religions and faith for perfect example. In this case, people die everyday, a lot more concrete evidence isn't it?

jewpinthethird
02-24-2007, 03:53 PM
Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim

What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

Did you just make that up? Because it sounds like you just made that up. In fact, I am going to go as far to say that you did make that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

Do you realize how stupid that comment made you sound? You're from a Red state, aren't you?

Also, you all do realize that Allah is just the Muslim word for God, right? And that it's the same God of the Jews and Christians? And that Moses and Jesus are prophets of Islam? And that Muhammad had respect for all the people of the Book?

flamingspinach
02-24-2007, 04:07 PM
hay jewpin yeah he may be "from a red state" but he's an Elite FFR Supporter okay;; don't be dissin :O

ps you're doing the "what" wrong :D

Maid
02-24-2007, 04:12 PM
What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

Did you just make that up? Because it sounds like you just made that up. In fact, I am going to go as far to say that you did make that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

Do you realize how stupid that comment made you sound? You're from a Red state, aren't you?

Also, you all do realize that Allah is just the Muslim word for God, right? And that it's the same God of the Jews and Christians? And that Moses and Jesus are prophets of Islam? And that Muhammad had respect for all the people of the Book?

Let me clarify, apparently I did not cover all the bases, I tried, alas. Names for God are just semantics. What avg joe out there believes in what I just stated, blame the media but the most(Not all) terrorists who choose to show themselves are indeed believe themselves being Muslim and are being paraded by the media as the big devil and the fact that people die everyday from bombs, its been going for so long now that none really cares anymore and considers it a daily routine, it's quite scary what human can get used to. Again for vast majority comment(death toll over these years speaks for itself)

My comment is perfectly reasonable and not in the least bit stupid, and what is the so called red state comment has to do with anything? Kind of made me think hmmm, calling someones opinion stupid yet already having some preconceived bias that comes from what exactly?:roll:

That list by the way is quite irrelevant to this discussion, we are talking about the Now.

jewpinthethird
02-24-2007, 04:52 PM
That list by the way is quite irrelevant to this discussion, we are talking about the Now.

They invented this crazy thing called the scroll wheel...you should try using one sometime, you'd be surprised, but apparently not all the information on a webpage is present within the default resolution of the browser. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's true.

You said "Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim." (If you didn't mean this, then why did you type it out?)

I said. "No, you're wrong. Your statement is not fact. You pulled it out of your ass. Here's a list of some documented terrorist attacks from before the 11th century to February 22, 2007. You'll notice that terrorism is not unique to Islam. Your statement was ignorant and offensive and it sounds like someone who is pro-George W. Bush would say (hence, Red-State)."

dawgbarf
02-24-2007, 05:03 PM
The Hadith isn't considered the word of Allah, and the translations that you're using as evidence are being taken out of context, since you're taking words like "fight" to mean violence. The vast majority of people who practice Islam are not terrorists, so if Islam teaches terrorism, then why are the majority of muslims not terrorists? There have been terrorists of every religion, all using different excuses to justify their violence ("freedom" fighters for example), and the "muslim terrorists" are really terrorists who happen to be muslim (no relationship between Islam and terrorism) and take the Qur'an out of context to justify their actions. Suicide bombers and other terrorists have been brainwashed into thinking that Islam rewards their actions as martyrs.

Maid
02-24-2007, 05:04 PM
They invented this crazy thing called the scroll wheel...you should try using one sometime, you'd be surprised, but apparently not all the information on a webpage is present within the default resolution of the browser. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's true.

You said "Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim." (If you didn't mean this, then why did you type it out?)

I said. "No, you're wrong. Your statement is not fact. You pulled it out of your ass. Here's a list of some documented terrorist attacks from before the 11th century to February 22, 2007. You'll notice that terrorism is not unique to Islam. Your statement was ignorant and offensive and it sounds like someone who is pro-George W. Bush would say (hence, Red-State)."

Just to keep this straight, this is what I see. I never said terrorism is unique to Islam I only pointed out, that now terrorism is being tied as synonymous to Islam, by the media, they may over blow things out of proportion, do not report incidents that for Example Americans wouldn't want to see. People die everyday to bombs, it is an undisputed fact and various Islamic factions keep claiming they did it. I am able to see 2 sides still, still open to change my mind but there is got to be something more for that to happen.

virtuoussinner
02-24-2007, 05:25 PM
This board went from someone seeking the consensus of opinions to people who are more than likely not Muslim jumping to conclusions about a religion that they are no part of.

jewpinthethird
02-24-2007, 05:35 PM
Just to keep this straight, this is what I see. I never said terrorism is unique to Islam I only pointed out, that now terrorism is being tied as synonymous to Islam, by the media, they may over blow things out of proportion, do not report incidents that for Example Americans wouldn't want to see. People die everyday to bombs, it is an undisputed fact and various Islamic factions keep claiming they did it. I am able to see 2 sides still, still open to change my mind but there is got to be something more for that to happen.

I don't disagree with you in that the American media has blown this who "terrorism = Islam" connection out of proportion. But to claim that most if not all terrorists are Muslims is flat out incorrect. We just hear about Islamic terrorism because of the sh*tf*ck job we did in Iraq.

Maid
02-24-2007, 05:38 PM
This board went from someone seeking the consensus of opinions to people who are more than likely not Muslim jumping to conclusions about a religion that they are no part of.

This is CT, the Authors intent was to gather what we think and even went to such heights as to name the thread "Islam and terrorism"
He never did say, those who "know" what is Muslim. So what if it doesn't conform to what you think ought be. Just seems ridiculous, ( all you are saying, those who don't know what is to be Muslim should shut up, are you from red state by any chance ;)(omg a joke!) ? I do hope you know what CT stands for.

I also hope you realize that you contradicted yourself. :)

I've noticed religious threads are discouraged around here. However i'm very curious about what the consensus is about Islam and violence. I'll do my best to support any claims i make, but first i would like to know what you guys believe.

virtuoussinner
02-24-2007, 05:51 PM
I did indeed contradict myself...:( Thank you for reprimanding me. :P
Perhaps it could have been worded a bit better.
I'm from Texas so Red State yes, but I do not agree with Bush. A topic of conversation for a different thread.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 06:44 PM
Cool, you just established that it took approximately as long for the bible to be canonized into a book as it did the qur'an! Excellent! Heard of the Council of Rome? It took place almost 400 years after Jesus's death (and thousands of years after whatever happened in the old testament, presumably), and it was the first creation of an "official" set of books in the bible, as far as Christianity was concerned. Even that's a little iffy, since today's Catholic bible was only really finalized at the Council of Trent, which was in the 1500s if I recall correctly. And if you start saying that the Catholic bible is "not authentic", then, uh, well, there goes your justification for the bible as a more authoritative source than the qur'an - considering there's hundreds of versions of it. Great. At least the Qur'an is slightly more consistent since it was written by one person, supposedly.

I'm sorry, but you missed my point. It wasn't the fact that the Qur'an wasn't canonized until 200 after Muhamamd's death. It was that in those 200 years the Qur'an was oral recitation only existing in the minds of the first Muslims. Problem is these Muslims all dying in Allah's cause taking what they knew of the Qur'an with them. By the time the Qur'an became a book, over the course of 200 years much of the Qur'an was either forgotten or distorted. Thus contradicting Allah's claim the his scrptures are perfect and uncorrupted. You are correct about the Bible, however unlike the Qur'an, it had a paper trail. The Old Testament had been preserved and there were thousands of manuscripts containing the New Testament.

BUT! Besides all this, you are still totally missing my point, which is that all relatively old scriptures are obsolete and should be discarded. Someone who "interprets the scriptures in their proper context" is what we call a "fundamentalist", you know. A progressive religious person tries to interpret the scriptures of their religion as far as possible from their ancient and outmoded "proper context" as possible.


That's all fine and dandly except that one cannot properly understand a religion without researching its scriptures. Try discarding the Gospel while being a Christian....really, good luck with that.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 06:46 PM
flatly incorrect.

I was talking about modern terrorism, which did begin largely as a reaction to the perceived lack of values inherent in the material Western culture. No one was reading the Qur'an and then decided to be a terrorist based upon what it said. Religion is USED by terrorists, but it does not endorse or somehow propagate terrorism.


So the plethora of passages in the Qur'an that advocate violence against non-Muslims aren't even remotely responsible for today's chaos? Those passages i quoted have nothing to do with it?

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 06:55 PM
The Hadith isn't considered the word of Allah, and the translations that you're using as evidence are being taken out of context, since you're taking words like "fight" to mean violence.

Those two verses i quoted, i'll explained the context. ''Then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)''

''Fight'' and ''slay,'' these words denote a physical meaning.

The vast majority of people who practice Islam are not terrorists, so if Islam teaches terrorism, then why are the majority of muslims not terrorists?

Simple, most Muslims aren't aware of their scriptures, they don't know Muhammad's example. They're simply fed by what the media says.

There have been terrorists of every religion, all using different excuses to justify their violence ("freedom" fighters for example), and the "muslim terrorists" are really terrorists who happen to be muslim (no relationship between Islam and terrorism) and take the Qur'an out of context to justify their actions. Suicide bombers and other terrorists have been brainwashed into thinking that Islam rewards their actions as martyrs.

You know what, explain to me how i took those quotes out of context...please.

TheWired724
02-24-2007, 07:19 PM
Also, you all do realize that Allah is just the Muslim word for God, right? And that it's the same God of the Jews and Christians? And that Moses and Jesus are prophets of Islam? And that Muhammad had respect for all the people of the Book?

Allah is not the God of the Bible, a simple comparison would show that. And although Moses and Jesus are mentioned as prophets in the Qur'an, their stories usually twisted and distorted from the accounts in the Bible...not good if they originated from the same being. And Muhamad had zero tolerance for the people of the book. He may have spoke somewhat highly of them in the beginning, but such statements were abrogated by passages like:Qur'an 5:17 "Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"

Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Qur'an 5:72 "They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.' But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'"

Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath."

Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed."

Or from the Hadith: Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

jewpinthethird
02-24-2007, 09:23 PM
What translation of the Qu'ran are you using?

Also,

“At the time of Mohammed’s appearance,” writes Tor Andrae, “Arabian paganism was tending very strongly toward that type of belief which has been called polydaemonism” or an undeveloped polytheism similar to that of Greek Polytheism (Andrae 13). “Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs” (Aslan 6). “Muhammad’s message was an attempt to reform the existing religious beliefs and cultural practices of pre-Islamic Arabia so as to bring the God of the Jews and Christians to the Arab peoples” (Aslan 17).

Allah is a contraction of al-ilah. A literal translation of Allah is The God. In Islam there is only one God (Smith 222; Aslan 6), “the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews” and consequently the god of Christianity (Aslan 8).
---------
Andrae, Tor. Mohammad: The Man and His Faith. Trans. Theophil Menzel.
Salem: Ayer Company, Publishes, Inc, 1989.

Aslan, Reza. No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam.
New York: Random House, 2006.

Smith, Huston. The World’s Religions: Our Great Wisdom Traditions.
San Fransico: Harper Collins.

dawgbarf
02-25-2007, 02:18 AM
A lot of the arguments you're using to demonize Islam are not based on concrete evidence. Just because you read that the Qur'an was passed on by word of mouth and distorted, doesn't mean that this is what actually happened.
Much of the violence we see in North American media comes from the wars which we are fighting in Islamic countries; you are committing a fallacy by associating violence with Islam, when really you should be associating violence with war. Granted, terrorism isn't the most civil way to kill people in a war (how civil can this be?), but the cause of this is not the teachings of Islam, and it seems very naive to blame the method of retaliation of people from countries being attacked on the Qur'an (certainly, there is a much bigger problem with the world, killing is killing).
I agree that it seems that at the moment, many terrorist acts are being carried out by misguided Muslims, but shouldn't we attribute this to the current socioeconomic and political positions of certain Islamic countries, since we have been shown by history that any oppressed people resort to violence, whether "right" or "wrong", to bring about change? Blaming this on the Qur'an would be using a short-sighted logic.

talisman
02-25-2007, 02:33 AM
So the plethora of passages in the Qur'an that advocate violence against non-Muslims aren't even remotely responsible for today's chaos? Those passages i quoted have nothing to do with it?

correct. Only as far as convincing recruits and self-justification goes have selective passages been used.

This is not a case of someone reading the Qur'an and deciding to attack nonbelievers. Certain selective passages from the Qur'an are being used by terrorists to justify their cause to themselves and to their recruits, but the Qur'an did not inspire their mission in the first place.

Furthermore, it's also worth pointing out that not all of terrorism comes from radicalized Muslims. Look at ETA, '90s northern ireland, november 17, etc etc etc.

TheWired724
02-25-2007, 06:08 PM
What translation of the Qu'ran are you using?

Yusuf Ali



“At the time of Mohammed’s appearance,” writes Tor Andrae, “Arabian paganism was tending very strongly toward that type of belief which has been called polydaemonism” or an undeveloped polytheism similar to that of Greek Polytheism (Andrae 13). “Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs” (Aslan 6). “Muhammad’s message was an attempt to reform the existing religious beliefs and cultural practices of pre-Islamic Arabia so as to bring the God of the Jews and Christians to the Arab peoples” (Aslan 17).

What's your point? I already know Allah's beginnings.

Allah is a contraction of al-ilah. A literal translation of Allah is The God. In Islam there is only one God (Smith 222; Aslan 6), “the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews” and consequently the god of Christianity (Aslan 8).

Have you even read either the Bible or Qur'an? The Bible and Qur'an contradict each other on nearly everything. Allah and Yahweh's personalities are also polar opposites. They're initial followers were the complete antithesis of each other. Sorry, these people don't know what the hell they're talking. If they really are the same God, then God is a schizo.

das1ngerplayer
02-26-2007, 07:13 PM
If I'm right (I not in a thinking mood now so exuse me if I'm wrong) I think the muslims believe that only their religion is correct. Most of them want christians dead. That is why we are fighting in Iraq now. People like Osama want us dead because where christian and were americans.

jewpinthethird
02-26-2007, 09:30 PM
Have you even read either the Bible or Qur'an? The Bible and Qur'an contradict each other on nearly everything. Allah and Yahweh's personalities are also polar opposites. They're initial followers were the complete antithesis of each other. Sorry, these people don't know what the hell they're talking. If they really are the same God, then God is a schizo.

Congratulations, you've officially demonstrated the full extent of your ignorance and completely nullified every post you've made in this thread. Pull your head out of your ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huston_Smith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Aslan

TheWired724
02-27-2007, 11:18 AM
Congratulations, you've officially demonstrated the full extent of your ignorance and completely nullified every post you've made in this thread. Pull your head out of your ass.


Are you really this naive? You never did answer my question: have you ever read either the Qur'an or Bible? Yes, i'm aware the God of the Qur'an claims to be that of the Bible. But a little reading and some common sense will show that is an egregious lie. Allah and Yahweh, they're polar opposites. It's pretty simple. Yahweh had a son, Allah did not. Yahweh made man in his image, Allah made man in the image of a slave. Yahweh wants to have a personal relationship with his creation, Allah does not. Now think about their followers. Yahshua did not tell his followers to spread the good news through bloodshed. Muhammad had his Muslims conquer all of Arabia through the sword. Yahshua told his followers to love their enemies, Muhammad told his followers to kill them. And these are just a few examples, yet you call me ignorant and insist they're the same being.

TheWired724
02-27-2007, 12:08 PM
A lot of the arguments you're using to demonize Islam are not based on concrete evidence. Just because you read that the Qur'an was passed on by word of mouth and distorted, doesn't mean that this is what actually happened.

The earliest Qur'an manuscript existing came from either the late 7th century or the 8th century. Up until then it was oral recitation. Try passing a message with complete accuracy through the course of 200 years. Things are bound to be forgotten or distorted.

Much of the violence we see in North American media comes from the wars which we are fighting in Islamic countries; you are committing a fallacy by associating violence with Islam, when really you should be associating violence with war.

You're suggesting the only reason they're fighting us is because we're fighting them? Have you ever heard of Sayyid Qutb? He was an Egyptian Muslim who visited America to study special methods of education. while he was impressed with the beauty of America itself, he felt the people lacked a spiritual life and put to much emphasis on material possessions. He felt this was influencing the Muslim world aswell. From one of his books he states: ''We should immediately eliminate this pagan influence and the heathen preesure on our world. We must overruen this current society with its culture and leadership of infidels. this is our first priorty: to shake and change the foundations of heathens. We must destroy whatever conflicts with true Islam. We should got out from under the bondage of what keeps us from living in the ways that Allah wants us to live.''

He goes on to say: ''Demolish all governments and organizations that are established by man. Eliminate human racism that exalts one over the other. The return of God's kingdom can only be established by a movement of power and the sword.''

Many terrorists groups follow his philosophy. He did not advocate war because of economic reasons or because America was fighting his country. It was simply because they were not under Islamic law and infuencing his fellow Islamic countries.



Granted, terrorism isn't the most civil way to kill people in a war (how civil can this be?), but the cause of this is not the teachings of Islam, and it seems very naive to blame the method of retaliation of people from countries being attacked on the Qur'an (certainly, there is a much bigger problem with the world, killing is killing).

Not one of the teachings of Islam? I suggest you take a look at Ishaq's Sira sometime.


I agree that it seems that at the moment, many terrorist acts are being carried out by misguided Muslims, but shouldn't we attribute this to the current socioeconomic and political positions of certain Islamic countries, since we have been shown by history that any oppressed people resort to violence, whether "right" or "wrong", to bring about change? Blaming this on the Qur'an would be using a short-sighted logic.


Well if that's the case, then why are they fighting America? If it's because of economic and political conditions, shouldn't they revolt against their own gorvernement rather then America?

sherbtail
02-27-2007, 04:01 PM
If I'm right (I not in a thinking mood now so exuse me if I'm wrong) I think the muslims believe that only their religion is correct. Most of them want christians dead. That is why we are fighting in Iraq now. People like Osama want us dead because where christian and were americans.

Christians believe exactly the same thing, that only their religion is correct. Most Muslims want Christians dead? That's such a turdacious comment, Muslims are as eager to convert Christians as Christians are to convert Muslims. No converting could be done if we were all dead.

Osama is not a fundamental Muslim, because a fundamental Muslim wouldn't support terrorism. Osama just uses religion as an excuse in order to rally some young delusional kids.

Jewpin, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said
TheWired, I think I pretty much disagree with everything you have said

TheWired724
02-27-2007, 04:08 PM
Christians believe exactly the same thing, that only their religion is correct. Most Muslims want Christians dead? That's such a turdacious comment, Muslims are as eager to convert Christians as Christians are to convert Muslims. No converting could be done if we were all dead.

You're looking at it wrong. Islam's goal is not to necessarily convert, but to rid the world of infidels. according to Islamic theology Allah has already predestined whether someone will go to hell or not. So you see the emphasis is not on converting pagans, but ridding the world of them.

Osama is not a fundamental Muslim, because a fundamental Muslim wouldn't support terrorism. Osama just uses religion as an excuse in order to rally some young delusional kids.

Why? Bin Laden is acting no differently then how the first Muslims acted. He's not using religion as a ploy, but rather submitting himself to the religion to accomplish its goals.


Jewpin, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said
TheWired, I think I pretty much disagree with everything you have said


Mind pointing out the fallacies in my statements?

sherbtail
02-27-2007, 05:26 PM
You're looking at it wrong. Islam's goal is not to necessarily convert, but to rid the world of infidels. according to Islamic theology Allah has already predestined whether someone will go to hell or not. So you see the emphasis is not on converting pagans, but ridding the world of them.

Sorry I'll address the other points later, I need sleep now though. But I think you are the one looking at it wrong here, in the Christian faith, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell, thus it is already 'decided' in a sense who is going to heaven or hell. This is really hard to explain... but even though it is decided already and God knows, it is decided through human actions and the choices people make. So even though the future is already decided and written in stone, it is still us who make the future. The same is true of Islam. It is predestined whether someone goes to heaven or hell in the sense that of course Allah knows who goes where, however people do not know who is going where, and so should try and convert everybody they can.

I'm sorry, that was probably really badly explained, but it was hard, and I'm tired

TheWired724
02-27-2007, 05:43 PM
Sorry I'll address the other points later, I need sleep now though. But I think you are the one looking at it wrong here, in the Christian faith, God knows whether you are going to heaven or hell, thus it is already 'decided' in a sense who is going to heaven or hell. This is really hard to explain... but even though it is decided already and God knows, it is decided through human actions and the choices people make. So even though the future is already decided and written in stone, it is still us who make the future. The same is true of Islam. It is predestined whether someone goes to heaven or hell in the sense that of course Allah knows who goes where, however people do not know who is going where, and so should try and convert everybody they can.

I agree with you on Christianity. As a being existing beyond the dimension of time, Yahweh can see what our futures will be and he'll see if we ultimately go to heaven or hell, but he does not determine our fates. Allah is different: Bukhari:V6B60N473 "While we were in a funeral procession, Allah's Apostle said, ‘Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in Hell. They have a happy or miserable fate predestined for them.' A man said, ‘Apostle! Shall we depend upon what is written and give up doing deeds? For whoever is destined to be fortunate, will join the fortunate and whoever is destined to be miserable will go to Hell.'"

Qur'an 70:1 "A questioner questioned concerning the doom about to fall upon the infidels, which none can avert or repel."



Bukhari:V4B55N550 "The Prophet said, ‘Allah has appointed an angel in the womb, and the angel says, "Lord, a drop of semen discharge. Lord, a clot, Lord, a piece of flesh." And then, if Allah wishes to complete the child's creation, the angel will say. Lord, male or a female? Lord, wretched or blessed in religion? What will his livelihood be? What will his age be?" The angel writes all this while the child is in the womb of its mother.'"


Tabari I:306 "The Messenger said, "Allah created Adam and then rubbed Adam's back with his right hand and brought forth his progeny. Then He said, ‘I have created these as the inhabitants of Paradise.' Then he rubbed his back with His left hand and said, ‘I have created those for the Fire, and they will act as the inhabitants of the Fire.' A man asked, ‘O Messenger, how is that?' Muhammad replied, ‘When Allah creates a human being for Paradise, He employs him to act as the inhabitants of Paradise, and he will enter Paradise. And when Allah creates a human being for the Fire, He will employ him to act as the inhabitants of the Fire, and will thus make him enter the Fire.'"


As these passages should demonstrate, unlike Yahweh, Allah actually decides who enters hell or paradise. Before one is borned, Allah has decreed whether one will enter hell or not.


I'm sorry, that was probably really badly explained, but it was hard, and I'm tired

No, i understood you. What you said was logical and rational.

dawgbarf
03-1-2007, 05:46 PM
Don't make generalizations about a religion based on the actions of a few of its 'followers'. There are many more Muslims who follow the teachings of Islam to do good things. By looking at this topic from a single perspective, you are essentially fueling a stereotype and spreading hate.

TheWired724
03-1-2007, 05:56 PM
Don't make generalizations about a religion based on the actions of a few of its 'followers'. There are many more Muslims who follow the teachings of Islam to do good things. By looking at this topic from a single perspective, you are essentially fueling a stereotype and spreading hate.


This statement shows me you haven't read anything i've said. I stated in another post that my opinions are mostly derived from what Islamic text states. And i've also explained why there are so many peaceful Muslims. By spreading your fallicious statements, you are spreading deceit to the ignorant. This ignorance is why America is fighting a war it currently cannot win. Some times, the truth is offensive.

TheWired724
03-7-2007, 05:17 PM
Don't mean to make useless comments...but has my thread died? Or what?

sherbtail
03-7-2007, 06:15 PM
Apparently so...

Hepcat06
03-25-2007, 06:30 PM
We were discussing Islam in our class a while back. I don't know if my memory is clear but we learned about an Islamic word Jihad meaning Holy War. the Qur'an teaches Muslims to go into a holy war. What I think it's supposed to mean, is two things; a fight with yourself inside, and with another to try and convert them or something. Im not too sure. But apparently Binladen twisted this and told Muslims that they needed to go to war with the most evil country, America, and that after they have killed one of these evil people, when they die, they will immediately go to heaven. so ya.. I dont know. i may be totally wrong

GuidoHunter
03-25-2007, 06:39 PM
Did you read this thread before posting what you did?

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com