Balancing Infiltration

[evilbutterfly]

Just so it doesn't clog up the postgame, here we go. We need (in my opinion):

-More classes, for both sides (ideas will come later)
-Fewer guards, linearly moving guards, some way to avoid alert mode
-Different way to handle alert mode for others
-Wolves should only be able to kill one person surprisingly as they enter, so people moving in pairs will be safe


-More ideas from everybody.

I'll post more later, I just wanted to get the thread made so people will stop putting this stuff in the postgame. Remember, well thought-out ideas only, and be serious about this. We need some proper balancing here but playability and most of all...FUN!

[GuidoHunter]

Take away the Patriot Report; it was too good for us. Of course, if you make it so that we can't use terminals in Alert Mode, it might be a thing to keep.

Eliminate the sneaker class so everyone has to avoid guards.

More classes for everyone and diverse classes for the wolves.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[evilbutterfly]

Ideas for classes:

Super Sneaker (there can be a better name, but whatever): Can't be seen by anyone. Can't attack. Can't use terminals during Alert Mode. This class will be the survival class. Also, they can go in rooms and check people out to see if they're doing anything bad. They can see what people in the room with them do. Thus, if 3 people show up in a room, 1 is a Red and 1 is a Super Sneaker, the SS will see the Red kill the other guy and be able to report it. If this is implemented, Reds may be given the option to "fire randomly into the room" to have a chance at killing them, but this would waste their turn. Thus, if a SS hides in a gas terminal to spy, Reds wouldn't be able to gas somebody AND fire into the dark to kill them.

Sensory person (can't think of a name): These guys can sense anybody with a small radius. May be they won't know who it is other than that it's a human or a guard, but they will be told "You sense someone in the next room (A3)." They also negate the Super Sneaker's ability, sense they have super senses. This will be helpful in checking validity when people say they'll be going to such and such room.

Ones for wolves will come later, once I think about it some more. As you can see, it's good to have the classes be interdependant and either complement or negate other classes. This then adds further into strategy. A sneaker and super sneaker could travel together so 1) the sneaker is guaranteed to not die and 2) the super sneaker will have somebody to use terminals for him. Certain wolf classes will be able to negate special effects of certain human classes, and certain human classes should negate other wolf classes. Thus, the wolves will want to find out what class people are so they'll know how to more easily kill them. Other humans will also want to know so they'll know who they can partner up with.

Partnering should definitly be a big thing. With wolves able to just kill everybody without being known, something needs to counter this. I feel that moving in partners/groups should be the answer. This would also make Alert Mode happen less often.

Speaking of Alert Mode, I feel that guards should move linearly. Each guard could have a different movement pattern, though, so even class who can't kill guards would be able to know where they'll be based on their previous movements. This would also allow guards to switch floors. For instance, the guards on floors B and C may switch off. One guard would start in B and go from room 1 all the way to room 8 then go up to floor C and go from 8 to 1. The other guard would start in C8 and follow the same path. This is more like real life/the real game/better balanced, so I think the idea should be seriously considered.

[Kefit]

You guys are going about this wrong.

The key to balancing this game is to make it simpler. Right now we are trying to put far too much into this game at once with classes and combat and movement and terminals and side-quests and crap. Yes, all those things might work at some point, but for now we need to take it one step at a time. We need to strip this game down to it's basics, whatever those may be, and build from there.

My suggestions would be to eliminate classes, combat, and guards for now, and to reduce the building size, and then to build it up from there once we have the basic humans versus wolves game balanced.

[Tps222]

Kefit, you have a good idea, but then isn't almost the same as the original twg with some mgs storyline, and some rooms.

[chardish]

Kefit is right, the trick to balance is to make things simpler, not more complex.

Here's my (tentative) ideas, tell me what you think:

-Keep the Patriot Report. Remember that there are 3 reds and 12 greens - you outnumber them 4-to-1. I think this is really necessary.

New Class descriptions:
WARRIORS are the only class capable of any form of attack. Meaning they're the only ones who can do away with guards. They still set off Alert Mode, though, if they're spotted.
HACKERS can not only repair hacked terminals, but also destroyed ones. Otherwise hacking becomes worthless compared to destruction. The flipside is that repairing a hacked/destroyed terminal now takes a full turn, rather than being able to do at the same time as getting information from it. Also, hacked terminals will simply issue random information, rather than intentionally wrong information.
SNEAKERS still never set off Alert Mode, and can use terminals in Alert Mode, but can no longer kill guards (and neither can hackers.) Sneakers cannot use terminals in a room where the actual guard is.

Now, here's the big changes to Alert Mode: It only affects the floor it was called on. All players are informed which floor it is. The idea for this actually came from - where else? - MGS.

I was playing MGS2, and I got found.

Guard: "I've got him. Send reinforcements."
Commander: "Understood. Sending an additional squad to Strut B. Secure the area around the door to the BC connecting bridge."

And it hit me. They only go into Alert Mode around the area where you were found! Leave the area, and they go out of Alert Mode (and into Evasion Mode, but that doesn't really apply here.) So why would an alert on Floor A make everyone on Floor E go run and hide? They're not inspecting the area.

It follows that there should be some sort of greater punishment, though, for setting off Alert Mode. My idea for balance here also comes from MGS. After Alert, throw the entire floor that the Alert was on into Caution mode. What this does is put a guard in every room on the floor only for the next phase. Meaning that it's essential for everyone to stay away from that floor.

Now, as for the Reds: Three classes of them, too.
VANDAL: destroys terminals.
CRACKER: hacks terminals.
CREEPER: exact same as green sneaker, except this one's red.

This negates my initial fear of what the Greens would do if the Reds couldn't use terminals during Alert Mode - intentionally trigger it every turn while Sneakers gathered enough information to win the game, without any fear of reciprocation. With this, Alert Mode is still something to be feared. If an entire floor is in Caution Mode, not even Sneakers will want to hang around that place - they can't use terminals with guards in the room. And since Creepers can't trigger Alert, and Vandals and Crackers are paralyzed by it, there's no good reason for the Reds to intentionally trigger Alert anymore.

Thoughts?

[Afrobean]

Chardish, you are a genius. That sounds perfect. I wholeheartedly support the implemementation of these rules and class changes.

[evilbutterfly]

Sounds good, but I'd like to see things more advanced than that later on. I still think that guards should walk in patterns, though. That idea also comes from MGS. If you know a guy paces back and forth in a certain way, you know when to move through that area and when not to. The guard terminals, rather than moving guards around, could either change move patterns (for the Reds who use it) or let Greens view what pattern the guards are currently walking.

And Chardish, when you say they have the only attack ability, does that mean guards can kill us? Also, can players still attack each other?

[HansSky]

It all sounds good to me, Chardish. But I think there should be some time difference of fixing a hacked terminal and fixing a destroyed terminal. Or maybe even make that a separate class. Because not all computer geniuses know what to do when they find a PC jumbled into pieces on the floor, right?

[chardish]

I still think that guards should walk in patterns, though. That idea also comes from MGS. If you know a guy paces back and forth in a certain way, you know when to move through that area and when not to.

Yes, but MGS is about dodging guards. If the game was primarily about dodging the guards, then I would agree with you. However, the game should not be about dodging guards, and one of the problems with the beta run of the game was that that was the biggest concern (especially after Decision 2, when only 1 sneaker was left alive.)

And Chardish, when you say they have the only attack ability, does that mean guards can kill us? Also, can players still attack each other?

No, guards can't kill you. Yes, you can still attack each other. I'm thinking "ganging up" on guards should also be alowed.

It all sounds good to me, Chardish. But I think there should be some time difference of fixing a hacked terminal and fixing a destroyed terminal. Or maybe even make that a separate class. Because not all computer geniuses know what to do when they find a PC jumbled into pieces on the floor, right?

I was thinking about there being a greater difference between destroying and hacking in terms of how it's repaired. One idea was to have destroyed terminals still be usable, but only by hackers, whereas hacked terminals could simply be repaired. I like the simpler idea better though, as it lends a bit more power to the hacker class, which in this game was extremely weak.

Clarification.

Sneakers can't use a terminal when the guard is in the room ONLY during Alert or Caution mode on that floor.

Also, a couple more terminal ideas:

Alert terminal. If you're in a room with an alert terminal, and Alert Mode is called anywhere in the facility, the alert terminal lets you immediately cancel it. Also lets you cancel Caution Mode. This doesn't work if the guard is right there in the room with you.

Search terminal. Enter the name of a terminal and the search terminal randomly finds one and tells you where it is. Cannot be used to find game-winning rooms. Cannot be used to find more than one terminal of the same type by the same player.

I'm thinking about removing anonymous messaging because I can't honestly see the good that can come from it. No one is going to trust something said anonymously, and it's not like speaking out loud makes you a bigger target for the reds - the reds are going to kill anyone any chance they get. It's not like TWG where the wolves can just get anyone at anytime, and the bigger of a threat you are, the more likely you are to get wolfed.

I'm also thinking about what to do with electronic lock. I can't see it being much good for the greens, and for the reds it's essentially a delayed gas terminal with more consequences for the reds. Which, if anything, is exactly the reason to keep it.

[Omeganitros]

Brilliant. During the game, I was thinking of suggesting an Interrogation Attack for the Reds. But then it turned out the Reds were too good, and everyone else's is way better.

Anyways, it was going to work like this: Interrogation Attack can only be used once per Red. Each Red gets only one chance use it. Basically, when the Red is in the same room as a Green, decides to kill him, and succeeds, he gains all that Green's information on what is in each room that Green previously visited.
Or, have a "Master Red" who is the only one who can use the move.
Or, it works like a trap the Red has to set up in a room, and then he'll have to get a Green to go in the room. The Green then becomes trapped in that room unless a Red comes in and Interrogates him, or a Guard comes in and kills him, or another Green comes in a releases him.
"Colonel, I'm trapped in room B-6. Can you please tell Olive to come and rescue me?"

But I guess that idea will be for...later.

[Kilgamayan]

I think the Hacker should still be able to retain the ability to de-hack and use on the same turn. Fixing it taking up a full turn makes sense.

[Matthew4444]

I wasn't part of the game, but I still followed it enough to gather that the humans died from ignorance. An idea I had that would help hackers is the Input Relay skill. Basically a hacker can write a script for a terminal, taking a fair amount of time to do so, that sends any inputted text to their codec. Just the input, not the terminal's response. This would help to see who's up to no good and who's being truthful.

[HansSky]

I don't quite understand, Matthew. Elaborate, please.

[chardish]

I get what he means.

You Input Relay a terminal, and then anytime anyone uses it you find out what they entered - but not who they are or what the terminal responded with. It's like those little devices that record what keyboards type, but nothing else.

It's not a bad idea, but I'd like in-depth comments on the changes I've proposed before I consider modifying them further. I am concerned about the effectiveness of Hackers, so it's something to consider.

[Matthew4444]

Basically, a hacker can choose to "bug" a terminal. Since all things typed into a terminal are text, the text that was put in at the bugged terminal is sent to the hacker. So let's say Magenta is a hacker. They go to C-3 and find a seer terminal. They choose to bug it. A couple turns later, Olive finds the seer terminal. Olive wants to seer Grey. Magenta would get a message like: C-3 Terminal "Grey". Olive would get the response of "Green", but Magenta wouldn't get the response. Magenta would also still not know what the response was.
That was a poor example, because it doesn't have as much of a practical application there. But if a hacker were to bug other terminals, such as a validity check or a gas terminal, then they could know more incriminating things. Although on second thought, maybe relaying the answer as well would be a better idea.

[CypherToorima]

But then everyone would be hackers. It gives them much too much power, in my opinion.

[Matthew4444]

This was just to give the humans in general more power. Of course other classes would be compensated, and maybe even have the Reds be able to do nasty things by hacking a bugged terminal.

[chardish]

This was just to give the humans in general more power. Of course other classes would be compensated, and maybe even have the Reds be able to do nasty things by hacking a bugged terminal.

Now you're talking about even further balance changes by balancing everyone else to reflect the changes you've offered.

The #1 rule of game design is to KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid.)

[evilbutterfly]

Chardish, I think your new class ideas would work just fine. Hackers being able to fix terminals makes them much more useful, and seeing the number of people who chose hacker last time and the fact that Alert Mode will be toned down, probably everybody will be a hacker. Also, all the Reds will be vandals. Why hack a terminal when you can just destroy it? I'm not saying these classes should be nerfed, but the other classes should have further uses. For example:

Sneakers can only be seen by other Sneakers or Creepers. The Red's Creeper would be able to be seen by players (not that it would matter, because they'd kill the person as they enter the room), but they'd be the only ones who could see Sneakers. As is, Creepers are fairly useless compared to the other wolf classes, but being the only ones able to easily kill Sneakers would make them very useful. Also, being mostly invisible would make the self-preservationists more prone to being Sneakers.

Hackers should be left as you said. Able to fix a hacked terminal and use it in one turn, but fixing a destroyed one takes a whole turn. As far as balancing between Vandal and Cracker, I propose this: Warriors can destroy terminals. Vandals also destroy terminals, but can't fix them. Crackers CAN fix them. Thus, warriors not only eliminate guards, they can shut down gas terminals, too. This also gives wolves more incentive to be Crackers, whereas in your original idea they're a stupid choice next to Vandals.

Also, you've not said anything regarding Reds being able to kill multiple people as they enter the room. I think they should only get one surprise attack on someone. This would encourage moving in pairs, which would also encourage class diversity. Hackers and Warriors travelling together could make quite a team. Able to destroy bad terminals, fix good terminals, and they'd only be able to be taken out if at least two Reds came after them at once.

I think this provides every class with an appropriate counter, so people will not all bunch as one class because it leaves the entire team vulnerable to one class or the other. Please respond to my ideas rather than just posting your own new ones like you've always done in the past :P.

[chardish]

Chardish, I think your new class ideas would work just fine. Hackers being able to fix terminals makes them much more useful, and seeing the number of people who chose hacker last time and the fact that Alert Mode will be toned down, probably everybody will be a hacker.

Probably not, I still forsee sneakers as being valuable for being able to move without fear of alert. Though maybe Sneakers do need an extra "kick", I don't know what it is yet. Some sort of immunity vs. the reds would be too big of an advantage. When envisioning classes, I think to myself "What would the game be like if everyone chose this class?" If that makes the game shift too dramatically, I cut back. Any type of defense against the Reds is too big of an advantage. I would like for Sneakers to be able to use terminals during Caution mode, but that goes back to the idea that it then becomes an advantage to trigger Alert everywhere so that the Sneakers can harvest information.

Also, all the Reds will be vandals. Why hack a terminal when you can just destroy it?

I was envisioning enforcing 1 class per wolf. So only one would be a Cracker, only one would be a Vandal, and only one would be a Creeper.

Sneakers can only be seen by other Sneakers or Creepers. The Red's Creeper would be able to be seen by players (not that it would matter, because they'd kill the person as they enter the room), but they'd be the only ones who could see Sneakers. As is, Creepers are fairly useless compared to the other wolf classes, but being the only ones able to easily kill Sneakers would make them very useful.

No, being the only ones able to easily kill Sneakers makes them far overpowered. I do agree that the Creeper is a bit weaker than the others. I'm wondering if making him immune to History terminals would help him out a bit. This gives him more of a special role, instead of "I'm a Sneaker who works for the Reds."

Also, being mostly invisible would make the self-preservationists more prone to being Sneakers.

Everyone is, at their core, a self-preservationist. And due to the special nature of this game, where the humans have a better shot at winning the more of their own they have alive (which is not the case in TWG), it is in everyone's own best interest to be a self-preservationist.

Hackers should be left as you said. Able to fix a hacked terminal and use it in one turn, but fixing a destroyed one takes a whole turn.

I didn't say that. I said it should take a full turn to fix either hacking or destruction.
The reasoning behind this is:
a) destroying terminals is already more popular among the Reds than hacking. Making hacks easier to fix than destruction doesn't make hacking a better option.
b) if you're a hacker, you can detect hacked terminals. Non-hackers will simply attempt to use the terminals, whereas hackers will fix them. Thus, letting the hackers use/fix the terminal in the same turn means that the hacking ability does not deter hackers, whereas the destruction ability deters everyone. Whereas if the hacked terminal cannot be used in the same turn it is repaired, it deters hackers (as they will be forced to waste their turn fixing it) as well as non-hackers (because they will get wrong information from the terminal.) I hope that rambling train of thought made sense, but the bottom line is that it's senseless to nerf hacking when it's already nerfed as it is.

As far as balancing between Vandal and Cracker, I propose this: Warriors can destroy terminals. Vandals also destroy terminals, but can't fix them. Crackers CAN fix them. Thus, warriors not only eliminate guards, they can shut down gas terminals, too. This also gives wolves more incentive to be Crackers, whereas in your original idea they're a stupid choice next to Vandals.

Not a bad idea, but I don't like the idea of destruction of the gas terminals being an option for the Greens. Remember that it's 4-to-1 against the Reds here - and every terminal in the facility is there to help the Greens, except 1 (possibly 2 if you count the switch terminal, though I think it could be used defensively.)

Also, you've not said anything regarding Reds being able to kill multiple people as they enter the room. I think they should only get one surprise attack on someone. This would encourage moving in pairs, which would also encourage class diversity. Hackers and Warriors travelling together could make quite a team. Able to destroy bad terminals, fix good terminals, and they'd only be able to be taken out if at least two Reds came after them at once.

I have to keep coming back to the spirit of the game. In the end this is a game about information gathering and trust, not about how you can use your cool superpowers to take on the facility. The powers are there to add diversity to strategy - as I mentioned in an earlier post, the facility is a playground for schemers on both sides. This is anything but a traditional role-playing game.

Despite Kefit's view, I think the fact that a single leak of information or a single bit of misplaced trust can lead to your immediate death is what makes this game all the more interesting - because teamwork is necessary to win. The final objective absolutely cannot be completed without 4 people working on the same side - but who do you trust?

Giving the players a "trust parachute" of this kind, where everyone has a safety net that prevents a mistake in trust from costing them their life, defeats the purpose of the game. Mistakes are deadly. This doesn't mean that people should avoid communication, it simply means that people should think twice about informing anyone where they're going.

I think this provides every class with an appropriate counter, so people will not all bunch as one class because it leaves the entire team vulnerable to one class or the other. Please respond to my ideas rather than just posting your own new ones like you've always done in the past :P.

Will do. But can I hear some people's thoughts on the Anonmess terminal and the Electronic Lock terminal?

[Kefit]

Get rid of all the useless terminals, definitely. Both the electronic lock and messege terminals should go, and so should the guard terminal (I really don't see how it is useful).

Last game I managed to run into a guard terminal, an anonymous messege terminal, and a lock terminal befure I died. This was incredibly annoying, as even if alert mode hadn't always been active, I still wouldn't have been able to do anything worthwhile.

Balancing the terminals would also remove a little bit of the luck aspect of this game, which I think is in a game of this nature's best interest.

And I still think we should try a game with no classes at all and balance that first before we play around with classes a bunch.

[blahblah18]

Well Chardish's class ideas work, and I think they would be of minimal importance in comparison to the game itself, which is very important.

On chardish's ideas... the terminal that tells you where a X terminal is is ridiculously beyond overpowered for BOTH sides, and it becomes whoever finds one of those wins... Patriot finds it to know what to hack/destroy Foxhound uses it to find seer terminals and everything else.... COMBINE that with the map terminal, and it becomes game over. I strongly suggest not using that terminal. EB said most of the other things I was thinking of, and then Chardish's most recent point hit everything perfectly on the head... I'll think about it some more.

[evilbutterfly]

Oh, I ought to answer Chardish's question: yes, definitly remove those 2 terminals. I don't like the move terminal either, though I see how it could be useful.

[Kilgamayan]

A switch terminal would've come in handy to get the superlocater back.

[HansSky]

Yes, but considering that you can fix destroyed terminals now, there is not much use for it.

[Kilgamayan]

Maybe, but the wolves would still know where it is.