Interesting indeed

[Anticrombie0909]

I was reading 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' (great book, READ IT) when I came across something that actually made me stop and think. Here's what it said:

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in theUniverse can be said to be Zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

Now, obviously the last part is just humor, but if you pay attention to the bolded bit and think for a minute...kind of wierd, don't you think?

[eldiabo3005]

Yes, that is very interesting. That made me think for a while...

[Cenright]

Sorry, but after my AP calculus class, that just seems so simple. It isn't completely logical in some expanded logic theories, but it still makes sense.

[87x]

umm.. thought about it for like 3 seconds.. then realised that it could be true..

[Anticrombie0909]

Lol I know! And this is from the book where the main theme is 'Forty-two'.

[scorpio1690]

Well no shit. How could someone not know that? I mean, out of all the galxies do you actually think that ours is the only one that has a planet that con support life? Like, fuck, there's billions and trillions of galaxies. And those are only the ones we know of. Now imagine if you were in those galaxies, everything could be horribly different, fuck, for all we know life could just be a play, like Shakespeare (sp?) said, and we are just actors on a set. Could the audience possibly be celestial beings?

[Cenright]

If you belive in the evolutional theory that life was a mistake that came all together (I don't), the you don't know the odds. The odds are so slim, that you can't even see how slim it is with a microscope. It is getting into numbers that don't have names. We are talking googlepex size numbers. So yes, if you believe that the evolutional theory could have worked, then yes. There is a very slime chance that there is other life out there. Then again, you also have to add in all the factors that make this life more intelligent than a microbial being. That means the numbers are so great that it is near impossible.



Let me name some factors that lessen the odds for even life to start.
Habitable planet
-distance from sun
-atmospheric composition
-planet rotation speed
-gasses forming other compounds
I HAVE NOW LESSENED THE SUITABLE SITES TO ONE EVERY 10,000 SOLARSYSTEMS AT BEST.

Now we get into chemistry and all the compounds needed in that atmosphere and everything else. The chance that even a few of these needed compounds are created are slim. A few hundred thousand make it hard. Then EVERY SINGLE one has to be in the right place at the right time in the right condidtion.

WE KNOW WHAT CHEMICALS LIFE CONSISTS OF. WE HAVE NEVER EVEN COME CLOSE TO MAKING IT. AND THIS HAS TO HAPPEN OUT OF CHANCE? THEN IT ALSO HAS TO SURVIVE? THEN IT HAS TO REPLICATE?



See the odds?

[BluE_MeaniE]

Oh, man, I love this kind of discussion....

[Cenright]

Well there sure are a finite number of living planets in this universe.

[scorpio1690]

The way I figure it, the earth will end up as mars, I believe there was life on Mars at least a millenia of years ago. I believe they've done exactly as we're doing and that it drove itself to extinction as we will in years to come. People are to ignorant and one sided to see what we're doing to the wildlife and atmosphere to do anything about it. Or maybe, still on the Mars supporting life topic, maybe they did what is just a couple buttons away, launched all their A-Bombs and destroyed their surface, thos, we have enough to destroy the planet what, 42 times?

[87x]

WELL.. Cenright.. you seem to be very intelligent on this subject.. and i am liking this topic.. with that said.. I would have to say.. there HAS to be other planets out there that support life.. as cenright said that there has to be certain conditions for life to form.. very true.. rotation of a planet.. some sort of gravitational pull is needed.. but.. water.. oxygen.. and other things you would think something would need to survive may not be true.. you base these assumptions on Earth life.. and what we know life to be.. but our life, the life on our planet, are based on the conditions we had on our planet at the time of the forming cells.. there could be different types of cells (if thats what they are) forming for the different conditions of the different plants.. so saying that the odds are against other life forms isnt necessarily true..

[Cenright]

The laws of physics never change. There is no force in the other galaxies ( I know you didn't think that, but I'm clarifying.) There could be anerobic bacteria, but since the same chemistry is UNIVERSAL, things have the same basis of life. Water is still the basis of complex life.

WATER IS SUCH AN ULTIMATE SUBSTANCE. PEOPLE, WHEN YOU TAKE CHEMISTRY, YOU UNDERSTAND HOW INCREDIBLE AND UNIQUE IT IS.

There is no substitute for water, where ever you are. If there was another substitiute that was created so easily that it could double as water, it would already have been found. Something so universal creates itself. (One of those main building blockes that DOESN'T have almost any odds at all.)

______________________________________
Universal properties that are so much better than any other substance that makes water so special:
Polarity
-Adhesion
-Cohesion
PH
-Can act as a base
-Can act as an acid
-Its own buffer solution
-Is the start of all base and acidity because of OH- and H30+
The universal solvent
Aquias by its self (water dissolved in water)
Start of a carrier for electrical current
IT'S SOLID FORM IS NOT ITS DENSEST FORM
_____________________________________
These are just off the top of my head. There are MANY more.

Water is the basis of ANY complex life, no matter where it is. That makes all the other chemicals fairly the same also. Yes, oxgen, nitrogen, carbon, and hydrogen might be altered, but all of those WILL be present and in fairly close structures, because there are only a certain amount of working with water and altering that can be done.

N2, O2, CO2, CH4, H2, C6H12O6, and NH3 can all be altered within reason, but you will find all of those in any life bigger than a few prokaryotic cells.




You have the failure of the cytokinesis (splitting of 2 cells) after binary fission (replcation) to get simple eukaryotic cells.
-Or-
You have the consumption of one prokaryotic by another to get simple eukaryotic cells.
(This starts the big stepping stones!)



We are now at least 3 billion years into the evolution process.

[qualy]

i dont really know enough to contribute to this discussion... but i sure am learning a lot! thanks guys!

[Cenright]

I'm just barely getting into my AP Class Cirriculum.


This is the caliber of discussion that my family has at the dinner table. Sad isn't it? Our entire family got the intelligence gene (IF it exists, but that is a WHOLE 'nother discussion).



It is my bed time decreed by my parents for the night. I will hope to keep this going tomorrow.

[87x]

Alright.. we came up with these "assumptions" that water is the basis of all life because we study it on earth.. scientist can say that it has to be there.. BUT.. in reality they don't really know for fact.. it is all in theory.. so although all life on earth is made up of water.. that doesn't mean that all life must have water.. I can not give any examples.. or even begin to try to describe how it would come to be.. because there is no truth to my logic.. and there is also no falsifications to it either.. It is just as easy to think that there can be life with water.. to think that there can be life without it.. Reason for it beign so hard to conceptualize is because you have always been tought the water ways and there has never been prove to support anyother type of life..

If i repeated anything in here.. or left out reasoning behind something.. then just tell me.. i dont hae time to re-read and fix all the errors
..peace..

[jewpinthethird]

Let me name some factors that lessen the odds for even life to start.
Habitable planet
-distance from sun
-atmospheric composition
-planet rotation speed
-gasses forming other compounds
I HAVE NOW LESSENED THE SUITABLE SITES TO ONE EVERY 10,000 SOLARSYSTEMS AT BEST.


See, those are the right conditions for life, as we know it, on Earth to be. But, as Anti said "there are an infinite number of worlds". And those worlds might contain a life form unimaginable by human minds. Remember, there are only 5 kingdoms of living organisms on Earth. Who knows what lie out in the unseen cosmos.

"Reason for it beign so hard to conceptualize is because you have always been tought the water ways and there has never been prove to support anyother type of life"
-87x

Whingo.

[Tasuke]

Gahhhh. so confusing
Losing brain stuff
Brain hurt. Can't not think forword
*falls down and starts to drool*

I think that somewhere in the universe there are planets where other beings have evolved to the type of enviroment that they live in, but here we are just begging the chain of events that could posssibly determine what way we destroy ourselves (if we do) in the future.
But the other planets in our solar system have (probably) microorganisms living and evolving in a way that lets them to adapt to their enviroment. But, we were first to acttually sprout life because of the chopice factors that helped creat our planet. So say for instance in a few hunderd, thousand years life we be advanced enough on possibly habital( planets like our own) will be just expirincing what we did thousands of years ago. Causing like a dinosaur age or something.
Then think of the awsome irony. By the time anouther might have evolved enough to expirince space-travel they see our "doomed lifes and such and think that there "might of been" life on our Panet

[Cenright]

The commoness yet uniqueness of water makes it #1. It is embedded into physics itself. Let's pretend that there is another substace that works like water.

If there was, we would see it ON EARTH because of its commoness. The other galaxies still have to follow the "Universal Laws of Physics" There can be variation in the variables, but they can NOT break the rules, just as our system can NOT break the rules.

This means that although their "habitable life conditions" might be completely different, they still have to follow physics, and there must be a basic chemical of life.

That chemical for US is water. The formation of water is a basic process that is easily done by the universe itself (in habitable conditions of course).

There are only a certain amount of different atoms on the periodic table. These only make compounds a certain way. The life chemical has to be one of simplicity or it defeats its own purpose. THERE ARE NO "DIFFERENT PERIODIC TABLES FOR DIFFERENT GALAXIES".

There might be a few compounds that are used less or more, but Water is the same whether it is here or anywhere else. It is made from the same UNIVERSAL atoms. And therefore, there is no substitute

[VxDx]

The math in the beginning is all wrong. If there is an infinite number of planets and we assume that, say every trillionth or so is inhabited, then there are an infinite number of inhabited planets. If you were to say that there are, say, 500 inhabited planets, out of an infinite number, you are still making that assumption that you get a finite result from an infinite set.

It's like prime number theory, there are an infinate number of numbers, and there are a certain amount of numbers that are prime as well. Well as you go towards infinity, the prime numbers get further and further apart, but there is still an infinite number of primes.



As for the evolution business, supposing the universe is relatively infinite, no matter the odds of creation, it is a certainty.

[heyhey11]

i am so thankful to anticrombie for making a thread with a meaningful thought provoking substance unlike pyramids which are fun indeed but extremely pointless

[Anticrombie0909]

Well, here's how I interpeted the text. Yes, Cenright, you may be right, probably are, in fact, and less than 1 planet in every 10,000 supports life. However, under the assumption that the Universe is infinite, that would mean that there are an infinite amount of planets, and therefore an infinite amount of planets that support life.

[QreepyBORIS]

Except infinity isnt a number, and you should not treat it as one.

You cant divide by it. I mean, try it: Infinty divided by infinity IS FUCKING INFINITY STILL.

Therefore, an infinite number of wordls are inhabited, and an infinite amount of organisms exist.

Or maybe fewer.

[VxDx]

You cant divide by it. I mean, try it: Infinty divided by infinity IS #$#ing INFINITY STILL.



infinity divided by infinity is not necessarily infinity, but is rather dependant on the context from which it is derived.

[scorpio1690]

The commoness yet uniqueness of water makes it #1. It is embedded into physics itself. Let's pretend that there is another substace that works like water.

If there was, we would see it ON EARTH because of its commoness. The other galaxies still have to follow the "Universal Laws of Physics" There can be variation in the variables, but they can NOT break the rules, just as our system can NOT break the rules.

This means that although their "habitable life conditions" might be completely different, they still have to follow physics, and there must be a basic chemical of life.

That chemical for US is water. The formation of water is a basic process that is easily done by the universe itself (in habitable conditions of course).

There are only a certain amount of different atoms on the periodic table. These only make compounds a certain way. The life chemical has to be one of simplicity or it defeats its own purpose. THERE ARE NO "DIFFERENT PERIODIC TABLES FOR DIFFERENT GALAXIES".

There might be a few compounds that are used less or more, but Water is the same whether it is here or anywhere else. It is made from the same UNIVERSAL atoms. And therefore, there is no substitute

I need some powdered water where all I have to do is wadd water.... That'd be sweet...

[MWGwyn]

I just finished my collection an hour ago, sadly I got the trilogy of four, before relizing that there is a five set one.

[makaveli121212]

You cant divide by it. I mean, try it: Infinty divided by infinity IS #$#ing INFINITY STILL.



infinity divided by infinity is not necessarily infinity, but is rather dependant on the context from which it is derived.

very true thanks to our pal L'Hospital (Lopeytall...its french)...good old AP calc and the stupid things we do...dividing infinity by 0 and by infinity and 0 by 0...point is infinity divided by infinty can be any number...check L'Hospital if you donr believe me

[dontcareaboutmyid]

hehe you're all figments of my imagination.

[Cenright]

Correct Anticrombie. Yet if the creation of life is still on a time frame. Let me explain.

It all starts with the big bang. All the mass which later forms into galaxies and stars and planets comes from one explosion, all galaxies are flying away from each other (which has been proven by Red and Blue shift). The explosion would create a massive gravity well, so... all galaxies would eventually slow down from going away from each other, stop, and then start getting pulled back.
This is only if the BIG BANG actually started it.

If there was a big bang, It seems you would have to have a finite amount of mass in the beginning, and therefore a finite amount of planets.(see lined section for the argument flaw.)


This means that if it does in fact come back together, it starts the process all over. This means that our infinite amount of time for our "life odds" to set in and produce life is broken up by finite amount of time. This means that with our long odds, it might have taken a few cycles of the big bang just to produce us. It might only happen every few thousand big bangs. Maybe that life is produced only every few big bangs. (Big Bang might be more than a few tri/quad/pentillion years or more.)


IF there was an infinite amount of space and planets, There would be a near infinite amount of distance between life-seed planets. Since we don't have an infinite amount of time to find them, there is almost an infinitely small chance that we will find any others.


__________________________________________________ _____
WHAT MESSES THE AGRUMENT UP AND PATCHES A FEW THINGS UP
For the big bang explosion:
(The Problem)
The main problem with my argument is that you can fit an infinite amount of mass in an infinite amount of space. And therefore have an infinite amount of energy to fuel the infinite explosion.

The infinite explosion would have caused an infinately large gravity well which would have cause an infinitely strong pull which would have equalized the infinitely strong shove outward, meaning the mass would have stop to stop at one time soon and get pulled back in. This would take time for the "explosion push" to be counteracted. It happened before the gravity well happened, giving it a head start, but the REaction would finally pull it back, even if it was moving away.

(The Fix)
The Infinite explosion happened for a finite amount of time. The infinite gravity well is happening for a longer amount of finite time. This means that the gravity well WILL over come the explosion force. Going by equal energy amounts, the gravity well should run out just as the mass all comes back together.
____________________________________________



Then comes the bible.
(Don't worry. I'm leaving it out of this debate. This is a science debate.)

[Anticrombie0909]

Then comes the bible.
(Don't worry. I'm leaving it out of this debate. This is a science debate.)

Thank you, for the love of...uh, someone. By the time that was finished I'd be banned from FFR and have about 10,000 angry priests and rabbis beating a path to my door.

And you really explained that very well, btw. This is very interesting so far. And so far, not one flame (amazing, innit?)

[makaveli121212]

Cen, life wasnt produced from the big bang...i dont see why the big bang needs a finite amount of mass...i dont believe there are a finite number of planets...it cannot be, even if space goes on forever, which cant be proven, there is no way there are an infinite number of planets...think about it...i mean cen's arguement proves mine, infinte energy, infinte mass, infinte time...infinty does not even exist, so nothing pertaining to it can

[Cenright]

Addressing the Crowd:
Sounds confusing doesn't it people? Let me put out on the table that the human mind (in its current state) can not fully even comprehend the full concept of infinity.

EXAMPLE
If time was infinite, then it would have to go back an infinite amount of time. This means that not only is time going on forever in the future, it is going on backwards through the past further and further because there is no beginning and no beginning to ever stop time from going progressing backwards further and further.


THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A WHILE.

[makaveli121212]

i already did think about that, it isnt that humans cannot comprend infinty though, it is just non-existent and not possible

[Lupin_the_3rd]

or how about the fact that we think we know everything there is to know about the world around us... that's what was thought by scientists at the turn of the 19th century...

what we know today as fact could actually be a pile of bullshit

just look back a couple hundred years, see what they thought about our world

now imagine a couple hundred years from now...everything thought implausible could be a reality and so on...

what I'm trying to say is, as far as we know, we could all be wrong

[makaveli121212]

now that is the most intelligent thing i have heard you say in a long time...kudos...it's is obvious we dont know everything, however, many things we can now prove by facts; whereas in the past only 'theories' have been proven to be wrong...are facts are not wrong, but are theories may be...good point there lupin...one theory that could change the way we think is String Theory, check that out if you guys hadnt already

[Lupin_the_3rd]

but could these facts be caused by a lucky string of favorable variables not known to us that affect our physics and chemistry laws and so on..(i'm not saying you're wrong)

[Cenright]

The concept of infinity does exist. If it didn't, none of Calculus would exist because of the limits you do at the very beginning (or the end of Pre-Calc). The concept of infinity is still there; it still exists. We just can't fully comprehend it.

Time keeps going. No matter what, time keeps going.



-Edit-
Then again, time is relative to each and every person. Does that mean that if no-one existed that time would not exixt?

I feel this is a relevant question:
If a tree falls in the woods and no-one is around to hear it, did it really make a sound?

[Lupin_the_3rd]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME, IT IS A BENCHMARK MADE BY HUMANS TO DESCRIBE THINGS

[Anticrombie0909]

Yeah. Its hard to conceptualize something so broad and abstract, but think about it logically. Start with something easy, like counting. You can count to 10, to 100, to a googleplex. Theoretically, you could count to infinity, because there's no logical reason for there not to be an infinite number of 'things'.

[makaveli121212]

infinty exists theoretically, like in math, but in reality, with mass, and time, and what-have-you, and infinte quanity of something cannot exist

[Lupin_the_3rd]

except for the CONCEPT (seeing how time doesn't exist) of time, that will continue to go on forever, you don't need somebody saying, yeah time is still going...time is infinite, yet time is not real, so yeah you're right...infinity is theoretical, not tangible

[makaveli121212]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME, IT IS A BENCHMARK MADE BY HUMANS TO DESCRIBE THINGS

thats the most intellignt thing i heard you say since...well a few posts ago...couldnt agree more with that, very very good point...and no you cannot count to infinty, i mean that only proves that it doesnt exist...you count numbers, guess what infinty isnt a number it is an idea, a theory, that has been established...i mean if infinty does exist then the number right before infinty exists, well you tell me that number

[Lupin_the_3rd]

googleplex and one

[makaveli121212]

no, because the number after that is googleplex and 2...that doesnt equal infinty, or can you prove me wrong

[Lupin_the_3rd]

googleplex and 3, then (lol i'm just messin...





















it's googleplex and 4)

[makaveli121212]

i know, i know...but my post does prove a good point...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TIME, IT IS A BENCHMARK MADE BY HUMANS TO DESCRIBE THINGS

thats the most intellignt thing i heard you say since...well a few posts ago...couldnt agree more with that, very very good point...and no you cannot count to infinty, i mean that only proves that it doesnt exist...you count numbers, guess what infinty isnt a number it is an idea, a theory, that has been established...i mean if infinty does exist then the number right before infinty exists, well you tell me that number

[Lupin_the_3rd]

yeah...infinity is not a number, it's like saying forward or up...there is no end...it's a concept, not a placeholder for a number

[Cenright]

Yes. Time is just the relative rhythm of counting the passage of actions. A BENCHMARK (thanks for the term lupin).

There is nothing physical that can't be quantified; That is true.

This is where the whole god thing comes in, and since that is not part of this conversation, infinity stays as a concept and nothing more.

The same with counting. There is only mathematics that shows you the concept of infinity:
1
0

Infinity started with math and has never surpassed math. Then again, that concept has a lot of real world applications:
The biggest I can think of is derivatives.

[makaveli121212]

so now that is established, lets get back to the....wait what the hell are we talkin about *looks back at previous pages* oh yeah space...and stuff

[Cenright]

This was a debate about scientific theory, and it seems we finally hit a dead end in where this topic can go.

[Feuergeist]

I think therefor i am.

According to that, I exist in some form, whereas you all are just "nothing"

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Timeline is really good at exemplifying what we've said and demonstrates a REALLY convincing theory about time travel (previous to that i had thought timetravel was bs)

EDIT: Read the book, not the movie (movie blows)

[willson13]

Can one of ya'll jump over to the Sig/Av thread and help me out? Please?

[Cenright]

It was good when it lasted though, I want to take this lull to thank everone for all the great thoughts you put into this topic. You guys did a great job.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Can one of ya'll jump over to the Sig/Av thread and help me out? Please?

it's called a pm

[willson13]

It'd take too much troubl to PM all of those people.

[makaveli121212]

It was good when it lasted though, I want to take this lull to thank everone for all the great thoughts you put into this topic. You guys did a great job.

i can see why the topics can be interesting and how it sucks to have some screw them up (ie me, vxd)...hopefully we can get some more of these

[Lupin_the_3rd]

I'd have to say this is one of the most intellectual and thoughtful threads (without arguing) i've seen in a long time

[willson13]

Have ya'll, well specifically Cenright, ever heard of www.sciforums.com ? I used to go there quite frequently. It's awesome if you love talking about this stuff.

[makaveli121212]

AMEN

[Lupin_the_3rd]

lol this should be stickied as "the exemplary thread"

[Moogy]

There is an infinite amount of nothing in the cosmos. By this logic, we can come to the fact that anything that does exist is so overwhelmed by the nothingness that there is no point in its existence, because any form of it (existence) is obviously is too small to make a difference in anything. From this we can conclude that life is meaningless, along with everything else, including time and space. Moral of the story? Everything is meaningless, don't sweat it. Just live your meaningless lives on your meaningless world in your meaningless solar system inside of your meaningless galaxy that is part of your meaningless universe that is part of the cosmos, which are meaningless.

You can tell I'm going to take philosophy, can't you?

[Lupin_the_3rd]

precisely, and (without breaching religious beliefs) you might as well do whatever the hell you want because (if you are not religious) when you die, you will remember nothing, you will be in a state of nothingness, though you won't be conscious (in the mind) so everything will suddenly end. For this reason I am religious...what would you rather have to be your end? seriously...

i could get more into religious stuff, but I don't want to offend anyone, but I will say this, if there is a God, how do we know for sure that our lives are meaningless, he could have set everything up so as to seem he doesn't exist. What proof have you that he does, or doesn't exist? Ok i'll stop there

[jewpinthethird]

Taking Philosophy is meaningless.

[Cenright]

Sounds like AP Microeconomics in perfect competition Moogy. Each firm is insignificant to the big picture. No one could ever make a change to the rest.

It is off topic, but it is neat to see that the same theory can be altered to be used for something completely different. Humans have a habit and they almost never change it do they. Then change becomes a habit somehow and then it keeps changing. People always seem to follow the norm without even knowing it.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

oh yeah, another thing to think about that has been on my mind:

you know what would be really funny? If Earth was an "atom" or "molecule" that made up something that belonged to a bigger world, and other galaxies were just like other "molecules" for example...It seems to make sense to me though, objects around us are built up of like 99% nothing ( i can't remember the exact percent) which would describe space and planets (99% space 1% matter) confusing I know...but maybe we just haven't had a broad enough perspective

[Brainmaster07]

o_O, unless our school has been teaching us wrong, the universe is NOT infinate, so therefor practically nothing in this topic can be true...

what ever happened to that whole expanding and colapsing of the universe? the space is finite, but the amount of times it does it isn't. But then again, if the universe is finite, what's beyond it o_O?

[87x]

hm.. i mad i missed all the action on this thread.. but i would still ilke to say something... space can NOT be infinate.. think about it.. a mass explosion caused the universe to happen (the big bang), if the explosion made the universe then the whent he explosion stopped then the amount of spcae it created stopped.. unless the Big bang was still happening right now.. still exploding and making more space, then space must have an end.. Even if you traveld at 5X the speed of light for an entire life time and never found the end.. it has to have one.. and since it IS a cycle for the big bang.. that means everything gets pulled back to the center again, then that is evidence that space isn't infinate.. you cant pull an infinate amount of anything to a center point.. So space cant be infinate..

[Cenright]

There are 2 kinds of theories. Open universes and Closed universes. You are thinking of the closed one.

[Anticrombie0909]

Well I learned that the Universe (this is speaking strictly theoretically, mind you) is like one giant, inverted planet where everyone lives on the inside. While the Universe itself doesn't move, everything inside it does.

[jewpinthethird]

Did anyone read A Wind in the Door, the second book in the A Wrinkle in Time series? It states that even the most insignificant organism can affect the whole cosmos in a crazy chain reaction. It the story, the child (who is supposedly the savior) has a disease in which his mitochandria is destroyed this making the child extremely weak. If he died, the world would die, if the world died, the solar system, if the solar system, the galaxy etc. Now, think, if we nuke the hell out of the world, and destroy, we might throw the solar system out of whack. All the planets are an exact amount from each other (except for Pluto). It is pretty crazy how it all works.

The fact that space might be finite is to great an idea to full comprehend. What is beyond that? UGGHGHGG....MY BRAIN. And the idea that the universe is infinite just seems more logical. UGH. I have so many ideas that I just cannot put into words.

There are three theories.

The universe expands, reaches a point, retracts. The process starts over.

The universe expands, runs out of matter, dissipates.

The universe expands, reaches a point, and stays as is.

[Cenright]

That is the closed form Anti.

There are a few theories to that also. Twists on the edge of the universe that would put you on the other side. It is too hard to explain in words. You need visuals and everything.

If you just believed that the universe has an end, it would be just like old sailors that felt if they went to far they would fall off the edge of the earth.



Jewpin:
I explained that sort of as a side topic, but I didn't put any tags on it. Thanks for making it WAY more clear.

[jewpinthethird]

I wish the human mind wasnt so primitive.

[Tasuke]

Even if the universe is constantly expanding, would there, could there be a exact center of the universe?

Because if the universe is ever expanding does it all go and progress at the same time in all directions?
or does it grow out at uneven spurts constantly changing the universe as we know it making new planets, and stars every second.

Cen: If a tree falls in the middle of thye forest and now bodys around, it does because all vibration causes sound. such as: vocal chords, tapping on a desk, ringing a bell. It does. I learned that kind of stuff in the first grade but never really thoiught about it that way. What if there's a video-camera in the middle of a forest and you leave it watching a tree that you know is gonna fal down. Nobody is around, but the video-camera tapin' the tree falling and causing sound.

Semi-relative question: If a tree falls on a mime in the middle of a forest and noones around to hear, does anyone really care???

[Cenright]

Yes. the center would be the Big bang (which started the expansion).

[Tasuke]

Yes. the center would be the Big bang (which started the expansion).

But, that would be only if the universe expanded together and in the same direction all in the same time.

but how do we know that the universe grows out in even areas instead of giant spurts.

[Cenright]

We don't, but all the vectors of all the big bang debris vector away from THAT spot. It makes it the RELATIVE center; not the ABSOLUTE center.

[jewpinthethird]

To look into space is to look back in time since it takes millions of years for light to travel across the cosmos before it reaches Earth. Therefore, if you have a strong enough telescope, and you aimed it in the right position, you can see the early universe (I learned about that last year). Although it is still a theory, it makes since. But it is still way over my head.

As Earth keeps being pushed further and further in the ever expanding universe, it's speed is ever increasing while the center of the universe stays the same, does that make all that which is near the center of the universe older? As stated in another thread "as speed increases, time too increases".

And what if the universe keeped expanding to the point in which our solar system begins to travel at the speed of light. What then?

[Brainmaster07]

So if we had a powerful enough microscope we could see the big bang in it's begginings...

Bah! that's so annoying, you look out at the sky, but you're not looking at 'todays' sky, you could be focusing on a spot 1,000 years ago, or a 1,000,000. So you could be looking at something, that in reality isn't there, BUT YOU STILL SEE IT! AAAAHHHHHHHH.

[Cenright]

Yes. You would see a point in time that happened a few million years ago for some galaxies. Some don't even exist any more, but the absence of light wont hit us for another few million years. We are watching the past.

Our own sun could go out and we would not know it for 8 MINUTES.

[jewpinthethird]

I was just about to mention the whole sun dying. Although, if the sun were to "die" you would know before those 8 mintues because of the sudden lack of gravitational pull, Earth would be send spiraling off into space like a sling shot. Not to mention the extremely large heat discharge that would scorn half the Earth.

[Cenright]

yeah. but the sun first gets real big before it dies. That would consume us right there.

[Brainmaster07]

You know, when I was in like 2nd grade I lived in constant fear the Sun had blown up and I wouldn't know my fate for another 8 minutes :?.

[makaveli121212]

I was just about to mention the whole sun dying. Although, if the sun were to "die" you would know before those 8 mintues because of the sudden lack of gravitational pull, Earth would be send spiraling off into space like a sling shot. Not to mention the extremely large heat discharge that would scorn half the Earth.

WRONG...light travels faster than gravity, therefore you would not feel the lack of gravitational pull from the sun before the planet is already dark

[Cenright]

But I clarified that. And Brain. We can never see the big gang. If our galaxy was travelling away from it at a speed slower than the speed of light, it would have already reached us. How ever many lightyears away from something you are is how long it takes to it to get there. If our galaxy is going FASTER than the speed of light (I extremely doubt it), we would be running away from the light from the big bang and therefore, never see it. Then again, the we would not see ANY galaxies on that side of us either, and so it isn't true.

[Moogy]

I was just about to mention the whole sun dying. Although, if the sun were to "die" you would know before those 8 mintues because of the sudden lack of gravitational pull, Earth would be send spiraling off into space like a sling shot. Not to mention the extremely large heat discharge that would scorn half the Earth.

WRONG...light travels faster than gravity, therefore you would not feel the lack of gravitational pull from the sun before the planet is already dark
Completely wrong. I watched an interesting show on NOVA a while ago, about something called "String Theory". In the course of explaining this theory, it also disproved your point, I'm afraid.

So... yeah. Anyone else watch that show?

[Cenright]

I THINK I might have seen it, but it wouldn't remember anything well enough to know exactly. If I was shown it again, I would know if I had actually seen it. (Then again that doesn't help)

[zajac]

this is why i like the matrix so much because it really makes you think and there is no known definite answer.....

[Anticrombie0909]

This...really...has nothing to do with the Matrix.

So changing topics a bit...if the Universe truely is infinite, what happens after the Big Crunch (if you believe that theory)?

[makaveli121212]

I was just about to mention the whole sun dying. Although, if the sun were to "die" you would know before those 8 mintues because of the sudden lack of gravitational pull, Earth would be send spiraling off into space like a sling shot. Not to mention the extremely large heat discharge that would scorn half the Earth.

WRONG...light travels faster than gravity, therefore you would not feel the lack of gravitational pull from the sun before the planet is already dark
Completely wrong. I watched an interesting show on NOVA a while ago, about something called "String Theory". In the course of explaining this theory, it also disproved your point, I'm afraid.

So... yeah. Anyone else watch that show?

oh yeah absolutley i saw it...that is the most interesting flick ive seen...i actuallt mentioned string theory earlier in this thread...i dont know here, ibut if guys havent heard of it i suggest you check it out...btw the image of the Sun disappearing and the affect it would have on our plante light and gravity wise is very well illustrated

[jewpinthethird]

This...really...has nothing to do with the Matrix.

So changing topics a bit...if the Universe truely is infinite, what happens after the Big Crunch (if you believe that theory)?

That would mean that the "universe" is not infinite.

[VxDx]

makaveli is kinda right, gravity travels at the speed of light.

[Cenright]

I thought gravity was a magnetic wave, making it slower because it isn't a light wave...

[scorpio1690]

makaveli is kinda right, gravity travels at the speed of light.

Gravity doesn't travel as a speed does it? It's just the pull of a massive object, the bigger something is, the more pull it has on things, and the closer you get to the large object, the faster you travel because you are being sucked into it's pull.... So gravity doesn't really travel, more or less, it's just a natural thing that's always there until you break free by going massive amounts of speed in the opposite direction. And gravity isn't caused by magnetic waves or pulses or whatever either is it? Cause if it was, one, computers wouldn't work at all, two, all metal objects would be stuck to the ground, and three, we would fly off the planet seeing how there is no metal at all in us. That's proven by catskans, if you go and get one and we did have metal in us we'd be ripped apart.

[RobbyZero]

Wow cool,I'd like to see tha happen. Anyways enough with this mumbo jumbo :P


I can believe that there immumerable worlds/dimensions/planets and such. Why not believe it?

[QreepyBORIS]

Gravity has speed.

Thus gravity waves, in space....

[IAMTHEEVILBEAN]

Yogurt on wheels moves to

very fast

[scorpio1690]

Yogurt on wheels moves to

very fast

If you can't say anything intelligent, shut the fuck up.

Explain these "gravity waves". Though, I was more talking along the lines of gravity on planets, what are these? Is it like when a Red Giant implodes creating a black hole and it's the speed of which the black holes gravity reaches a physical object to pull into it?

[QreepyBORIS]

Nice try, a red giant implodes into a blue giant....

[VxDx]

I'll see if I can find a link to a website about it...

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/gravity.html

that's the site, but this pretty much sums it up...

The electromagnetic field can have waves in it that carry energy and that we call light. Likewise, the gravitational field can have waves that carry energy and are called gravitational waves. These may be thought of as ripples in the curvature of spacetime that travel at the speed of light.

[jewpinthethird]

One theory about black holes are that when a star implodes, all it's mass is compressed until there is no longer any space between particles. Thus creating an object with such immense weight, that it actually bends the matter around it causing a sort of "pocket in space" (some how gravity is mixed into the equation). The gravity produced by the black hole is so great that not even light can escape it.

I dont know all the facts, but it was something along those lines.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/GravWaves.html

[scorpio1690]

Nice try, a red giant implodes into a blue giant....

Really? Cause I thought that it was mainly dependant on the size of the star when it explodes or implodes. So different paths can be taken, some don't reach Red Giant, but what was it that sometimes takes the path of a black hole?

And VxDx, grade 8 cirriculum, I'm not smart enough to understand what the hell any of that site. I can grasp a couple sentences...If I try I could probably come up with more, but I don't want to have to think that hard about what I'm reading. (Hence the lazy factor)

[QreepyBORIS]

It's blue giants that turn into supernovas/neutron stars, typically.

[scorpio1690]

It's blue giants that turn into supernovas/neutron stars, typically.

The Protostar Stage:

A giant star will start its life out, like so many other stars, as a protostar. The difference is that a protostar that will eventually form a giant star starts 100 times larger in diameter than the Sun (approx. 139 000 000 km or 86 000 000 miles) and at least 3 times the mass of the Sun (approx. 2 x 1030 kg or 6 x 1027 tons). It contracts in on itself due to the gravity created by its enormous mass, and quickly heats up. In a matter of a few thousand years, the protostar becomes a Blue Giant. Nuclear fusion starts in the core at 7 000 000 K, creating isotopes of Hydrogen (see the advanced Proton-Proton fusion reactions page for a more technical look at the first fusion process). The outer layer of the star is already heated to 3000 K and will become warmer.


The Blue Giant Stage:

The giant star has now contracted to only 6 times the diameter of our Sun (approx. 8 000 000 km or 5 000 000 miles), their surface temperature is now over 4 times hotter than that of the Sun, 23 000 K, and this is only a temporary position! A blue giant will last for a maximum of 100 million years, during which it will fuse its Hydrogen into Helium at a speed of over 20 trillion tons per second, that's more than 16 000 times faster than the Sun! The amount of heat produced by this rate of reactions is enormous! The star now definitely appears a blue-white colour, and doesn't belong to the line of main-sequence stars, but rather to the upper right corner of the Hertzprung-Russell Diagram. As more Helium is produced, fusion slows down in the core, allowing it to be compressed by gravity. This compression actually increases the core temperature, causing the expansion of the outer Hydrogen layers of the star. The star doubles in size, the outer layers cool, and it starts another stage.

The Red Giant Stage:

The blue giant has now expanded to a red giant, and continues to expand as the core is compressed more. Not very many interesting things going on at this time. The core temperature steadily increases to 100 000 000 K as it continues to grow into the next stage.

The Supergiant Stage:

The Helium core of the red giant continues to contract, and during that contraction it ignites a couple shells of Hydrogen around the core when the temperatures reach 10 000 000 K. This new layer of fusion, and the heat created by it, accelerates the expansion of the star to the supergiant stage. The supergiant is back to 100 times the size of the sun (see above) and will continue to grow! When compression of the Helium core raises the temperature to 100 000 000 K, the Helium contained in it begins to fuse together into Carbon. This new addition to the fusion reactions in the core of the star balloons its size to over 300 times the diameter of the Sun (over 420 000 000 km or 260 000 000 miles)! The giant's mass will continue to compress its core, starting new fusion reactions, eventually leading to the creation of an Iron core. To see the advanced reactions, click here. The Iron core will not compress to fuse into other elements, because of Iron's atomic structure. Iron has one of the most efficient structure of all elements, therefore making it very difficult to undergo fusion. Iron does undergo fusion, but not at the temperature found inside of any star, no matter how large the star is!

[jpyb007]

This is pertaining the first few pages. (Sorry, but I normally try to avoid the popular posts since they normally turn into flame wars.)

Isn't it possible that because of the conditions of Earth, we need certain substances, molecules, and whatnot present to habitate life. But on a planet with completely different condions, life would need to use other types of substances, molecules, and whatnot to provide for a specific type of lifeform that is suited to live with those kinds of conditions. We may not be able to "make" these types of creatures, but that is because of the environmental conditions of Earth. The organisms may die/explode when exposed to oxygen, a certain amount of gravity, a certain amount of air pressure, or maybe even a specific humidity level, so they would not be able to be created on Earth or observed on Earth. Life on Earth may require water, but maybe the life on the other planet uses something completely different...although I don't know what it would use, I don't really feel like going too deep into this stuff since it was already debated.

Infinity/infinity would equal 1, since anything divided by itself is 1, for example 12/12=1 just like 10000/10000=1 or even googleplex/googleplex=1...right?

[scorpio1690]

This is pertaining the first few pages. (Sorry, but I normally try to avoid the popular posts since they normally turn into flame wars.)

Isn't it possible that because of the conditions of Earth, we need certain substances, molecules, and whatnot present to habitate life. But on a planet with completely different condions, life would need to use other types of substances, molecules, and whatnot to provide for a specific type of lifeform that is suited to live with those kinds of conditions. We may not be able to "make" these types of creatures, but that is because of the environmental conditions of Earth. The organisms may die/explode when exposed to oxygen, a certain amount of gravity, a certain amount of air pressure, or maybe even a specific humidity level, so they would not be able to be created on Earth or observed on Earth. Life on Earth may require water, but maybe the life on the other planet uses something completely different...although I don't know what it would use, I don't really feel like going too deep into this stuff since it was already debated.

Infinity/infinity would equal 1, since anything divided by itself is 1, for example 12/12=1 just like 10000/10000=1 or even googleplex/googleplex=1...right?

In that post you have brought one new fact to our attention. Infinity divided by infinity could not eequal one seeing how infinity is everlasting and goes on forever, therefore, in order to KNOW that infinity divided by infinity equals one is by giving it a numerical value like

67, 3456, 3478, 9562, 3789, 4562, 7895, 6347, 8956, 7863, 4789, 5623, 4789

Therefore it defeats it's own definition, because infinity goes on forever. In fact, infinity divided by infinity could equal something like -5. I forget the theory, but it states that there are different levels of infinity. Like, there are moer decimal places between 1 and 2 then there are positive numbers between 1 and a billion. Therefore, between 1 and 2 there is one type of infinity and between one and god knows what there is another level of infinity. Thus making infinity divided my infinity able to equal anything.

[Varia]

What I find very interesting is that between 1 and 2, there is an infinite amount of decimals. The same with .000005 and .000006 . Infinity within infinity and then infinity within that blahblahblah.

As for the whole space ending thing, I just find it kind of hard to believe. Would there just be a big sign there that says "SORRY! YOU HAVE REACHED THE END! PLEASE GO HOME!" or maybe just a big wall. But then what if someone broke that wall? Then they fell out and saw all the other marbles and realized "Damn...I have been living my life inside a marble. I wish I could live in that marble...". I know that is just ridiculous exaggeration, but it's just for fun.

I also do not think that anything is impossible. I mean really, if there is infinity, the most impossible thing ever, surely you could be able to do a backflip off a 10 story building into your car and drive to the moon. Logical? No. Possible? Yes.

[jewpinthethird]

Nice Men In Black quote.

The idea of the universe just ending is insane...and even more insane is they idea of it going on forever. There is a theory that states that the universe is a sphere...therefore it does not have an end. But what is beyond that?

[Varia]

What? Men In Black Quote?

Hah, nevermind. The marble thing...I didn't even realize it.

[ultimategamer]

This is pertaining the first few pages. (Sorry, but I normally try to avoid the popular posts since they normally turn into flame wars.)

Isn't it possible that because of the conditions of Earth, we need certain substances, molecules, and whatnot present to habitate life. But on a planet with completely different condions, life would need to use other types of substances, molecules, and whatnot to provide for a specific type of lifeform that is suited to live with those kinds of conditions. We may not be able to "make" these types of creatures, but that is because of the environmental conditions of Earth. The organisms may die/explode when exposed to oxygen, a certain amount of gravity, a certain amount of air pressure, or maybe even a specific humidity level, so they would not be able to be created on Earth or observed on Earth. Life on Earth may require water, but maybe the life on the other planet uses something completely different...although I don't know what it would use, I don't really feel like going too deep into this stuff since it was already debated.

Infinity/infinity would equal 1, since anything divided by itself is 1, for example 12/12=1 just like 10000/10000=1 or even googleplex/googleplex=1...right?

In that post you have brought one new fact to our attention. Infinity divided by infinity could not eequal one seeing how infinity is everlasting and goes on forever, therefore, in order to KNOW that infinity divided by infinity equals one is by giving it a numerical value like

67, 3456, 3478, 9562, 3789, 4562, 7895, 6347, 8956, 7863, 4789, 5623, 4789

Therefore it defeats it's own definition, because infinity goes on forever. In fact, infinity divided by infinity could equal something like -5. I forget the theory, but it states that there are different levels of infinity. Like, there are moer decimal places between 1 and 2 then there are positive numbers between 1 and a billion. Therefore, between 1 and 2 there is one type of infinity and between one and god knows what there is another level of infinity. Thus making infinity divided my infinity able to equal anything.

Your are right scorp. In calculus (i'm getting into calc III next term) infinity/infinity is unacceptable. Thus, when we get it in an equation like, lets say Lim(X :arrow: infinity) of (x)/(e^x) normally you would get infinity over infinity. However, w/ some calculus your able to get the answer that its actually 0.

[Cenright]

ah. e^x and ln x. Those were the days of crazyness. On the inf/inf thing, i like to think of them as at differents rates of speed that they are closing in on. If they are the same rate, you get zero. I like to think of them as the relative speed concept. Then you can get numbers, even if the rate thing doens't actually work as a true theory.

[QreepyBORIS]

Infinity still isnt a fucking number.

Infinity/infinity=infinity.

I maintain.

[scorpio1690]

This is pertaining the first few pages. (Sorry, but I normally try to avoid the popular posts since they normally turn into flame wars.)

Isn't it possible that because of the conditions of Earth, we need certain substances, molecules, and whatnot present to habitate life. But on a planet with completely different condions, life would need to use other types of substances, molecules, and whatnot to provide for a specific type of lifeform that is suited to live with those kinds of conditions. We may not be able to "make" these types of creatures, but that is because of the environmental conditions of Earth. The organisms may die/explode when exposed to oxygen, a certain amount of gravity, a certain amount of air pressure, or maybe even a specific humidity level, so they would not be able to be created on Earth or observed on Earth. Life on Earth may require water, but maybe the life on the other planet uses something completely different...although I don't know what it would use, I don't really feel like going too deep into this stuff since it was already debated.

Infinity/infinity would equal 1, since anything divided by itself is 1, for example 12/12=1 just like 10000/10000=1 or even googleplex/googleplex=1...right?

In that post you have brought one new fact to our attention. Infinity divided by infinity could not eequal one seeing how infinity is everlasting and goes on forever, therefore, in order to KNOW that infinity divided by infinity equals one is by giving it a numerical value like

67, 3456, 3478, 9562, 3789, 4562, 7895, 6347, 8956, 7863, 4789, 5623, 4789

Therefore it defeats it's own definition, because infinity goes on forever. In fact, infinity divided by infinity could equal something like -5. I forget the theory, but it states that there are different levels of infinity. Like, there are moer decimal places between 1 and 2 then there are positive numbers between 1 and a billion. Therefore, between 1 and 2 there is one type of infinity and between one and god knows what there is another level of infinity. Thus making infinity divided my infinity able to equal anything.

Your are right scorp. In calculus (i'm getting into calc III next term) infinity/infinity is unacceptable. Thus, when we get it in an equation like, lets say Lim(X :arrow: infinity) of (x)/(e^x) normally you would get infinity over infinity. However, w/ some calculus your able to get the answer that its actually 0.

Well......I'm in grade 8..... I get Math 8....... That's about as far as I go..... But if I'm right I think I put it into like....understandable terms, and not all.... Physic's and shit with letters actually standing for things..... Wtf's Calculus? Like, I know what it is, just, could I have a definition of why it exists and what it's purpose is?

[QreepyBORIS]

CAlculus blows my mind...I dont understand it.

Geometry is my limits right now. And only Euclidian at that.

[Varia]

By standard mathematical terms, infinity/infinity=1

Now, I think we all know that calculus isn't normal math. But, if I am not correct, then we add another thing to the list of things we are taught in school that end up being lies. I think that's probably it. Also, do you people in calculus truly believe all those things? Or do you just accept them, because if you don't, you fail the class? Or maybe it's because you are supposed to believe what your teacher says to be right is right? Or (insert other).

[Cenright]

It is obvious you haven't taken calculus. Either that or you failed it, but I'm guessing the first.

[Varia]

I've never taken it. I was assuming and I believe i've made an ass of myself. Yeah, that's it.

[scorpio1690]

By standard mathematical terms, infinity/infinity=1

But standard mathematical terms are round and even so anyone can grasp it. "Standard" mathematical terms could make you offtrack by billions if you really think that infinity/infinity=1 when I just went through a huge explination on how it can't be one based on the different levels. Were they those alif not, alif one, and beyond? I forget.

[Varia]

It's cool, because I can be wrong and then pointed in the right direction. It's like guess and check, except there's more guessing on my part, and even more people yelling at me for saying something wrong. People learn a lot from these kind of threads. Not "wow that is so cool for 5 seconds i'll go play ps2 and forget about it forever", but more along the lines of "Wow, that is amazing. Maybe I should rethink how I percieve the world".

[jewpinthethird]

Because infinity isnt an exact "number" you cannot divide by it. Infinity is just the idea of a never ending.

I am not going to learn any math past Advance Algebra. I have no need for it, and I dont care. But I do believe caculus is the art of making sh*t up as you go along.

[scorpio1690]

Calculus

Mathematics \Math`e*mat"ics\, n. [F. math['e]matiques, pl., L. mathematica, sing., Gr. ? (sc. ?) science. See Mathematic, and -ics.] That science, or class of sciences, which treats of the exact relations existing between quantities or magnitudes, and of the methods by which, in accordance with these relations, quantities sought are deducible from other quantities known or supposed; the science of spatial and quantitative relations.

Note: Mathematics embraces three departments, namely: 1. Arithmetic. 2. Geometry, including Trigonometry and Conic Sections. 3. Analysis, in which letters are used, including Algebra, Analytical Geometry, and Calculus. Each of these divisions is divided into pure or abstract, which considers magnitude or quantity abstractly, without relation to matter; and mixed or applied, which treats of magnitude as subsisting in material bodies, and is consequently interwoven with physical considerations.

Now.... English? I understand that letters of the english and greek alphabet stand for objects of this universe like time, energy, mass, consumption etc. But how are they worked into equations. Would it be... Wait a sec...... I think I have something *ponders...Runs to get planner to find which letters equal what*

Bah, stupid planner disproving my thoughts. I was thinking physics, not calc. So.... Someone explain thsi to me, I'm to lazy to go outback into my garage and ask my bro...

Off Topic: OMG OMG OMG WE JUST STARTED.....VOLUME AND AREA OF SURFACES IN MATH SO HARD!!!!!11!1!ONE11!

[Cenright]

When you are doing infinity/infinity, you never actually have to divide them. They become a concept which makes them not even divided. The infinities just negate each other to an extent. What kind of constants you have on it is how it comes out differenty, but you never have to atually do inf/inf. There are always other factors that are in the equation. It sounds weird, and you go in thinking what you are thinking, but Calculus blows your mind and you do understand if afterward. You can't just explain it without fully getting into the math.

[scorpio1690]

Well... If you wouldn't mind, I'm writing two english papers right now but I'd still like to at least learn a bit lol. So please, if you want, go into the math, or explain what leads up to calc. or how it works or at least somethin to get me concentrating on one thing and not fuckin bouncin from physics to trig. to whatever else I think of.

Off Topic: This is probably the longest most intelligent topic I've ever seen or been a part of on FFR

[makaveli121212]

it is obvious many of you dont know a lot about calac...infinity/infinity can be any number...ANY NUMBER depending on the function...if you want to know how look up a guy named L'Hospital...i mentioned this before in this thread

[87x]

well instead of thinking infinity / infinity.. get out of that boxed frame of mind that says you can't do it because its not real.. well think of it like this..
ifinity continues on forever therefore we cant think of a nuemerical value to represent it.. so we use any value that we know infinity had to pass to get where it is going..
for infinity to be a number it has to go through all the numbers we know and keep continuing..
so lets substitue infinity with 7.. now anything divided by itself = 1.. so letting 7 represent infinity would be 7/7=1... now lets swtich that up so that 1000 represents infinity, 1000/1000=1... and you could follow that forever..
BUT WAIT.. saying infinity / infinity gives it a numerical value.. but thats not right because infinity has no numereical value.. so instead of substituting numbers we could set it up like this..
A B
Infinity / Infinity
1 / 1 = 1
2 / 2 = 2

let this chart represent a program that divides the constantly running number in column A by the constantly running number in column B... now in each column we will have 2 infinitys running forever at the same time.. while these two infinitys are running everytime they switch numbers the program will divide the numbers... and the answer will always be 1.. forever.. using this we can say that infinty/infinity = 1....

[VxDx]

here's the deal. infinity divided by infinity is meaningless. It isn't, one, zero, a constant, an irrational number, or infinity (+ or -).

the idea that makaveli is supporting is the closest to right, and 87x is right in a very specific sense. (edit: centright is right too, but since I haven't read what everyone said, I'm not going to list everyone who's been right.)

87x basically said that lim(n->inf) n/n = 1 which is true. (the limit as n approaches infinity of n divided by n)

makaveli said that it could be anything, which is true as well. take for instance

lim(x->inf) x^2/x = lim(x->inf) x = infinity
lim(x->inf) 2x/x = lim(x->inf) 2 = 2
lim(x->inf) 2/x = 0

but in each case, it can be written infinity/infinity.

[heyhey11]

ok this is my brain before entering this thread O
This is my brain now \ /
----- <---------- BOOM (sound affects)
/ \

[jimerax]

More infinity/infinity case, for example,

lim(n->inf) x^n = infinity (n=positive integer, x=positive real number),
lim(n->inf) n! = infinity,

then for arbitrary x,

lim(n->inf) x^n/n! = 0

infinity/infinity has no decisive answer, the answer is different in each case as we showed.

[87x]

87x basically said that lim(n->inf) n/n = 1 which is true. (the limit as n approaches infinity of n divided by n)

I love it when people say im right..

[makaveli121212]

yeah well you did say 2 / 2 = 2, 5 posts before me here

[Anticrombie0909]

This is completely off topic, but since I find them interesting and nobody read the thread that was intended for them, and there's no other intelligent place to put them, I figured people might want to take a break from the insanely complicated math and rock their noodles for awhile. Here's a paradox I know of.

A knight guards a path that goes over a hill and leads to a kingdom. This knight has the ability to distinguish who is telling a lie and who is being honest. If they lie, he kills them. If they are honest, he lets them pass. One day, a man walks up the hill and the knight says "Stop! Identify your reason for passing into this kingdom." The man says "I am here for you to kill me." What does the knight do? He can't kill him, because he was telling the truth. But if he lets him pass then the man will have been lying, so he should kill him, but he was telling the truth in the first place. See if you can figure it out.

Here's another one that isn't a paradox because it has an answer, but it took me a minute to figure out.

There is a fork in the road. One way leads to Truth Town, where everyone tells the truth, and one leads to Liar Town, where everybody lies. You come to the fork and stop to think. You want to get to Truth Town, but you don't know which way it is. You see a local and decide to ask for directions to truth town. But you can't tell which town they are from, and if they are from Liar Town, they will lie. What can you ask the local so that no matter what town he is from, he will always tell you where Truth Town is?

[scorpio1690]

This is completely off topic, but since I find them interesting and nobody read the thread that was intended for them, and there's no other intelligent place to put them, I figured people might want to take a break from the insanely complicated math and rock their noodles for awhile. Here's a paradox I know of.

A knight guards a path that goes over a hill and leads to a kingdom. This knight has the ability to distinguish who is telling a lie and who is being honest. If they lie, he kills them. If they are honest, he lets them pass. One day, a man walks up the hill and the knight says "Stop! Identify your reason for passing into this kingdom." The man says "I am here for you to kill me." What does the knight do? He can't kill him, because he was telling the truth. But if he lets him pass then the man will have been lying, so he should kill him, but he was telling the truth in the first place. See if you can figure it out.

Here's another one that isn't a paradox because it has an answer, but it took me a minute to figure out.

There is a fork in the road. One way leads to Truth Town, where everyone tells the truth, and one leads to Liar Town, where everybody lies. You come to the fork and stop to think. You want to get to Truth Town, but you don't know which way it is. You see a local and decide to ask for directions to truth town. But you can't tell which town they are from, and if they are from Liar Town, they will lie. What can you ask the local so that no matter what town he is from, he will always tell you where Truth Town is?

For the first one, the man could have been lying by saying he;s there to be killed. And the second one, I use to know the answer, but then forgot. You shoot the man and take the 50-50 chance :)

[jpyb007]

That's possible...but then the knight would have to kill him and what the person said would become true, then the knight would have to let the dead body pass since what the person said would become true.

The second one's pretty simple...you ask them what town they came from...the liar would point to Truth and the person from Truth would point to Truth.

[scorpio1690]

The second one's pretty simple...you ask them what town they came from...the liar would point to Truth and the person from Truth would point to Truth.

Then you shoot him for making you think.

[jpyb007]

Sounds good...then you go to Truth since the truth almost always sucks, then shoot the people of Truth.

[lightdarkness]

is it weird i dont know what the fuck is going on?
what are you guys smokeing
i thought infinity was a little kids word meaning
Billy:"when i grow up i want a million billion dollars"
Jonny: "Yeah, well i want an infinity dollars"
Billy:"well i want an infinity plus 1"
Jonny: "i want an infinity times infinity"
Billy:"Damn, im a failur, gg, k thx"

[jpyb007]

Infinity is a concept of a "never-ending number", mostly thought as too big a number to reach by counting or any mathematical process. There is no end to infinity, I'm pretty sure about that, but this is all just a bunch of stuff to make people think. Don't let it bother you lightdarkness.

This is confusing...how can 2 / 2 = 2? (See Makavelis post...then the post that reffers to)

[Falcon]

for anti's first riddle: the knight kills him. if the man is lying, then the knight would kill him regardless. if the man is telling the truth, then the knight kills him because that is truthfully the reason that he is there, to be killed.

as for infinity, i hate calculus. i've got to take my second course in it next semester, and i'm not thrilled.

logically, any number divided by itself is 1, as 87x stated (except of course 0/0). the concept of infinity in the universe is beyond mine, and i dare say any, of our minds to logically comprehend and break down into something that makes sense. the thought that something could go forever without ever returning to its starting place is too abstract for my mind to make sense of. however, in that case, where would space end? and when it ends, what would happen? is there pure nothingness? or would you eventually return to your starting place, as if the universe is a giant sphere? food for thought, because i dont know the answers... at least not without devoting way too much time to thinkin about this and way too little time studying for my exams.

also, i didnt read all 10 pages. sorry if i repeated anything.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

y'all have probably heard this "googleplex" times over, but a monster is going to kill a man (there is no way to escape). The monster wants the man to tell a story before he eats him, so what does the man say?

[Falcon]

nothing.

and wholly crap. i just read/skimmed the majority of this thread. i really wanted to get some studying done tonight...

lets see. Moogy, how can you define "nothing"? if you define it, it is obviously something. therefore, we are all overwhelmed by something that amounts to nothing, which is something. and there is no real purpose in saying that we are all overwhelmed by nothing and therefore dont matter, because if that was true then we would have no purpose to live. therefore, why would we continue to? we would have no motivation to live or do anything at all, including reproduce, because it would be meaningless. i think this is why the vast majority of the public chooses not to think about subjects such as this.

as far as what, 6 or 7 pages ago, the big bang theory cannot be true. if it were, where did the initial matter come from that came together to cause the big bang? also, this theory goes completely against the... i think its the 3rd... law of thermodynamics, which says that the universe is in a constant state of decay, regardless of time (entropy). now, wouldnt the big bang theory be going completely against that? let me emphasize: big bang theory and the laws of thermodynamics. laws cannot be broken. period. and, saying that there was matter that caused the big bang, when did it come about? where did it come from? this goes back to the theory of infinity, that space has always been here and will always be here, at least until entropy takes over and destroys it. now, this previous statement makes no sense to me. everything must have an origin. at this point... i would get into a religious debate. but i'm gonna steer away from that.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Falcon said "nothing"
if that's directed towards my post, nope doesn't work (there's a better answer)

[heyhey11]

tell him a really really long story until he either a) goes into hibernation or b) dies

[87x]

a monster is going to kill a man (there is no way to escape). The monster wants the man to tell a story before he eats him, so what does the man say?

Say this "Touch me you're gay" .. the monster doesn't want to be gay.. so it runs away..

[Falcon]

i maintain my response of saying nothing, or not telling a story at all. if you dont tell him a story, he cant/wont eat you. but i'd be interested in hearing your response.

meanwhile... back on, or off, topic. i can tell anymore. will someone please respond to all that crap i posted at the top of the page?

[87x]

well i jsut skimmed through what you wrote.. and i really cont contradict anything that you said.. it seems pretty solid.. I mean i really don't know as much as the other people on this site, but I personally can't say anyhting.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

ok, you tell him this story (cuz it would last forever):
Once upon a time there was a man who was walking through the woods and then a monster grabbed him and brought him into a cave. The monster was going to eat the man, but first he requested to hear a story from the man...so the man told a story that went something like this:

Once upon a time there was a man who was walking through the woods and then a monster grabbed him and brought him into a cave. The monster was going to eat the man, but first he requested to hear a story from the man...so the man told a story that went something like this:

Once upon a time there was a man who was walking through the woods and then a monster grabbed him and brought him into a cave. The monster was going to eat the man, but first he requested to hear a story from the man...so the man told a story that went something like this:

[Cenright]

Yes, and it keeps going and going until the monster gets so annoyed and mad after about the 10th time that he slams his fist down on the man, crushing every bone in his body.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Yes, and it keeps going and going until the monster gets so annoyed and mad after about the 10th time that he slams his fist down on the man, crushing every bone in his body.

however, as the monster's fist comes down, the man springs to his feet, jumping sideways, does a matrix move and picks up a knife, and throws it at the monsters head as the monster swings at him a second time...kthllp dead

i will provide an illustration in the near future

[Cenright]

Not needed. I'm a very spacial person.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Not needed. I'm a very spacial person.
too bad, im bored:

[87x]

wow.. looks like cow shit fighting someone from the blue man group.. but.. good job..

[Cenright]

That was pretty good. Synth should hire you as a graphics artist.

[Anticrombie0909]

Lol nice pic, Lupin. Thought about going into art? It'd sell. I've seen some of the shit out there sell for hundreds of thousands, when its nothing more than scribbles or blobs. Make a few of those, fake your own death, you'll be a millionaire.

[scorpio1690]

fake your own death

You can do that just for the hell of it, people freak out :D

Make this back on topic, this is a good thread.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

fake my own death? like those who say they are going to "commit suicide" online?...yeah that's how I'll fake my death

[Falcon]

for the love of dead bears, please, someone respond to what i said... if not for me, to save this thread. and 87x, thanks, it was a valient effort.

[scorpio1690]

for the love of dead bears, please, someone respond to what i said... if not for me, to save this thread. and 87x, thanks, it was a valient effort.

Dead bears..Hehehe, I gotta write that one down. Anyways, ya, basically everything you said there sums up this thread, unless we go into religious things, but then jewpin would get blamed for shooting someone or something....

[jewpinthethird]

Faclon, these are questions that may never be answered. I am going to allow a some religion slip by ONLY BECAUSE this is a topic in which no one can be really offened.

Now, this is not meant to offened anyone in anyway, but I have read Genesis. "In the beginning, God created heaven and earth....etc". Now, what happened before God created Heaven and Earth? And what created God being that God is the creator of all. As in everything living and non-living, God too is made up of matter.

Now, the only explanation I can think of that would solve this, is that God is not a being of this dimension. Or maybe even a parallel universe. Again, if there was nothing before God, then it all comes back to the whole "infinity" deal.

Man, it is hard keeping my religious questions non-offensive....there is so much more that I want to say....

[87x]

Dude.. just go with it.. if people get offended its there fault not yours..

Heres what religion is to me... a bed time story... it ranks right up there with mother goose.. Religion (and when i say this i'm refering to christianity) sounds like something that someone made up to keep there kid in check....

KID: How did we get here?
MOM: umm.. God made us.. *confused look*
KID: Whats a god?
MOM: It is the thing that made up this place that we live and the earth that out home is on..
KID: Well.. im an idiot.. and because my mom said it, it must be true..

no.. Believing religion just lets you feel better when your about to die..

Dieing person who beliefs in religion: Im going to a better place

Dieing person who doesn't believe: ............

They got nothing to say.. nothing to look forward too.. so why not believe in something that can't be proved... might as well right??.. lets see.. not believe and there be a heaven so you can rot all of eternity in hell.. or believe because you got nothing better to do and get lucky to spend the rest of eternity in heaven....

I'm just taking my chances i guess.... It's easier to believe in evolution because stuff can be explained with facts.. not theorized by some guy who wrote a book and called it the bible..

And i got a question to you religious people.. if god was perfect.. and he created us in his own image.. why in the hell are we so fragile??.. i mean.. i stub my toe and it breaks.. i get up too quick and i pass out.. this doesn't sound like a perfect being to me.. there are plenty of other flaws in the human body as well.. but i would like to go onto animals instead..

Animals.. specifically the dolphin.. DID YOU KNOW that dolphins have the skeletal structure of a pelvic girdle and in some cases still a fermur bone is present in the fin? (http://library.thinkquest.org/17963/skeletal-structure.html#flukes --- look at the section on hind limbs).. and also DID YOU KNOW the dolphin has two stomachs? one of which they don't use.. weird.. god is perfect.. so making a design flaw in an animal isn't possible.. SO what in the hell is that second stomach for??.. Another thing before i get burned at the stake... Why in the hell would god create an animal just for it to go extinct sometime down the future??.. thats not very smart.. it would of saved him time to just skip over all the animals ( by animals i mean all 5 kingdoms of life) that were going to go extinct, he must of known they were going to go extinct, he is god by the way..

alright im done for now..

[Falcon]

meh, pm me. i'll give you my best shots at answers.

as far as i understand your questions, being a christian myself, i answer them with faith, which is a questionable answer in itself. before heaven and earth, God was. God was not created, he just is. your explanation that God is not confined to this universe or our laws and therefore could be eternal. as i've always had it explained to me, God was, is, and always will be, kindof like a seemless ring, no beginning and no end. in this sense, i truly dont believe that the human mind can comprehend infinity.

to be honest, unless you take alot on faith (which i see as the only answer, seeing that science has no explanation and considering that thats what i base many of my arguments on) you will think what i just said is complete crap. if you have a better explanation, throw it at me.

jewpin... edit this if you need to, and pm me if you want.

edit for 87x: i wish i had answers to all of your questions. as far as why humans are frail, i would blame (according to the bible) the fall of man in the garden of eden. all was perfect before then, and it just got worse afterwards. also... i wish i were taking hebrew so i could tell you exactly what the hebrew means by "image", because i suspect that it means in his appearance... because if we were just like him we would be gods ourselves (as the mormons believe we will become). as far as the animals, i dont know exactly. why have animals gone extinct? well, for a vast majority of the animals that have gone extinct you could blame humans. deforestation, overpredation, all that good stuff. the dinosaurs? i dont know. as far as the two stomachs thing, the appendix in humans and all of that jazz, all i can say is that microevolution obviously takes place. its obvious as you look at the minor changes that happen in different generations of certain species, darwins finches for example. perhaps those stomachs in the dolphins were initially used, and became unneeded. why didnt God make them that way to begin with? well, i would say because conditions have changed over the years and generations of dolphins. the amount of food has changed, the amount of food needed to sustain their metabolism has changed, i dont know. thats my best guess. like i said, to be a religious person you have to take a good deal on faith. however, to not be a religious person, you have to take a great deal more on faith. believing abstract ideas of science, or not believing anything at all. though 87x may take no comfort from it, i take a great deal of comfort knowing that if i die and i'm right, i'm goin to heaven, and if i'm wrong, then i'll die nonetheless and i will have lived a happier life because i had religion to bank on when nothing else was there for me. as far as the bible, its true. i'll tell you my justifications later, if anyone wants to know. i'm goin to bed now. i'm hopin for some good responses by sometime tomorrow... peace.

[87x]

Im just going to quote cause its faster.. just so everyone knows im quotting falcon for all of these...

why humans are frail, i would blame (according to the bible) the fall of man in the garden of eden. all was perfect before then, and it just got worse afterwards.

I don't remember is saying anything about being "perfect" for adam and eve... i just remember they were naked.. then ate some fruit because the snake with legs (iguana) told them too.. so after they did god told them they had to wear clothes and then took the snakes legs away from him so he would have to slither on his stomach everywhere for the rest of time..

i wish i were taking hebrew so i could tell you exactly what the hebrew means by "image", because i suspect that it means in his appearance... because if we were just like him we would be gods ourselves (as the mormons believe we will become)

Well... i was talking about in his own image as in appearance... and another thing on that.. why are there black/asain/indians/whites and everyother ethnic group i left out... "made in his apperance" indians and blacks don't look the same.... neither do asains and whites.. unless they are talking about physical body structure.. but then there would be a problem with the midgets and/or anyone else that an apperance altering disease..

as far as the animals, i dont know exactly. why have animals gone extinct? well, for a vast majority of the animals that have gone extinct you could blame humans. deforestation, overpredation, all that good stuff

Overpredation??.. you would think god would know how to balance out the ecosystems a little better...

as far as the two stomachs thing, the appendix in humans and all of that jazz, all i can say is that microevolution obviously takes place. its obvious as you look at the minor changes that happen in different generations of certain species, darwins finches for example. perhaps those stomachs in the dolphins were initially used, and became unneeded. why didnt God make them that way to begin with? well, i would say because conditions have changed over the years and generations of dolphins. the amount of food has changed, the amount of food needed to sustain their metabolism has changed, i dont know. thats my best guess

Yea.. well heres my best guess... follow the chart
Amino acids -> DNA -> Single Celled -> Multi Cellular (sp?) -> Plants
^---> Single Celled ^--> Animals -V
V---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V->Fish -> fish
V->Amphibious Bugs -> Regular Bugs
>->Amphibians -> Reptiles
^->Dynapsids -> Gators/Lizards
- ^->Dinosaurs -> Birds
-->Synapsids ->Mammals -> Great Apes -> Prime Apes -> Humans

Yea.. im sure yall can figure that out.. Evolution baby.. the reason we are here today..

though 87x may take no comfort from it,

I take comfort knowing that when i die, well.. i dont know what will happen.. people say that when you die your brain stire fires its nerve pulses for 15 seconds.. and while sleeping you know that 15 secs can seem like an eternity.. so thats probably the reviewing of there life sensation people always talk about getting right before they die or think they are about to die or come back from the dead
(no im not talking about zombies, im talking about when you flat line for like 10 seconds.. then come back).. but i can't really say whats comming for me in death, because the more you think about the more confused you get... try it..

[Anticrombie0909]

I don't believe in heaven or hell. I believe that when you die, your brain stops working, you're done. Gone. If you think about it, there's no logical reason for you to have a 'soul' or whatever you want to call it.

[makaveli121212]

1) I don't remember is saying anything about being "perfect" for adam and eve... i just remember they were naked.. then ate some fruit because the snake with legs (iguana) told them too.. so after they did god told them they had to wear clothes and then took the snakes legs away from him so he would have to slither on his stomach everywhere for the rest of time..

2) Well... i was talking about in his own image as in appearance... and another thing on that.. why are there black/asain/indians/whites and everyother ethnic group i left out... "made in his apperance" indians and blacks don't look the same.... neither do asains and whites.. unless they are talking about physical body structure.. but then there would be a problem with the midgets and/or anyone else that an apperance altering disease..

3) Overpredation??.. you would think god would know how to balance out the ecosystems a little better...

4) Yea.. well heres my best guess... follow the chart
Amino acids -> DNA -> Single Celled -> Multi Cellular (sp?) -> Plants
^---> Single Celled ^--> Animals -V
V---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V->Fish -> fish
V->Amphibious Bugs -> Regular Bugs
>->Amphibians -> Reptiles
^->Dynapsids -> Gators/Lizards
- ^->Dinosaurs -> Birds
-->Synapsids ->Mammals -> Great Apes -> Prime Apes -> Humans

Yea.. im sure yall can figure that out.. Evolution baby.. the reason we are here today..

5) I take comfort knowing that when i die, well.. i dont know what will happen.. people say that when you die your brain stire fires its nerve pulses for 15 seconds.. and while sleeping you know that 15 secs can seem like an eternity.. so thats probably the reviewing of there life sensation people always talk about getting right before they die or think they are about to die or come back from the dead
(no im not talking about zombies, im talking about when you flat line for like 10 seconds.. then come back).. but i can't really say whats comming for me in death, because the more you think about the more confused you get... try it..

ok here i go...

1) yes actually things were perfect, there was no death or disease and there was no sin...yet, until they ate the fruit...then common feelings like shame (nakedness) and so on came to be

2) i think humans look more like god than a owl...i think thats the point...the bible isnt always to be taken literally, especially the old testament...if god were human, which he was, he would be a primate, homsapien

3) God knows everything

4) ok, well thats is all based on theory...amino acids cannot just form DNA, plus the first genetic material on the planet was RNA, becuase it is so much more simple...and DNA cant just make cells

5) only if you try it first

btw i do not consider my self a very religous person, so matbe im worng on some of those issues, but i answered to the best of my knowledge

[Lupin_the_3rd]

I myself consider a majority of the old testament bs, however:

Can you prove that god doesn't exist in any way?no
Can you prove that god does exist in any way?no
could god have set up the world like a clock (age of reason) and let it tick and step away? yes

[VxDx]

Here's the thing...I'm agnostic. I don't believe a god if there was one would be able to be proven or disproven. As such, I live my life as though there were no god. The problem with the arguement either for or against god is that by the other-worldly nature of god himself, no worldly proof against him can be used. Being human, the only disproof of god would be inherantly worldly. The same goes for any proof of god's existance. Here's an example.

If god is the creator, then what created god?
God existed and will exist forever.
But that is impossible.
God is not based in the rules of this world (hahaha sounds like the matrix).


Personally, the best disproof of a god that I can offer is that people having free will and god being omniscient together are a juxtaposition.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

Here's the thing...I'm agnostic. I don't believe a god if there was one would be able to be proven or disproven. As such, I live my life as though there were no god. The problem with the arguement either for or against god is that by the other-worldly nature of god himself, no worldly proof against him can be used. Being human, the only disproof of god would be inherantly worldly. The same goes for any proof of god's existance. Here's an example.

If god is the creator, then what created god?
God existed and will exist forever.
But that is impossible.
God is not based in the rules of this world (hahaha sounds like the matrix).


Personally, the best disproof of a god that I can offer is that people having free will and god being omniscient together are a juxtaposition.

the Matrix is one of the most religous based movies (if you are sophisticated enough to interpret it)

[hydrojakep]

you people are all so smart

[Anticrombie0909]

See, the hardest part about debating the existance of god is that the method for the debates cancel each other out. If you follow the scientific route, evidence shows that there is no god. But try to point this out to one who believes, and they will tell you Faith is all that god needs to function.

Another amusing quote that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has to say on the subject (while incorporating the subject of the Babel fish, a fish that translates all languages when inserted into the ear...don't ask, pay attention to the bolded bit).

The Babel fish, is small yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy recieved not from its own carrier but from those around it...The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now, it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistance of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead givaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED. "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that." And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. "Oh, that was easy." Says Man and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Again, its all for comedic effect, but still...

Damn, whoever would have thought such a thinker would come from a radio comedy show turned book?

[Strange_Will]

well tempature depends i mean, on this planet animals can live from like -whatever tempature polarbears live in to the +100 that snakes live in.....

why cant they be evolved for a 200 degree difference?

i mean we dont have proof you cant....

really somewhere there has to be life, just somewhere, why would we get the universe to ourselves....

even plants, not just other living breating creatures.....

[jewpinthethird]

Neither religion, nor Science is perfect. We can all agree on that. Both take a create deal of faith.

[Cenright]

This is why I tried to keep religion out of it.

We can all debate religion and no one is going to concede without a whole lot of biblical talk. Even then you might not get anywhere. For scientific theories, you need to use science only, because not everyone belives the bible to be a reliable source, and there are many interpretations of it. Whether those be wrong or right, you still have trouble arguing against it. I am a very religous person, but the way I see the bible is very different than more other people.

Try to keep it to science only please, because you wont get very far with the bible.

[Moogy]

http://babelfish.altavista.com


















wee

[Cenright]

Yeah I have seen that.

[jewpinthethird]

I know, I should have not allowed it...my bad. Anyways, this belongs in the new forum. W00t.

[Lupin_the_3rd]

whoa crazy, critical thinking forum

[VxDx]

I don't know that making a new forum for this was the best idea. I know I will be less inclined to read something in the critical thinking forum...

[scorpio1690]

http://babelfish.altavista.com


















wee


I use that for my french homework.

But, I seriously think that either everything in the bible really happened, OR someone was on something seriously fucked up.

How would it be that science is not perfect? Humans created science to explain what we did not know right? So basically, it was all in vain?

Religion. Now that we're allowed to discuss this, why are we only discussing the christianic version of how we all came to be? I mean... Hmmmm... If it really was just this one "God" that created us, why are their other religions? If the belief is so strong then why doesn't everyone believe? So... Well, in my mind I've just ruled out religion, unless they all rooted together some how.

So back to the infinite topic. I know that no one can fully comprehend this, but.... If there really was another planet infinite lightyears away, and we were thinking about it, would we really be thinking about that planet? Hmmm... It's really hard to explain what I'm thinking on a fucking forum.... Ummm.... K, think if there IS another planet out there somewhere with life right? Now, if we think about it, would we really be thinking about it in the present? I mean, do thoughts travel at a speed in your mind? So are we like... Really thinking what we think we're thinking?

Ok.... I couldn't really explain what I was thinking about.... But if you can understand what I was trying to say please respond...

[IAMTHEEVILBEAN]

http://babelfish.altavista.com


















wee


I use that for my french homework.

But, I seriously think that either everything in the bible really happened, OR someone was on something seriously #$*#ed up.

How would it be that science is not perfect? Humans created science to explain what we did not know right? So basically, it was all in vain?

Religion. Now that we're allowed to discuss this, why are we only discussing the christianic version of how we all came to be? I mean... Hmmmm... If it really was just this one "God" that created us, why are their other religions? If the belief is so strong then why doesn't everyone believe? So... Well, in my mind I've just ruled out religion, unless they all rooted together some how.

So back to the infinite topic. I know that no one can fully comprehend this, but.... If there really was another planet infinite lightyears away, and we were thinking about it, would we really be thinking about that planet? Hmmm... It's really hard to explain what I'm thinking on a #$#ing forum.... Ummm.... K, think if there IS another planet out there somewhere with life right? Now, if we think about it, would we really be thinking about it in the present? I mean, do thoughts travel at a speed in your mind? So are we like... Really thinking what we think we're thinking?

Ok.... I couldn't really explain what I was thinking about.... But if you can understand what I was trying to say please respond...


Make a religion thread if you want people to respond

[Anticrombie0909]

Not really, bean. This thread...didn't start out to be religion, but its all about how the universe was created, so it kinda has to be. Anyway, this topic includes religious discussion, so yeah.

Ummm.... K, think if there IS another planet out there somewhere with life right? Now, if we think about it, would we really be thinking about it in the present? I mean, do thoughts travel at a speed in your mind? So are we like... Really thinking what we think we're thinking?

Well, thanks for telling us what you mean. It'd have been really annoying if you were ambiguous about it.
Heh, I get what you're saying. But at the same time...I don't really. Thoughts arn't transmitted through space, they're just in our own heads. So how could that apply to infinite worlds? You need to read Ender's Game.

[Falcon]

well, lemme give a few of these a shot.

Yea.. well heres my best guess... follow the chart
Amino acids -> DNA -> Single Celled -> Multi Cellular (sp?) -> Plants
^---> Single Celled ^--> Animals -V
V---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V->Fish -> fish
V->Amphibious Bugs -> Regular Bugs
>->Amphibians -> Reptiles
^->Dynapsids -> Gators/Lizards
- ^->Dinosaurs -> Birds
-->Synapsids ->Mammals -> Great Apes -> Prime Apes -> Humans

Yea.. im sure yall can figure that out.. Evolution baby.. the reason we are here today..

as far as the early stages of evolution and the creation of amino acids... this has never been duplicated, which is a pivotal part of proving a scientific theory. there was a scientist who attempted this (if dont remember his name) and who actually got amino acids to be produced. however, the amino acids that were produced were dead amino acids, meaning that they are unable to produce life. and these were under the exact conditions of early earth.

Personally, the best disproof of a god that I can offer is that people having free will and god being omniscient together are a juxtaposition.
free will and omniscience are two things that alot of people, especially christians, misunderstand. as i understand it, humans do have free will. we make our own decisions, we choose the good or the bad choice in each situation, etc... but God knows what we will choose in the end and how things will turn out. however, he doesnt control it. he simply knows about it. confusing? yes.

the Matrix is one of the most religous based movies (if you are sophisticated enough to interpret it)
the matrix was a conglomeration of a whole bunch of different religions (christianity, buddhism, hinduism, etc). very deep movie, actually. at least the first one...


The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead givaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED. "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that." And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

its not so much that God refuses to show us that he exists. in fact, i'd say there is a good amount of evidence that shows that God does exist, your babel fish for example. again, back to the free will thing, we would not have free will if God came out and said "I AM GOD. WORSHIP ME." he gives us the free choice to observe everything around us, weigh the options, and make our own decisions. i see this babel fish, as well as other examples, as proof that God exists rather than a disproof.


Religion. Now that we're allowed to discuss this, why are we only discussing the christianic version of how we all came to be? I mean... Hmmmm... If it really was just this one "God" that created us, why are their other religions? If the belief is so strong then why doesn't everyone believe? So... Well, in my mind I've just ruled out religion, unless they all rooted together some how.

i hate to keep reverting to this free will thing... but thats part of it. also, as humans, we ourselves often take things that we like about something, twist them a little, and make our own version that we like. thats how alot of religions have started... the angelican (i THINK, whichever church it was that the king of england decided to make because he was pissed about not being able to divorce his wife) for example. this is a whole different discussion... maybe i'll do this later.

[87x]

as humans, we ourselves often take things that we like about something, twist them a little, and make our own version that we like. thats how alot of religions have started

Hince. christianity.. but it didn't come from other religions.. it came from a conglameration of childen stories used to easily describe how things came to be.. and gives us a reason not to act like shit heads our whole life, because it puts fear in our heart about the after life (if there is one)

there was a scientist who attempted this (if dont remember his name) and who actually got amino acids to be produced. however, the amino acids that were produced were dead amino acids, meaning that they are unable to produce life. and these were under the exact conditions of early earth.

This experiment was done over a life time of work (lets give it 70 years although it wasn;t nearly that long).. the earth had over 4 billion years to get it right.. im positive that it was able to creat living Amino acids..

[quote="makaveli121212"]as humans, we ourselves often take things that we like about something, twist them a little, and make our own version that we like. thats how alot of religions have started

Hince. christianity.. but it didn't come from other religions.. it came from a conglameration of childen stories used to easily describe how things came to be.. and gives us a reason not to act like shit heads our whole life, because it puts fear in our heart about the after life (if there is one)

there was a scientist who attempted this (if dont remember his name) and who actually got amino acids to be produced. however, the amino acids that were produced were dead amino acids, meaning that they are unable to produce life. and these were under the exact conditions of early earth.

This experiment was done over a life time of work (lets give it 70 years although it wasn;t nearly that long).. the earth had over 4 billion years to get it right.. im positive that it was able to creat living Amino acids..

[quote="makaveli121212"]as humans, we ourselves often take things that we like about something, twist them a little, and make our own version that we like. thats how alot of religions have started

Hince. christianity.. but it didn't come from other religions.. it came from a conglameration of childen stories used to easily describe how things came to be.. and gives us a reason not to act like shit heads our whole life, because it puts fear in our heart about the after life (if there is one)

there was a scientist who attempted this (if dont remember his name) and who actually got amino acids to be produced. however, the amino acids that were produced were dead amino acids, meaning that they are unable to produce life. and these were under the exact conditions of early earth.

This experiment was done over a life time of work (lets give it 70 years although it wasn;t nearly that long).. the earth had over 4 billion years to get it right.. im positive that it was able to creat living Amino acids..

1) yes actually things were perfect, there was no death or disease and there was no sin...yet, until they ate the fruit...then common feelings like shame (nakedness) and so on came to be

There is no "proof" in bible or in science to say that.. also... they ate the fruit the first day of being creates )as i remember) of course there was no death or disease yet.. but if they hadn't of ate the fruit would life today be perfect? people not being abel to get disease?? no sin.. i doubt it.. and this is all based on the assumption that this all actually happened..

amino acids cannot just form DNA, plus the first genetic material on the planet was RNA, becuase it is so much more simple...and DNA cant just make cells

no matter which is formed first, over time they both would of been present.. the amino acids are the building blocks of DNA.. so if two amino acids were to come together somehow yo would have a trait.. something VERY simple.. but a trait.. which would form into a cell.. which takes you to single celled organisms... add the mutation and adaptation theory's and you have evolution..

Side comments:
I agree argueing about this is trivial.. but i don't consider this an arguement.. im not trying to pursuade anyone to just over to the evolution side of the line.. and i hope no one is trying to do that vice versa.. im just saying what i think... people contradict me with other beliefs.. so i reitterate on my beliefs with more examples and more logic behind the thoughts.. so i can talk/read about this all day and not get bored, because i love hearing what people have to say about where they came from..

[RedNovember]

ok here it is. You say that there are infinte worlds. Since all can't have life, you say there are finite number of life supporting worlds. Let's think about this.
Since there are infinite planets, it therefore follows that since any subtraction from infinity is infinity, there are infinte number of life supporting planets.
Infinite never changes. It is the only quantity to never change.

[Anticrombie0909]

But technically, infinite isn't a quantity, either. It should be treated existentially, more of a forumula than anything else, since it's not a true number.

[makaveli121212]

1) yes actually things were perfect, there was no death or disease and there was no sin...yet, until they ate the fruit...then common feelings like shame (nakedness) and so on came to be

There is no "proof" in bible or in science to say that.. also... they ate the fruit the first day of being creates )as i remember) of course there was no death or disease yet.. but if they hadn't of ate the fruit would life today be perfect? people not being abel to get disease?? no sin.. i doubt it.. and this is all based on the assumption that this all actually happened..

amino acids cannot just form DNA, plus the first genetic material on the planet was RNA, becuase it is so much more simple...and DNA cant just make cells

no matter which is formed first, over time they both would of been present.. the amino acids are the building blocks of DNA.. so if two amino acids were to come together somehow yo would have a trait.. something VERY simple.. but a trait.. which would form into a cell.. which takes you to single celled organisms... add the mutation and adaptation theory's and you have evolution..


if you dont believe the bible then fine, i guess i cant prove it...but who can prove the bible is true...

two amino acids do not make a trait...they are a base pair that would code for a trait...there is nothing that is 1 base pair long that codes for a triat...plus what would do the translation...there is no polymerase around...DNA and RNA do not make cells...also there is no "proof" as you call it that life on this planet started like that...i would believe more in the Panspermial theory myself, but i wont get into it...

to centright...you say religion has many different interpretations, well so does science...science is in no way indisbutable

to falcon...i believe the guys who did those experiments were Miller and Fox...actually i am pretty damn sure...also King Henry the 8th was trying to break away from the Catholic church so he could form the Anglican church, so he could get a divorce...i think he had 6 overall

[87x]

well maka.. when i was talkin about the Amino acids comming together to form a trait.. i really idnt mean "two come together"... i was talking in basis.. i was hopeing for people to understand my logic and realize that i was talking about more than just one pair.. and the base pairs you are talking about are ATGC.. Atonine, Tyhmine, Guanine, and Cytocine (someone tell me if those are right.. i might be thinking about RNA)... well anyway you look at it.. things don't magically appear, unless you don't believe in reason (IE. believe in religion)..

[makaveli121212]

why shoot down religion...where did amino acids magically appear out of no where...btw it is Adenine and the others are right...and yes that is what im talking about...did you get the part when i said DNA doesnt make cells...and the base pairs in RNA are the same except instead of Thymine it has Urasil...also for a base pair to be made each base needs a phosphate and a sugar group...i dont know if there was much PO4 to go around in the early days of the earth..ill find out later...you know you have this grudge against me i dont know why, but it seems you dont know to well what you are talking about when it comes to DNA RNA and the beginnings of life on earth, so if i were you id stop making a fool of myself

[RageVI]

I'd just like to say something about the first quote. I still think it's very cool, and very interesting, but flawed in my opinion.

Okay, so there are infinite planets. Only some of them are inhabited. There would be some fraction of inhabited vs. uninhabited planets. It doesnt matter how small this fraction is (like 1/1000000000000000000000000), but any fraction of infinity is still infinity, meaning there would be an infinite population.

This goes back to a discussion we had in AP Calculus.

Let's say on a line graph.
There are points plotted on 1, 2, and 3

There are an infinite amount of points that you could place between 1 and 2 (like 1.1, 1.01, 1.001, etc.). This is also true with 2 to 3 (2.01, 2.001, etc.)

But what about from 1 to 3? There still is an infinite amount of points you could place in there, but isnt there more that you could place than in the smaller increments? After all, it goes from 1 all the way to 3

In other words, could one infinity be larger than another?

[jewpinthethird]

UGH...MY BRAIN...IT IS SO FULL OF UNANSWERED QUESTIONS...UGH!!!

[scorpio1690]

I'd just like to say something about the first quote. I still think it's very cool, and very interesting, but flawed in my opinion.

Okay, so there are infinite planets. Only some of them are inhabited. There would be some fraction of inhabited vs. uninhabited planets. It doesnt matter how small this fraction is (like 1/1000000000000000000000000), but any fraction of infinity is still infinity, meaning there would be an infinite population.

This goes back to a discussion we had in AP Calculus.

Let's say on a line graph.
There are points plotted on 1, 2, and 3

There are an infinite amount of points that you could place between 1 and 2 (like 1.1, 1.01, 1.001, etc.). This is also true with 2 to 3 (2.01, 2.001, etc.)

But what about from 1 to 3? There still is an infinite amount of points you could place in there, but isnt there more that you could place than in the smaller increments? After all, it goes from 1 all the way to 3

In other words, could one infinity be larger than another?

This is pertaining the first few pages. (Sorry, but I normally try to avoid the popular posts since they normally turn into flame wars.)

Isn't it possible that because of the conditions of Earth, we need certain substances, molecules, and whatnot present to habitate life. But on a planet with completely different condions, life would need to use other types of substances, molecules, and whatnot to provide for a specific type of lifeform that is suited to live with those kinds of conditions. We may not be able to "make" these types of creatures, but that is because of the environmental conditions of Earth. The organisms may die/explode when exposed to oxygen, a certain amount of gravity, a certain amount of air pressure, or maybe even a specific humidity level, so they would not be able to be created on Earth or observed on Earth. Life on Earth may require water, but maybe the life on the other planet uses something completely different...although I don't know what it would use, I don't really feel like going too deep into this stuff since it was already debated.

Infinity/infinity would equal 1, since anything divided by itself is 1, for example 12/12=1 just like 10000/10000=1 or even googleplex/googleplex=1...right?

In that post you have brought one new fact to our attention. Infinity divided by infinity could not eequal one seeing how infinity is everlasting and goes on forever, therefore, in order to KNOW that infinity divided by infinity equals one is by giving it a numerical value like

67, 3456, 3478, 9562, 3789, 4562, 7895, 6347, 8956, 7863, 4789, 5623, 4789

Therefore it defeats it's own definition, because infinity goes on forever. In fact, infinity divided by infinity could equal something like -5. I forget the theory, but it states that there are different levels of infinity. Like, there are moer decimal places between 1 and 2 then there are positive numbers between 1 and a billion. Therefore, between 1 and 2 there is one type of infinity and between one and god knows what there is another level of infinity. Thus making infinity divided my infinity able to equal anything.

[87x]

i dont feel like quoting.. but this is in response to maka..

Im not shooting anything down... Im simply saying that in religion a lot of stuff just happens.. which isn't really possible.. this all goes back to faith.. you can't prove a religion to be correct.. same as you can't prove science to be incorrect... I like knowing the who, what, when, where, why, and how... i want to know why we are here.. [i]what[/] did we come from/what made us.. and you know what.. I would convert to christianity if god came down and just made himself present.. because that would give me the answers i needed to know.. but just having faith in something that can't even be remotely proved is just not for me..

Amino acids appeared out of no where... i agree... evoltuon theory doesn't all the answers either (dont know if you rad this or not.. http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=85291&highlight=#85291
check my last post on page 1)

and yes.. i understand about the Sugar and phosphates.. isn't that tought in bio 1??.. can't remember exactly.. but yea, i will acknowledge that i had forgoten about the sugar and phosphate part of the DNA chain.. but it still has more logical relevance than some mystical power (god) creating every thing.

and this grudge that you mentioned???.. i dont understand what your talking about.. if i didn't like you for any reason you would know about it.. trust me..

and also i would hope that you didn't take any of this, or anything on the forums, to heart... like you seem to be doing......i really don't see how im making a fool out of myself.. but i guess if you say i am.. i must be.. i will try to stop that from now on..

NOW TO RageVI:

No.. both are infinity.. you can only judge if a number is bigger another number by there end points.. and since infinity doesn't have an end point.. you cant say one is bigger than the other

[Lupin_the_3rd]

lol how can you prove god doesn't exist: he could be doing whatever the fuck he wants with the world like making humans from amino acids or anything...

btw i'm talking in general... if you don't take the bible into account, there is no definite answer as to whether science or god is predominant...

the only way you could prove god doesn't exist is if God came out and said i'm going to create humans from dust...and you proved this impossible, but then that would mean God does exist and that scenario is impossible...

there can be no debate about God vs science
there can be a debate about bible vs science

[Falcon]

the bible is true.

in order to be wholly believed (by its own definition) a scientific theory must be experimentally proven and reproven. evolution and its most basic theories have not done this.

i'll explain these tomorrow. i've got a couple other things i'd like to talk about as well. but my brain doesnt have the capacity to do that at the moment. until tomorrow...

[kineom34]

Hmm . . . This having turned into a little discussion on God, I thought to share this . . .
My friend recently wrote a paper on God's non-existence. IN it he included this, which I found amusing:
If God exists, He is omnibenevolent.
If God exists, He is omnipotent.
An omnibenevolent god would not permit evil to exist.
An omnipotent god would have the power to prevent evil's existence.
Therefore, if God exists, evil does not exist.
Evil exists.
Therefore, God does not exist.
Just thought you may like to read, if you haven't before.

[altairian]

Ok time for me to throw my hat in the ring on this whole infinity bit, since I just took a course on logic and proofs and the last thing we covered was cardinality, I know a thing or two ;)

(this will get a little technical and if you don't know anything about mathematical sets and number theory, you might not understand everything I say)
First off, what cardinality is, is basically taking 2 sets of anything and saying "these sets are the same size" or "these sets are not the same size". There are also two classifications of infinity, countably infinite and uncountably infinite. So we all know that the set of all positive integers is infinite right? But the set of all integers is countably infinite because you can count the number of elements between any two elements within the set (in other words, you know how many integers there are between, for example, 1 and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000). It's the set of positive integers that is used for cardinality comparisons in higher mathematics. The reason I'm saying all this is because the set of all planets in the universe would also be considered countably infinite...and I just think it's really interesting ;)
For anyone wondering, the main difference between countably and uncountably infinite sets is that the countable ones we can actually kind of comprehend the size of in our minds... an uncountably infinite set is just too massive to comprehend. If you'd like an example, just think of the set of real numbers. How many real numbers are there between 0 and 1? :D
To answer Rage, yes one infinity can be larger than another infinity. It's weird I know, but it does make sense.

Ok, sorry about the long explanation, but it does have a real point to it, which is this... Yes the universe is infinite, so yes there is an infinite number of worlds. Since there is an infinite number of worlds, there is also an infinite number of worlds capable of sustaining life. The reason? A smaller infinity is still infinity. If you take the set of all positive even integers, it's still infinite right? Or even the set of all positive integers that are divisible by 10, or 100, or 1,000. No matter how much you tried, how long you lived, how fast you could search, you could never travel around the universe and eventually be able to say "I've visited every planet capable of sustaining life in the universe".

[Falcon]

Hmm . . . This having turned into a little discussion on God, I thought to share this . . .
My friend recently wrote a paper on God's non-existence. IN it he included this, which I found amusing:
If God exists, He is omnibenevolent.
If God exists, He is omnipotent.
An omnibenevolent god would not permit evil to exist.
An omnipotent god would have the power to prevent evil's existence.
Therefore, if God exists, evil does not exist.
Evil exists.
Therefore, God does not exist.
Just thought you may like to read, if you haven't before.

from an email i got.


Did God create Evil?
This will make you think for a while.
At a certain college, there was a professor with a reputation for being
tough on Christians. At the first class every semester, he asked if anyone
was a Christian and proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of
faith.
One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand when
asked if anyone was a Christian. The professor asked, "Did God make
everything, young man?" He replied, "Yes sir He did!" The professor responded, "If
God made everything, then He made evil." The student didn't have a response and
the professor was happy to have once again proved the Christian faith to be
a myth.
Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?"
"Yes, you may," responded the professor. The young man stood up and said
"Sir, is there such thing as cold?" "Of course there is, what kind of
question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?"
The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider
to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is
absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created
that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."
The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?"
Once again, the professor responded "Of course there is." And once
again, the student replied "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is
really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term man developed to
describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such thing as evil?" The
professor responded, "Of course. We have rapes, and murders and violence
everywhere in the world, those things are evil."
The student replied, "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the
Absence of God. Evil is a term man developed to describe the absence of
God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as
virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present,
like cold without heat or darkness without light."
The professor had nothing to say............


think about that for a minute...

[Lupin_the_3rd]

whoa....that was....really cool....

[jewpinthethird]

It does have a point. But to me, it is nothing more than Chrisitian Propagada. I wouldnt say that Evil is the absence of God, but the absence of Love. By saying it is the absence of God, you are saying that before the belief of one God, the whole world was Evil. Which is not true.

More people have been killed in the name of Christ than in any war. During the Dark-Ages, it was religion that ruled the European world.

I believe that Religion is the fuel for he Human ego. Humans want to believe that there is more to their life than just reproduction. God is like that of a mother to a small child. No matter how much trouble a child gets into, there will always be a parent there to save them and love them. Humans need this comfort. God is also the explaination for all the things that man could not understand at the time (over 2000 years ago).

But just because I believe that, doesnt make it right. But according to Christianity, I am going to hell. It doesnt matter how good a person I was. And if this is true, then God is a pretty f*cked up being.

[Anticrombie0909]

But just because I believe that, doesnt make it right. But according to Christianity, I am going to hell. It doesnt matter how good a person I was. And if this is true, then God is a pretty f*cked up being.

[ultimategamer]

Ok, i'll try to make this post short, cause i would have posted several long and meaningful posts but every time i tried i ended up losing it.

That email about that college professor was really interesting, and is especially vital to any debate trying to prove the existance of God. I, myself, am agnostic. But that isn't whats important. Heres another key, if paradoxial, statement against God that will make anyone's brain churn for atleast a few minutes. This is something my friend told me.

If God is real, he is omnipotent.
If God is omnipotent, he can do anything.
If God can do anything, (this is the important part) then can he create an object so massive and dense, that not even he can move it? If he can, then he cannot do everything. If he does, than he can't do everything. Its a lose-lose situation for Him.

Also, according to that email, evil is the absense of God. But how can this possibly be when God is suppose to be everywhere? If God is not everywhere, He is not "perfect" as things will slip by him or what not. Thus, if evil is indeed the absense of God, God must be imperfect.

[RobbyZero]

This is how it goes down.

If you believe in the whole bible jesus and blablabla story then good for you.

If your like me and don't or just dont know what to believe cause it all sounds so phony and a bunch of bullshit then good for us.

[jewpinthethird]

Ok, i'll try to make this post short, cause i would have posted several long and meaningful posts but every time i tried i ended up losing it.

That email about that college professor was really interesting, and is especially vital to any debate trying to prove the existance of God. I, myself, am agnostic. But that isn't whats important. Heres another key, if paradoxial, statement against God that will make anyone's brain churn for atleast a few minutes. This is something my friend told me.

If God is real, he is omnipotent.
If God is omnipotent, he can do anything.
If God can do anything, (this is the important part) then can he create an object so massive and dense, that not even he can move it? If he can, then he cannot do everything. If he does, than he can't do everything. Its a lose-lose situation for Him.

Also, according to that email, evil is the absense of God. But how can this possibly be when God is suppose to be everywhere? If God is not everywhere, He is not "perfect" as things will slip by him or what not. Thus, if evil is indeed the absense of God, God must be imperfect.
Religion isnt perfect. And neither is science. Therefore, neither is right. But, maybe a mixer of the two is. But both sides are too are too arrogant to accept the other.

On the other hand, you have the religious countries of the Middle East fighting like a bunch of ninnies over their religious differences with technology invented/discovered by scientists (nukes, bio warfare etc.). Maybe it is this, the perfect combination of Religion and Science, that results in the end of the world. Maybe that is how it is destined to be.

[Anonymous]

But just because I believe that, doesnt make it right. But according to Christianity, I am going to hell. It doesnt matter how good a person I was. And if this is true, then God is a pretty f*cked up being.

if you did believe in God, would you want to believe in a God that controlled your thoughts and forced you to believe in what he said? if the God i believe in is actually existant, then thats not the type of being he is. he gives us a choice... to choose him or not to. what kind of God would force his subjects to worship him? not an omipotent, omnibenevolent etc. God, i would say.


More people have been killed in the name of Christ than in any war. During the Dark-Ages, it was religion that ruled the European world.

i'd like to apologize for the crusades. they were stupid and went against what true christianity stands for. i'm sorry.


If God is real, he is omnipotent.
If God is omnipotent, he can do anything.
If God can do anything, (this is the important part) then can he create an object so massive and dense, that not even he can move it? If he can, then he cannot do everything. If he does, than he can't do everything. Its a lose-lose situation for Him.

that is obviously a paradox that doesnt seem solvable. but 1. i dont see how that is really all that relevant and 2. if the God i believe in exists, then he is obviously (as stated by several people already) not confined by the laws we know as humans, such as density and mass. problem solved.


Religion isnt perfect. And neither is science. Therefore, neither is right. But, maybe a mixer of the two is. But both sides are too are too arrogant to accept the other.

obviously true. if i were to blindly say "my religion is completely flawless" then i would have an extremely hard time proving it without using arguments of faith, which are pivotal in religion, and oftentimes in science (big bang, etc).


On the other hand, you have the religious countries of the Middle East fighting like a bunch of ninnies over their religious differences with technology invented/discovered by scientists (nukes, bio warfare etc.). Maybe it is this, the perfect combination of Religion and Science, that results in the end of the world. Maybe that is how it is destined to be.

read the book of revelation in the bible. thats pretty much right... though your version is way simpler.

heres a question for yall:

if the bible is so flawed, why is it so widely used by nonchristian historians, and why have so many of the prophesies it contains come true/ continue to come true?

[Falcon]

and by "guest" i meant falcon.

[ultimategamer]

if the bible is so flawed, why is it so widely used by nonchristian historians, and why have so many of the prophesies it contains come true/ continue to come true?

But you see, the bible IS flawed. Many things in it just don't make sense. Lets look at the basic most story of Adam and Eve. If they are the 2 first humans, and all human life comes from them (thats my understanding of it), how can we as a species surpass genetic thinning (or whatever term is used) caused by inbreeding? Royalty, for example, has proven countless times in the past that inbreeding causes...special children to be born. Should we all ride the short bus to school then, so to speak, and die out as a species?

Also, with the crusades, in the bible, God has had many important religious figures kill pagan men, enslave the children, and rape the women. How is this different from the crusades? In essense, its not.

Also, for these prophesies, name RECENT (within lets say 10-50 years) that are prophesized in the bible. Enlighten me. Historians use them simply because they must use every single piece of evidence they can to reconstruct our and the worlds history. When historians unearth, lets say, a mesopotamian tablet of a story, it doesn't matter whether or not they think its a fiction or non fiction, they must use it to the best of their abilities to help reconstruct the way things were.

[kineom34]

Like ultimategamer said, it's a relic that has survived for wuite a long time, and is widely available to all.
Unfortunately, it contradicts itself, so I"ve read. But I haven't come across any of this stuff. Most of the contradiction that I've come across comes in the form of the followers who misquote. :P

[altairian]

"Prophecy" is generally a bunch of crap. All a prophecy is, is ia general statement about something that could happen any time in the future.
Probably the best example of this is the writing of Nostradamus (it was Nostradamus right? I'm bad with names... :p ). He wrote a lot of "prophecies" by making general statements about conflict and such, so then in hindsight we can go "OMG NOSTRADAMUS SO PREDICTED THAT WHEN HE SAID ____ ". The best example of this would be the WTC attack in 2k1. Nostradamus had some writing about 2 towers burning, or something along those lines (sorry I'm too lazy to go find the actual passage) and after the incident people realized how similar that passage was to the incident.
But prophecies never give a time frame, or really any specifics for that matter either. So, IMO, they're complete bull. Anyone can write prophecy if they want to. All you have to do is make some general statement about any sort of possible occurence and make it sound good, and you have yourself a prophecy.

[kineom34]

It was Nostradamus. You didn't by chance see the History channel's show today on him? They talked about that, and Hister. Not hitler, but Hister. That's supposedly the name used to mean Hitler that Nostradamus used.

[ultimategamer]

this is for kineom and everyone else who wonders:

http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/bible-a.htm

here is a rather interesting site that contains a LOT of biblical contradictions. Granted, a few on such a work would be understandable, but this pretty much shows more contradictions than you can shake a stick at.

[jewpinthethird]

Hah, I just saw that History Channel special.

Quote:

More people have been killed in the name of Christ than in any war. During the Dark-Ages, it was religion that ruled the European world.


i'd like to apologize for the crusades. they were stupid and went against what true christianity stands for. i'm sorry.


Apology accepted.

if the God i believe in is actually existant, then thats not the type of being he is. he gives us a choice... to choose him or not to. what kind of God would force his subjects to worship him? not an omipotent, omnibenevolent etc. God, i would say.


I am a good person. I am more "Christian" than most of the christians I know. I give to charity, I help those in need, I treat others as I would like to be treated etc. But because I do not believe in the grand entity known as "God", I am automatically going to hell. I could live the life of a saint, but according the Bible, I am a sinner for not believing in God. And if this is true, God has bad judgement. And a God with bad judgement is no God at all.

[Anticrombie0909]

But you see, the bible IS flawed. Many things in it just don't make sense. Lets look at the basic most story of Adam and Eve. If they are the 2 first humans, and all human life comes from them (thats my understanding of it), how can we as a species surpass genetic thinning (or whatever term is used) caused by inbreeding? Royalty, for example, has proven countless times in the past that inbreeding causes...special children to be born. Should we all ride the short bus to school then, so to speak, and die out as a species?

One thing I've always wondered about. Adam and Eve were the first two humans. They had Cain and Abel. Where the HELL did the next generation come from?

There's probably a logical explanation, but I'll just choose to say 'ew' and leave it at that.

[makaveli121212]

to all who dont go to church, the old testament is a group of stories...much like fables, they are not meant to be taken literally, but to teach a lesson...many of the things may have taken place in some form , but not in the extent the bible makes it to be

ie Noahs arc
there was a massive flood, and noah did gather two of the animals...well the ones he could find nearby, and the flood didnt cover the whole earth, just his region...it happened but not always ot the extent the bible says

[heyhey11]

WOW 14 pages thats a record for this section of the forums