Camel [10 or 11]

[DossarLX ODI]

Statistical data

Difficulty: 10
Release Date: 06-01-11
Song Length: 2:24
Number of AAAs: 37
Number of FCs: 213
Number of Players: 946
# of Times Played: 3,051

A blackflag is rank 39. Nine goods is rank 93. Rank 200 is over 50 goods. This is very harsh for a VC scoreboard. It's also been out for a little while, 10 months.


From notes ~60-220 we see a lot of colored technical gallops and polyrhythms going on, a good amount of them one handed.
From notes ~250-450, more technicality and one handed gallops.
Then we get to notes ~500-570 you have fast 48th triplets (300 bpm 16th equivalent), the majority of them one-handed. This is very rare to see in any VC file.
After the polyrhythms at ~720-740, you have the infamous one-handed 64th "cameljacks".
Notes ~1030-1065 you have a huge amount of color technicality going on.


Overall it's a very color-heavy file with a lot of polyrhythms and one handed gallops, with weird fast one handed parts which you would never see in any other VC. Even if you tried cheating them as [34]3, you risk bootraps to compensate for having to deal with a frame interval higher than zero (and those cameljacks are FAST). Like I said, I have never seen any other VC in game with one handed sections this fast.

[rayword45]

True, the one-handed sections are atrocious, although IMO only the 64ths are noticeable.

After playing it, yes it's colorful and tricky, but it lacks the speed to be an FMO. spanish, while easier then this song overall, is quite comparable and has more fast sections.

[bballa48]

True, the one-handed sections are atrocious, although IMO only the 64ths are noticeable.

After playing it, yes it's colorful and tricky, but it lacks the speed to be an FMO. spanish, while easier then this song overall, is quite comparable and has more fast sections.

Speed is but one component of skill. Some of those camel jack type things require an absurd amount of one hand trill ability (not to mention great reading skills). It is an 11, no doubt. I initially came into this thread to argue 10, but after playing it again I changed my mind.

[j-rodd123]

True, the one-handed sections are atrocious, although IMO only the 64ths are noticeable.

After playing it, yes it's colorful and tricky, but it lacks the speed to be an FMO.

I agree with this and vote 10. It is just not super fast, and the patterns, while awkward, are not horrible to hit at the current speed.

[qqwref]

I'm voting for 11; pretty much the same reason as other people. I don't think a lot of people would be AAAing this chart as their first FMO if it was moved up. (In fact I think almost all the AAA'ers are people who consider a blackflag on a low FMO to be an embarrassing score.)

[DossarLX ODI]

Speed is but one component of skill. Some of those camel jack type things require an absurd amount of one hand trill ability (not to mention great reading skills). It is an 11, no doubt. I initially came into this thread to argue 10, but after playing it again I changed my mind.

Absolutely. Even I have trouble hitting the 343 and 212 ones. Like I said, they're fuggen FAST. No other VC has one hand trilling control like this.

[icontrolyourworld]

I think the fact we coin the term Camel Jacks off of this file says a lot about how hard it is. I'm for it being an 11

[ichliebekase]

While I can see this being an FMO, I'd have to lean more towards a VC. For any person that is skilled at mini-jacks, it isn't difficult at all. The majority of the file plays like a 9/low 10, and there's only select few spots that push it at all. Yes, there are "boot traps" as you say, but it's a mental block that can be overcome.

(Funny thing is, I always thought this was already an FMO for how much Frankie complains about it xD)

[qqwref]

PS:
- last time I updated the FFR Statistics thing, there were 21 files with at least 1 so-called "cameljack" in them
- there are 5 FMOs on that list (Rudi, Gymnastics, Ripoff, Silly Symph, Flesvelka), all of which are considered pretty high, and only one VC (Camel, obviously)
- ...and Camel has THREE of these patterns

[ichliebekase]

But look at those charts, take out the camel jacks, what do you have? You still have FMOs. Take out the camel jacks in Camel, what do you have? A VC (barely).

[nickcool9999]

I vote 11. These patterns are extremely difficult. Even though most of the file is low 9 speed, this file contains an insane amount of hands and one-handed triplets.

[DossarLX ODI]

But look at those charts, take out the camel jacks, what do you have? You still have FMOs. Take out the camel jacks in Camel, what do you have? A VC (barely).

But look at Crowdpleaser. Take out the stupid 64th clusterframe part at 490 combo and the 64th trill. What do you have? Barely a low 10 at all.

[qqwref]

But look at those charts, take out the camel jacks, what do you have? You still have FMOs. Take out the camel jacks in Camel, what do you have? A VC (barely).
I don't see why this argument should affect things. A difficulty spike is a difficulty spike, and if it's in the file you have to hit it. So it shouldn't matter how hard the file is without the difficulty spike. If the spike pushes it into FMO territory, it's FMO.

[TC_Halogen]

The argument for making this an 11 is just as reasonable as the argument for keeping this a 10. When personal opinions are split down the middle, raw statistics are the way to go. In terms of personal examination of the file, I believe it's a VC.

...however, the statistics are very strongly leaning toward a FMO difficulty file, so I'm going to advocate the change.

[DossarLX ODI]

I'll mention this again because it's been brought up before

Imagine if Crowdpleaser was just the megatrill. A two second, 30 note file. I'm sure most of you would agree that it would still be a 12 or maybe even a 13. Now add in the rest of the file. How in the flying fuck would adding more notes to the file decrease the difficulty of that 30 note file? There is no logical way to argue that CP should now only be a 10 or 11 because the rest of the file is VD-worthy. Adding more notes to surround the iso file (and if any of you argue that the 30 note file would only be an FMO, then lol) only increases the difficulty.

[ichliebekase]

There's a difference between a huge dump of a trill that is near impossible to hit for the average player and that is about 5 seconds long, and these little mini-jacks that are a split second only 3 times. With practice, and not very much of it, you can hit those with ease.

These little jacks are not a "difficulty spike". They're mini-jacks in a file that doesn't have many jacks in it.

I don't see this as an FMO, and if it gets bumped, well then I have a new FMO SDG that I could probably get below 5 goods on with a couple more tries. I stated my opinion with information to back it, and I'll leave it at that.

[TC_Halogen]

@ Dossar: It's a very logical point. However, it truly can't be used in Camel's situation because it's not stressing an -extreme- for an extended distance. Many of the patterns found in this particular file are incredibly difficult, but are sustained for reasonable periods. If you were to likewise take these parts of the file apart, would they make for the difficulty that you are advocating?

Chances are, if you were to take all of the parts of this file and separate them, it wouldn't make for much of an 11-difficulty file. However, compile and strategically place all of those areas within a chart that lasts over two minutes, and you have an arguable point. It works well for CP because it is pure, uninterrupted, constant difficulty, and it is not easily sustainable for more than 99.9% of the community.

[j-rodd123]

I agree with ichlie's point and halogen's first point, the difficulty 'spikes' from VC to fmo are not remotely comparable to crowdpleasers megatrill and bursts, thats a pretty ludicrous comparison. Camel flows and at the low speeds it does not take fmo ability to hit those patterns, and they are split up quite well by well-flowing patterns. Awkward patterns and cameljacks really do not warrant this being an fmo at all imo

[rushyrulz]

11 cuz cameljacks

[One Winged Angel]

If someone had a gun to my head, told me to play FFR while picking a different song for each run, and would pull the trigger as soon as I didn't AAA a file I'd picked, I'd pick a shitload of FMOs before daring to play Camel.

11

[FontSize72LOL]

this is another of those songs that is 11 to aaa and 10 to fc. this is a tough one but I could see it as a high 10 or low 11. I'm down for 11 since I have it aaa'd lol

Looking at the skill level of the people that have AAA'd this song, most of them are high D5+, That right there tells you something about the difficulty of the song PA wise. I'd agree, combo wise its probably a high 10, but PA difficulty is lingering around mid 11. Average those out and you have a solid 11.

[Zakvvv666]

Just gave Camel a play, it should stay a 10, while the patterns are really fast and tricky they don't quite push it into the FMO realm, it's a high-10.

[x_lambourghini_x]

11 due to cameljacks (basically, everyone else's reasoning).

[Riotpolice]

11 because many of those "hard" parts are fast as shit and are not seen in many 10s. Most of those patterns push past 10 difficulty and move into 11.

[justin_ator]

11 so I can get another FMO AAA plz

[TheSaxRunner05]

If were use our difficulty system to say how hard a file is to AAA, I'd say this is an 11.

If it's based on how hard it is to FC, its a 10.

Whether this is a 10 or 11 depends on if whether you look at overall PA, or difficulty to AAA. I got 34 goods (not clean) on camel, lower than any FMO, but I think I would AAA and FMO before it.

[hi19hi19]

Most bmah files should be a difficulty level higher due to the awkwardness of certain patterns.
I'm all for this being a FMO due to the fuccen cameljacks, they are both hard to PA and FC. This file also has tons of other bootraps.

[stavie33]

It's a really high VC, but just a bitch of a file, I don't think it needs FMO overall, once more in the 'technical VC' 75 zone. Jumpjack the camel jacks (I hit a jump then a single mini jack, works everytime and not that tricky a maneuver)

[~Zeta~]

In my opinion, everyone is overreacting to the minitrills. Not as hard as everyone thinks. The color and polyrhythms are by far harder since you have less indication of the rhythm or pattern. And it's not like it's compressed, dense, or one after another. They're spread out.

10.

[Guest15937]

I personally don't even find the cameljacks any harder than the rest of the file, and by now, I think we can all agree that the file would be a 10 minus the jacks.

10

[Hairy Cabbage]

why is this still a 10? :(

the ending is even hard to combo let alone AAA. and the rest of the file is hardly a walk in the park...

[qqwref]

It's easy to explain - FFR difficulties work just like the US economy. The difficulties inflate a bit every year, but your skill doesn't, so your standard of playing keeps going up. Soon most of us will be on the street begging for perfects ;)

[igotrhythm]

And this is why we keep going back--so our skill continues to keep up with difficulty inflation.

[who_cares973]

this is a 10 stop bitching everyone

[TC_Halogen]

this is a 10 stop bitching everyone

^ x100

(reasoning above)

[AlexDest]

Yeah, Camel doesn't have enough density for it to be an 11.

No.